Keith_b

Hi Muu/ Benzdude,

By using Nav zen tv and helix v8/v12, does it means that you take the Burmester amp/dsp out of the system? Will the new system be able to play surround like it means to be?

i have new Mercedes coming with Burmester 15 speakers. Wanna upgrade the system while keep it 7.1 to archive proper 2 seats tune.

i've been reading quite a lot. Came through this article from Musicar NW about upgrading premium Dsp sound system.
Basically, he suggest to keep the Original dsp/amp as a pre-amp and only use it upmixer. Then use aftermarket dsp/amp to drive speakers. Like Match or Helix V12.

https://www.adrenalineautosound.com/...enter-channel/

Is it the same thing you guy doing here? Abit confusing because you guys seem to take the burmester completely out.

Keith_b

What im trying to do with the car is to upgrade all the speakers, feed it bigger power (new amp) but retain Original burmester amp/dsp to keep the surround function. Like this commend from other thread:

''In theory, it seems like you could just tap the signal off the factory amplifier (to retain all the Logic 7 programming), and then send that to external amplifiers and better speakers. I don't even think you'd need a DSP - you'd just line converters with the ability to adjust the gain for each channel.

In reality, I have a hunch that swapping the speakers would change the dynamics of the system, and skew the Logic 7 programming.

In essence, you'd be replacing each and every speaker with a better quality, and adding more power (amplification) to drive the new speakers. The 'logic' in the Logic 7 system is probably programmed into the factory amplifier (maybe the head unit, but probably the amp). Either way, you would need to tap the signal (all 14 of them) off the stock amplifier, and run that into a multitude of external amplifiers, then feed that into aftermarket speakers. Same Logic 7 source signal, just amplified and driven into better quality speakers.

Seems simple, but as I mentioned above, I suspect that changing the speakers would also change the overall dynamics of the system, since all the original Logic 7 testing and programming was done around the characteristics of the stock amp/speakers.

I get what you're saying; reinventing the wheel versus diminishing returns... seems like a lot of work, for what isn't a guarantee of success. This is why I am such an advocate for the Mobridge unit. Granted, it only produces a 2-channel stereo signal, but it is an absolutely pure signal. It's like designing a system with a 'clean slate'. Kinda like trying to decide whether to invest a pile of money into remodelling a 50 year old house, or taking that same money and just building a brand new house. In the end, you'll get a get a nice new home, going either route - but it's a LOT less headache to build from scratch, rather than doctoring something that is existing."

benzdude

I did mine in stages as I learned.

First I just added a trunk sub (kept factory amp), then replaced and tuned 6 channels F L/R, R L/R and F LW/RW (kept factory amp), Then I moved to replacing all channels with a V12 DSP.

It's your choice.

1. You can leave the factory amp in place, add a JL FIX 82/86 to flatten the signal (optional) and/or use a DSP AMP to flatten and tune the audio to speakers. If you leave the center and surround channels on the factory AMP, your movie audio is not affected much. You will lose fading in this scenario since input audio is only from fronts + subs summed to stereo.
2. OR Remove the factory AMP, use a NAV TV ZEN-M, add a DSP AMP to tune the audio to speakers. The ZEN-M lets you input channels via TOSlink and RCA simultaneously. Put the TOSlink for fronts and RCA for rears and rear surrounds. You retain fading and surround audio. (according to the diagram below)

Which new Mercedes with 15 speakers? Make sure its listed on the compatibility list for Zen M.

BTW, you can tweak your distances (timing) to place audio (vocals) exactly where you want them. I use my center channel.

benzdude

The new Helix Amps can do IOR. It's your choice.

https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/k...tech-talk/ior/

Keith_b

Hi,

The surround sound system in car is actually not for movies. It is for better music. I quote Andy Wehmeyer here:

"Better Stereo. Logic 7 and all other upmixers are designed to upmix a simple stereo signal into multichannel. Ambient sounds in the music are steered to the side and to the rear to increase stage width and depth as well as better reproduce a room. Left right and center steering are used to firmly plant the center image in the center for ALL of the passengers.

That's why. It isn't for movie playback.

Unfortunately, the OE system is tuned to put the center image directly in front of each passenger, there isn't enough power and there often isn't enough bass."

i'm afraid none of those 2 choices u mentioned is what im trying to find out.

My car is 2021 g63. Last time i check Zen M is suitable.

Keith_b

Oh, so does it mean: Burmester => Helix v12 => new speakers?
simple as that? No need for Zen M?

Muu

So basically you have two routes here:

A - Keep the OEM amp and use it as a decocder and the v twelve sits between the OEM channel output and speaker to provide marginally more grunt. You can 'de-eq' the inputs to the helix if you want to remove the factory curves to run different speakers, for example the focal drop in kit sounds hideous with the factory EQ still in place.

B - Use a Zen-M in place of the amp which then gives you the same channels but as a line level output without any speaker compensation curves. Content channel by channel will be the same just flat in its EQ curve and cleaner without the extra amp stage.

So yes the Zen-M is completely optional, but provides a cleaner signal path. Focus on my car is a solid stereo performance so I like the idea of keeping the source in the digital domain all the way to the DSP, and cutting out any unwanted factory EQ I'd then need to counteract.

Each to their own when it comes to 'up-mixing', my home Lexicon processor and the car support logic 7 and to my ears it just sounds like a layer of cheap reverb effects. I know ambisonics and psychoacoustics have come on a long way but the vast majority of music is mixed and mastered in stereo, so I listen to it as it's intended,

As for not time aligning 7.1 I'm not sure the reasoning, ultimately a cars driver seat is a pretty awful place to run surround sound given you're too close to the front stage, sat equidistant between the center and one of the front mains (depending on LHD RHD). However in the studio spaces I've built, unless you're getting your speaker placement in a perfect arc you'll always time align to phase align the sub 500hz - be it with a Trinnov or something like GLM. Time / phase alinging all the channels is only going to be a good thing, that is unless they're already aligned and you're just throwing them out by double adding the distance factor.

Keith_b

Hi,

in route B, do you still run central speaker? Will driver seat and passenger seat experience same sound experience?

Thanks.

benzdude

Someone correct me if i am wrong, but you can run the center and still have a different experience for driver and passenger due to timing. However, I place vocals in the center of the dash in my setup.

Muu

Interestingly the V Twelve is only 12 chan input on the high level side, you could do 7.1 by running the LR optically from the Zen-M and C SL SR SBL SBR LFE on the 6 RCA inputs.

Looking at the G63 it has 16 drivers from 10 channels:

Seems to break down as:
1 - roof tweeter - CHAN1
2 - Roof mid - CHAN1
3 - Left tweeter - CHAN2
4 - Left mid - CHAN2
5 - Left Woofer CHAN3
6 - Right tweeter CHAN4
7 - Right mid CHAN4
8 - Right Woofer CHAN5
9 - Rear Left tweeter CHAN6
10 - Rear Left mid CHAN6
11 - Rear Right tweeter CHAN7
12 - Rear Right mid CHAN7
13 - Surround Left CHAN8
14 - Surround Right CHAN9
15 - Subwoofer CHAN10

Muu

Taken from the blurb:

"By individually adjusting the listening position, the Burmester Surround Sound System takes individual seat occupancy into account. "

They're already time aligning

Muu

A&B will feed each speaker the same content, reverb and all, only difference is the A path will have a high voltage signal with factory EQ curves applied, whereas B will be line level voltage with no curves.

Keith_b

I understand different route now. A bit confuse here. In normall after market upgrade, they only run left/right speaker. Here we still keep central mid/tweeter.

Do you run central speaker with your route B upgrade, Muu? why/why not use central speaker in this case?

Could you post ur plan drawing diagram? Look like ur system and mine pretty much the same. Thanks a ton.

Muu

Do you know what speakers you'll want to run?

Can do some schematics tomorrow (late now here in UK)

Yes I run a center, going to try it out but fear it'll head for the bin in exchange to run the tweeters active, maybe some md102 like in my GT3

Keith_b

at first i want to use utopia M 3 ways set. But just today when i realize it might be better to use central speaker for 2 seat tuning purpose, those speakers wont be suitable anymore as i only can buy it as a pair. Thus im thinking Audiofrog now.

In case i keep central speaker on roof. Does it mean the sound stage will raise high to the middle point for both seats? Will it be somewhere in middle of 1 and 2 speaker?
I've told that it is pretty complicated to tune 2 seats set up.

I want to run all active, so i need 15 channels, add 1 more supp, it is 16 chanels. Use zen M to zapco V 16 channels. Is it sounds right?

Muu

Had a sleep on this. I think you need to try the logic 7 / upscaled surround to see if it actually adds to the experience for you. Personally I find out robs the system of rhythm and snap, drums become muddy with all the ambient reverb and my brain doesn't go "wow I'm in a concert hall" but rather "damn that's a load of reverb smeared over this track".

From there you can engineer a solution based on either a symmetrical surround approach where you use the same drivers all round (crucial in immersive systems), or you bias your attention and funds to the front stage.

I do have a center speaker with a mode switch up front, mode 1 being a family setup designed around a 2 seat tune with the center processed in the helix, mode 2 being a selfish tune time aligned to me with the rears all but off.

For context I was a sound engineer by trade, but work in broadcast systems now. I do however have a preference for flat 'studio style' response, Vs the more sparkly audiophile tastes. Personally I love the dynaudio car stuff, and if I had your car I'd be rocking a complete active esotar setup 110+430+650+1200 with a standalone helix DSP and quality amps.

Keith_b

Oh, so i could have bit of world. Mode for 2 seats tune and mode for driver tune. Thats cool. Even if i chose route 1, hook the burmester straight to helix 12, i can still turn off the surround and enjoy it as 2.1 system, true?

I heard a lot of good thing about Dyn, unfortunately the tweeters too big. Cant put it in OE location.

My mind alot clearer now. Thank you guys for spending time and explain it. Appreciated.

Muu

Yeah you could go burmester amp, your chain would be:
Head Unit >> ( OE Amp: MOST150 decode >> EQ >> channel filter >> DAC >> channel amp) >> (helix amp: high level stepdown >> ADC >> de-EQ >> custom EQ >> xover >> DAC >> channel amp) >> speaker
However still feel with the money you're plowing into this it'd be nicer to have the clean signal the ZEN-M provides, no unwanted EQ and a digital path for the front stage & sub.

You could use the MD102 with the Esotar 430 & 650 no issue.

Keith_b

I still can have 2 seats tune while using Zen M, right?
Downside is losing surround.
Upside is cleaner signal hence better sound.

Will seriously consider Dyn. In case go with Dyn, i should have A-B amp then. What would the system be like? Would i still be able to have 2 seats tune mode?
Mode 2 seats tune: helix V12 drive all speakers
Mode 1 seat tune: Helix C4 drive front 3 ways? Ignore central speaker?
a bit confuse.

Muu

Zen-M supports surround, everything the factory amp can do, it does too.

With a mode switch you can have 2 setups, with a Helix Director you can have up to 9.

Depends what you wanna spend really, arguably you're beyond what a integrated DSP amp is useful for and should look at a dedicated DSP like the Ultra.

Keith_b

Haha, i should do some more reading before making another question. Thanks a lot. 🙏

Keith_b

Hi Muu,

Spend An evening listen to Esotar. Im sold. Will do actual demo tomorrow but im more than 90% sold.
Will build system from there. First is the quest to buy 1 and a half pair 🙄
Btw, would it significantly different using M102?
Thus im pretty sure on Dyn Esotar, Zen M, Helix Ultra. Still go after mid channel and 2 seats tune.
Suggest amp?
Big thanks on this Muu. Appreciated

Muu

Yeah they're like butter aren't they, so smooth. Can be played at any volume wouldn't getting harsh.

My 911 runs MD102 E430 MD172 as an active 3 way
You could make an exposed 110 work but a md102 easier, with 430 + 650 in the doors.

Amps wise, depends. You'll find the woofer the limiting factor, you'll have that at 0dB channel trim turn pull 4-6dB out of the mids to align them given equal power. The helix V12 certainly is neat, coupled with its extra outputs for a dedicated sub amp. That said be nice to have class-AB for the front stage, at least the tweeter and mids anyway. Then class D for everything else. Hence why standalone DSP are nice to mix and matCh, given funds space and time.

Keith_b

To be honest, budget is not my main concern here. I've been searching quite a while for preference system that i like. Came cross few expensive options
but something was not right. Thus i thought it would be wise to upgrade step by step. But now i think i find what i like.
This Esotar just sing so well, smoth, effortless and i feel it so relaxing and has a "high-class" sound. My vocabulary is not enough to describe it. I think im hooked. This car is a keeper, wont carry much, thus space is not limit factor neither. Now i just need to carefully chose equipment and installer. Glad you help man. Appreciated.

This is the channel has sound i like most this evening

Keith_b

My plan now is to have local installer do it. Chose right equipment, install it carefully with sound treat, right location, no rattle, etc.... And then find very good expert to do remote tune the system.