Vendors please explain the inflated pricing.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
You can buy a whole 996T 660whp turbo system installed for $12,000 or a hand full of basic bolt on parts for a E55-CLS55 
http://www.boostlogic.com/index.php?...tid=1:features
http://www.boostlogic.com/index.php?...tid=1:features
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 228
Likes: 1
From: LA, CA
CLS55 black opal
Alright, I'll bite. I can only speak to ECU work, since that is what we do.
When I was a just a customer, I felt the same way that you guys do. However, being on this side and developing our products, making them work properly, etc., costs a fair amount of R&D money. Additionally, MB/AMG computers are extremely difficult to get through the multiple layers of code protection (read high priced AMG software writer). These cars are not like tuning a Cobra with a laptop. Many domestic and Asian cars can easily be tapped into, but many of the high line products from MB, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche and BMW are not. I also will not release a product until I like the way it drives, as I do all of the development driving for our tuning.
When you take into account all the development costs, along with the limited market that we deal with, and the performance/reliability gains that we provide, I feel we are a bargain.
When I was a just a customer, I felt the same way that you guys do. However, being on this side and developing our products, making them work properly, etc., costs a fair amount of R&D money. Additionally, MB/AMG computers are extremely difficult to get through the multiple layers of code protection (read high priced AMG software writer). These cars are not like tuning a Cobra with a laptop. Many domestic and Asian cars can easily be tapped into, but many of the high line products from MB, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche and BMW are not. I also will not release a product until I like the way it drives, as I do all of the development driving for our tuning.
When you take into account all the development costs, along with the limited market that we deal with, and the performance/reliability gains that we provide, I feel we are a bargain.
So polite for being a vendor. You forgot to point out that benz owners are pain in the *** customers.
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 937
Likes: 1
From: Long Island, NY
SL63
Alright, I'll bite. I can only speak to ECU work, since that is what we do.
When I was a just a customer, I felt the same way that you guys do. However, being on this side and developing our products, making them work properly, etc., costs a fair amount of R&D money. Additionally, MB/AMG computers are extremely difficult to get through the multiple layers of code protection (read high priced AMG software writer). These cars are not like tuning a Cobra with a laptop. Many domestic and Asian cars can easily be tapped into, but many of the high line products from MB, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche and BMW are not. I also will not release a product until I like the way it drives, as I do all of the development driving for our tuning.
When you take into account all the development costs, along with the limited market that we deal with, and the performance/reliability gains that we provide, I feel we are a bargain.
When I was a just a customer, I felt the same way that you guys do. However, being on this side and developing our products, making them work properly, etc., costs a fair amount of R&D money. Additionally, MB/AMG computers are extremely difficult to get through the multiple layers of code protection (read high priced AMG software writer). These cars are not like tuning a Cobra with a laptop. Many domestic and Asian cars can easily be tapped into, but many of the high line products from MB, Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche and BMW are not. I also will not release a product until I like the way it drives, as I do all of the development driving for our tuning.
When you take into account all the development costs, along with the limited market that we deal with, and the performance/reliability gains that we provide, I feel we are a bargain.
Rennetech is a good example because the high prices reflect superior engineering. Just like the Germans who love to over engineer everything.
At our company we outsource all engineering ( electronics & plastics ) and pay $200/hr for regular engineers and $300/hr for supervisory time to review the work of their $200/hr employees.
Example:
R & D $25,000 to develop a product over the course of several months and one prototype $3000. ($28,000)
First 200 pieces of say a Rennetech module
$750 cost and a sell price of $1395
200 X $750 = $150,000 + $28,000 (R&D) = $178,000
200 x $1395 = $279,000
36.2% GP before expenses like advertising, salaries, rent etc.
So there is a large risk of capital for a modest return.
The TAM for MB-AMG mods per 55 or 63 model is in the hundreds not thousands of units.
This weeks example is the Evosport pully I ordered
the first week of July... arrived yesterday, September 2.
Turns out they only make a dozen or so per month and I had to wait: https://mbworld.org/forums/cls55-amg...-progress.html
Another example is this thread, sold a dozen or so after months of build up (pent up demand).
https://mbworld.org/forums/cls55-amg...-diffuser.html
Most small business's have one or two products that are successful and the rest coast along filling out the product portfolio so you appear larger and more respectable to clients.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
It does not cost $25,000 to build a unequal length header.
It does not cost $25,000 to CNC a larger diameter crank pulley ring.
It does not cost $25,000 to mandrel bend a mid pipe section and cat-back exhaust systems.
Small shops in other communities have been doing this stuff for years and years. Documenting the progress on their respected forums and offering the parts to their customers at a fraction of the prices i have seen here. Vendors charge what they charge because they view MB owners as uninformed, clueless enthusiasts who willing to spend large amounts of money. Simply because they have no frame of reference as to what these parts actually are supposed to cost.
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 937
Likes: 1
From: Long Island, NY
SL63
Your talking about mechanics versus engineers. I prefer to buy engineered products made by reputable companies that do extensive testing.
My point is that engineering costs money but adds value with superior results in our cars while eliminating flaws found in mechanic designed systems.
.
My point is that engineering costs money but adds value with superior results in our cars while eliminating flaws found in mechanic designed systems.
.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
Your talking about mechanics versus engineers. I prefer to buy engineered products made by reputable companies that do extensive testing.
My point is that engineering costs money but adds value with superior results in our cars while eliminating flaws found in mechanic designed systems.
.
My point is that engineering costs money but adds value with superior results in our cars while eliminating flaws found in mechanic designed systems.
.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,764
Likes: 9
From: Blasting off!
CLS63 Designo Edition, Hyundai Genesis 3.8 , Veloster Turbo, CLS500(Sold), E320 (SMOKED) R500 (Sold)
Good questions and observations.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
7 Craziest Things AMG Gas Ever Built
Verdad Gallardo
New Electric Mercedes-AMG GT 4-Door Coupe Unveiled: 10 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
6 Mercedes Models That Did NOT Age Well (But Are Somehow Still Cool)
Verdad Gallardo
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
No the mind numbing ignorance of your sentence actually made me feel dumber after reading it. You clearly have no *clue* what you're talking about. Some of these *mechanics* as you ignorantly put it. Have made more power than anything in the MB world will ever make. These *mechanics* engineer parts that work from their experience at the track, and in competition. You know the stuff the real enthusiasts care about. These *mechanics* have gone 246mph at the Texas mile and these *mechanics* have made north of 1700 whp street cars.
These mechanics create parts that offer maximum performance and are designed based on what works best at the track and makes the absolute most horsepower on a given platform. These *mechanics* have built cars that have gone quicker faster and made more horsepower than anything in the AMG community period.
Here is a Header and Intercooler from two of those *mechanic* shops both support north of 1500hp
Here is a whole setup that's built 100% in shop by one of those *mechanics* as you say.
These mechanics create parts that offer maximum performance and are designed based on what works best at the track and makes the absolute most horsepower on a given platform. These *mechanics* have built cars that have gone quicker faster and made more horsepower than anything in the AMG community period.
Here is a Header and Intercooler from two of those *mechanic* shops both support north of 1500hp
Here is a whole setup that's built 100% in shop by one of those *mechanics* as you say.
Last edited by Full Throttle; Sep 6, 2009 at 09:55 PM.
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 937
Likes: 1
From: Long Island, NY
SL63
I was primarily talking about ECU, TCU, lowering modules etc. There is no reason for headers to cost $5,000 as you pointed out.
Some members use these cars as a daily driver and need to strike a balance between ultimate performance and streetability. Renntech parts do not void MB warranty and I assume that is that they offer this balance between performance and longevity.
Some members use these cars as a daily driver and need to strike a balance between ultimate performance and streetability. Renntech parts do not void MB warranty and I assume that is that they offer this balance between performance and longevity.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,293
Likes: 3
From: So Cal
2018 E63S Wagon
Comparison between AMG performance parts prices & Mustang parts prices is ludicrous. The sheer number of Mustangs in existence vs AMGs should alone indicate what the price difference will be. Then add to that the number of AMG owners who actually mod their cars...the number gets even smaller. No vendor forces the customer to pay the asking price. If it's too expensive, don't buy it.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
Comparison between AMG performance parts prices & Mustang parts prices is ludicrous. The sheer number of Mustangs in existence vs AMGs should alone indicate what the price difference will be. Then add to that the number of AMG owners who actually mod their cars...the number gets even smaller. No vendor forces the customer to pay the asking price. If it's too expensive, don't buy it.
If it's too expensive, don't buy it
Exactlt right. I will not pay top dollar for low grade low quality parts that look like they were *engineered* in someones basement.
Last edited by Full Throttle; Sep 8, 2009 at 10:15 AM.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 680
Likes: 0
From: MARYLAND
14-F Sport, 07-CLS63 2003-HUMMER 2004-Suburban 2008-MAX 2005-YZF R1
Full Throttle..... has a point! I also have notice when someone comes out with a competitive product/price they get bashed alot or someone tries to say a negitive comment to keep the high prices.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
I think we both see the writing on the wall. As prices continue to drop. More and more younger enthusiasts will begin buying E55's. Vendors that support other *similar* platforms will begin to take notice. At that point it will be game over for the $4000 header sellers. These guys better get it while it last. I will be keeping my baby stock until the real players step up to the plate.
Regarding engineering, i was looking at the area between the radiator and the bumper support on my CLS. The area is HUGE why vendors are still building soda can sized H/E is behind my realm of understanding. Knowing heat soak is a huge issue with these cars. You would think that these *engineers* would stuff the largest core possible in these cars, maybe someone will
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Plus there are reason why and why not you would buy from a certain company.
For instance, I would not buy a Greddy intercooler because at high horsepower, high boost applications the end tanks split and turns the intercooler into a pile of scrap.
Last edited by SteelCitySupra; Sep 8, 2009 at 11:48 AM.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
It's mercedes tax. The same goes for Vipers, Porsches, Lambos etc... If you have a 100k car you feel more comfortable putting a $1000 exhaust on it than some $200 chinese exhaust. Even though they may perform the same, most people dont want the cheap **** on their cars... If they charge more they feel they gain "quality" because of the price.
Plus there are reason why and why not you would buy from a certain company.
For instance, I would not buy a Greddy intercooler because at high horsepower, high boost applications the end tanks split and turns the intercooler into a pile of scrap.
Plus there are reason why and why not you would buy from a certain company.
For instance, I would not buy a Greddy intercooler because at high horsepower, high boost applications the end tanks split and turns the intercooler into a pile of scrap.
Last edited by Full Throttle; Sep 8, 2009 at 12:25 PM.
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
MB owners are in fact putting low quality parts on their cars and paying top dollar for them. I guess it also depends what you consider high horse power. I have not seen one E55/CLS55 making north of 550whp. All the Terminator H/E, headers..ect support north of that for a fraction of what MB parts cost. But you know better than anyone that sometimes even the high dollar stuff can last only one pass down the Track
. I agree, its a shame that 1) people are putting cheap parts on a mercedes 2) That manufactures are eliminating that buying group from purchasing higher end products because of their price tag. Also keep in mind how many cobras there are running around out there. Those products can be produced in mass quanities. The AMG market is just a tad smaller...
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
My high horsepower standards are a little higher than normal . I agree, its a shame that 1) people are putting cheap parts on a mercedes 2) That manufactures are eliminating that buying group from purchasing higher end products because of their price tag.
Also keep in mind how many cobras there are running around out there. Those products can be produced in mass quanities. The AMG market is just a tad smaller...
. I agree, its a shame that 1) people are putting cheap parts on a mercedes 2) That manufactures are eliminating that buying group from purchasing higher end products because of their price tag. Also keep in mind how many cobras there are running around out there. Those products can be produced in mass quanities. The AMG market is just a tad smaller...
Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
I agree but im not sure there are that many more 2003-2004 cobras globally than there are K55 E55's and CLS55's. This market is global, and this community is starving for real cost effective solutions for their cooling and horse power needs. Im sure you have looked at your CLS extensively. We have a huge area in the font bumper and behind the core supper for a massive heat exchange that will eliminate all the cooling issue that the stock blower is creating. These things are only running about 13psi with full exhaust tops even with the largest pulley available. The cross section of most the the H/C in this community is no larger than a soda can, and they are very narrow. However i do agree this community is smaller but im still seeing better pricng for low run number cars like GTR's other semi exotic cars.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 971
Likes: 1
From: D.C. METRO AREA
CLS55 AMG
I haven’t looked into the issue very much and not aware of the actual available dimensions. If it is just a air/air cooler then I would suggest just grabbing a small spearco core and having someone weld on the end tanks/brackets. Could be done for under $800 and provide more than enough cooling!
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,293
Likes: 3
From: So Cal
2018 E63S Wagon
Fair enough. Cherry picking the 03-04 Cobra market as comparison I can see your point. The "Mercedes tax" does show when pricing some of the items you mentioned. Best of luck w/your mods and the pricing, I'm right behind you wanting more equal pricing (it'd be easier on my wallet too) but I'm not holding my breath.
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 937
Likes: 1
From: Long Island, NY
SL63
year model sold vehicles
2004 E55 3,218
2005 E55 2,214
2006 E55 1,187
2007 E63 1,353
- - - - - - - - - -
2006 CLS55 2,765
2007 CLS63 699
https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...0&d=1211727371
GTR
2008 1,730
2009 2,400 (estimated)
http://nissangtrclub.com/showthread.php?t=2139
http://www.2009gtr.com/2009/02/january-gt-r-sales.html
.
2004 E55 3,218
2005 E55 2,214
2006 E55 1,187
2007 E63 1,353
- - - - - - - - - -
2006 CLS55 2,765
2007 CLS63 699
https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...0&d=1211727371
GTR
2008 1,730
2009 2,400 (estimated)
http://nissangtrclub.com/showthread.php?t=2139
http://www.2009gtr.com/2009/02/january-gt-r-sales.html
.
