tzenri

Hey Fellas,

I was scouring the past threads to see what I can do to upgrade the stock HK system in my CLS55 without changing the head unit. I only have a basic understanding of audio components and some brand name recognition so I figured I'd post here in the CLS55 forum as well as the Audio / Electronics section to elicit some opinions. I noticed a lot of folks in this forum have gone with Reus with various results and opinions. I kind of wanted to run my own setup instead of going with Reus so that I could spend more on the components as opposed to their proprietary parts and installation process. I wanted to keep the system relatively simple (dropping in some speakers into existing ports; no major cutting / drilling) with a budget of $2k-$2,500 inclusive of installation. My music tastes vary across different genres but I do want a sub box that can handle low bass tones that will rock the interior (used to run two JL 12s back in the days and probably don't need that much anymore - I think) A local store in my area quoted me the following:

Amplifier
ARC Audio KS900.6 - $599 (This is a 6 channel amp at 550 watt. Power output RMS @ 4 ohms: 4 x 60 watts. Power output RMS @ 2 ohms: 4 x 100 watts. Should i be running a dedicated amp for the sub?)

Front Speakers
Hertz HSK165.4 - $399 (Are there any comparable speakers that are cheaper?)

Rear Speakers
Hertz ESk 165 - $209

Processors
Arc SRI - $129
Arc KEQ5 - $129 (May prefer to change to an equalizer with display and presets; any recommendations here?)

Subwoofer
Image Dynamic IDQ12D2 - $229 (an enclosed box with one 12" sub)

Total on parts = 1694. With install should be about $2K

Are there any components that i'm missing here that i need to ask about? (i.e. Hi low converter, battery capacitor, cooling fans, etc). Do you guys think this is a decent set up for the price and my needs? I plan on going to their sound room but it always sounds so different after it's actually installed in your car. Any pointers, recommendations or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

- TZ

Jocampo

Def a capacitor....

azncarjunkie

The capacitor debate is an old one and over at diyaudio is pretty much no longer a consideration as most good amplifiers will have a good power supply in there. Save your money as the power that you're running can't possibly be too much of a drain on the stock power system. IDQ is nice and efficient which makes it easier too.

I got lazy on my install and it's still all in boxes yet to be put in .

dyno will probably chime in on this one.

dyno

frankly, seems to me that the upgrade the OP has in mind is not that more powerful than the stock HK which is around 440Watts, while the latest comand yields about 510W, iirc.

further, going with another processor means loosing the Logic7.1 feature ..
I know that true audiphiles love the simple stereo sound but I like a lot, instead, the Logic7 processing

... without even saying that I don't like the idea of boosting the speaker level signal

you could get the digital audio signal from the MOST system by adding a device like the one made by MotusLab who set asleep the stock audiogateway and makes itself the processing, while giving you pre-outs ..
it has been tested in my car because my guys insisted for installing it but , again, I told I don't want to loose the Logic7 feature ..

therefore, as I overcame the pre-out problem with a custom made electronics, I will stay with my Logic7 AND preouts, even without the possibility of control on each channel ... till a BIT1 thing with the Logic feature will come out ...

if you already browsed the forum you should have find a thread ( something like "Audio Upgrade ..") where I posted several times

btw, the overall audio quality has been finely enough tuned in this car by Harman technicians ..
sure, current and future developments among mercedes and JBL/Harman promise much more http://www.automotive.harmankardon.c...ons/index.aspx

and here details for Mercs and others

http://www.automotive.harmankardon.com/en/index.aspx


I think that if you want much more, 2K are not enough ..

If I were you, I would do the following:
- replace the tweeters with better items .. and here, the option I still regret of not having installed is the upgraded AMG tweeters you see here



I have them (indeed because I loved and still love their AMG housing) but unfortunately even the housing could not host my "Morel Supremo" tweets

that is the so called E02 Option, which also include an upgraded amp with 700W specifically developed for this car ... therfore, if you want more without going for multimillion system .. you could always upgrade also the amps by installing that whole E02 upgrade.

Tweets are very important, especially in a 2-way system because it obviously lacks a bit in the midrange tones (which must be performed by stretching the performance of midlows and tweets at their respective limits) .. therefore, having good tweets become crucial..

I installed a third-way in the doors, but it is more a mid-low (it is a Morel Hybrid ovation 4") and did not install their true midrange Md88 (which I also have and tested) because the combined top level performance of my Supremo Tweet and Supremo 6and1/2 in the bottom allowed me to do that ...




maybe you could also upgrade the center speaker by installing, for example, the same sized Hertz H70 wich is a full range (they should cost less than 100euros per pair)

then, the SUB: without cutting anything, you need an item within 26cm diameter and 7cm high: I have seen a few things in that range; even Morel makes one with that size - ADMW - is called ... obviously you will not get the same result as by installing an Ultimo Sub .. but that's a lot of work

therefore, I would replace the stock mid-low speakers in the doors as the last step

.. I was forgetyting your question about CAPs
their ability to deliver energy very quickly ( because they have a much lower ESR resistance than your battery) would help if you install very high power amps (who usually have capacitors inside. but modern classD amps, which are small in size, hardly can host a good enough cap inside ..)
sometime it is difficult to perceive a true improvement from use of CAPs and there's a long debate on forums , ... but they are nice and even if their help in SPL application is negligible, it has been proved their benefit at stabilising the system voltage and, consequently, at reducing distortions into the audio induced by magnetic fields created by high voltage fluctuations ...

tzenri

Thank you guys for the replies. I'll definitely run more power to the system and will look at d-class amps and run a cap to be safe. Now I just need to search for an installer that does reputable work here in Orange County, CA. I've called a few places that told me that they don't install for Mercedes and i'm glad they came straight out to tell me.

tzenri

Hey Guys,

I talked to multiple shops in the SoCal area about my audio upgrade and I've received a lot of different feed back along with a range of quotes. I was so unhappy with the stock sound that I was ready to jump on a full system upgrade. All the shops I spoke to were happy to quote a full system upgrade that ranged anywhere between $4500-$8500.

The shop I ended up going with actually talked me out of the full system upgrade and suggested a simple sub swap to start. These guys really took the time to find out what I wanted and we even demo'd the owner's vehicle that was set up for sound quality on Dynaudio's high end stuff. So in the end I'm starting with a simple subwoofer install and will go from there. The shop is going to do a custom sub enclosure that will fit snug behind the rear seats. The speakers will face the trunk opening and the stock sub will be removed to create a port to the cabin. There should be enough room to where I can still access the spare tire if I needed to and the rear deck will have Dynamat installed. I'm going with:

(2) 12" JL Audio 12W3V3
(1) JL HD750/1 Amp
(1) Hertz HL70 center channel speaker (stock speaker crackles at certain frequencies)

with a simple bass control knob installed down by the dynamic seat controller. I'm told that this system should rock and later on if i still feel the need to do more I'll swap out the front speakers for some Dynaudios top end stuff to complete the front sound stage. I'll keep you guys posted on the completed install and feedback on the sound.

TZ

dyno

ms-8 has finally been released by jbl/harman !

you could ask for a demo with that thing, keeping everything stock and just connecting it to your speakers' wires coming out of the audiogateway in the trunk...

[IMG][/IMG]

I am testing it in these days but cannot help telling you what is the improvement on a stock system because mine is far enough from stock, as I don't have stock speakers nor amps

but can tell you it is a nice gear and enjoyable to tweak, especially for a non-audio fanatic like me, and it is maybe the only bolt on thing who can make the biggest difference ... without having to dismantle the whole car !

tzenri

Dyno - thanks for the feedback; going to swap the center channel with the hertz speaker you recommended. Is this JBL processor any different from the Bit1?

dyno

yes, Center swap is easy and you'll not regret.

Ms-8 has 8 powered amps embedded but you'll still need a specific, more powerful amp for the sub to attach to it. i would try fitting the amp first and, if not happy, replace the sub, AFTER.

doors' speaker replacement are not that necessary. maybe at fronts only ... and, again, I already told you to just fit a good tweeter if not happy.
.. I still have AMG tweets if you'll ever need


ms-8 is quite another thing with respet to bit1.

- first is compatible with oem head units because it includes signal cleaning & summing. Second is not and requires those additional devices all times you don't have pre-outs from your radio giving a full-range and flat signal .

- first is an "auto tuning machine" with a limite dnumber of manual regulations; secon is a full manual machine with (theoretically) much more tweaking possibilities . but you have to know how to ! and you need to keep on tweaking continuously which is a thing I personally do not like. then, it goes without saying that you can do your homeworks much quicker with an electronic calculator than with a manual one ...

- first has Logic7,1. second has not.

- fisrt has 8 embedded amps (if you want to use them for those of your speakers less important for you, and connect more powerful external amps only wher eyou really want them)

for example, my installer, which is a Master Audison guy, obviously prefers the bit1. .. also because he is still religious with plain "stereo" systems, without any center channel or logic7.
Me, not.

if you need, here you have an enough concise deeper explanation and review
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1054297-post1.html


full compatibility with our car needs still to be checked.
I am referring to compatibility of hands free telephon and bluetooth.

tzenri

Cool Dyno - i checked out the ms-8 manual but still have some questions. from your earlier post, by embedded amps do you mean that this processor boosts the existing amp by additional wattage?

my car is at installer today and should be done in a couple of days. If this does boost stock speaker watts then I'll probably just get this and replace front speakers with some dynaudios for part 2. if you install ms-8 do you plan on installing the screen somewhere? if so where would you put it?

dyno

no, its (8) amps will work in substitution of stock amps.
further, their power is the same as our Logic7 Audiogateway because the amps into ms-8 are made with exactly the same integrated chips as ours. (ms-8 is still a product by Harman ..)
.. but you have the choice to bypass the embedded amp and add more powerful external amps to the channel you want ! (namely, the Sub)
In my case, I m not going to use any of embedded amps.

I am installing ms-8 and about the display, options are for the ashtray or somehow into the drink storage in the central console (preferred).
but need to find a location for the main ms-8 unit ..

tzenri

So in my case using the embedded amp will not give me additional power over the stock amp (due to wattage being the same) but will have added benefit of equalizer settings and tuning controls.

I'll be sure to ask about the MS-8 when i go pick up my vehicle; see what my installers think of it. Looking at the size of the processor will probably just install in trunk. I'd be interested in seeing where you ultimately install the display.

dyno

it has 8 amplified outputs, AND 8 pre-outs ... so you could be able , for the first time, to connect an amplifier to each channel, if you want to !
and this is for the first time because, till yesterday, you could only connect 8 boosters, not 8 amplifiers.
( except you did some particular mod on the audiogateway as I did)

true that in case you will use the embedded amps you will not get mor epower, BUT you'll be left with .. neither a feature less than before, and a lot more things to play with than before: X-overs, time alignement and auto-acoustic calibration, 31-bands Equalizer ..
ther eisn't any other device out there that would leave you with neither a feature less than before.

when asking your installer, just make sure he already tested one himself ..

as I told you, I begun playing with it and I believe it is simply an enjoyable thing

yes, the trunk .. fact is that I already have 6 additional amplifiers fitted there

about display, the best permanent fitting is maybe the ashtray
... something along thes elines


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

but I don't want to giv eup to my ashtray (even if I do not use it)

I am thinking at a non-permanent fitting for the display
best would be instead of that weird device for drinking in the center console. but again want to keep it, too. therefore I already told my installer to study a way for a non-permanent fitting of the display inside there.

tzenri

Thanks for all the feedback Dyno! So I got my car back today and it absolutely rocks!! For those that are interested in maximizing your audio potential read the following:

I had the stock sub removed and had 2 12" JLW3 installed in a non ported box powered by a 750 watt JL HD amp mounted to the rear deck. The box sits right behind the rear seat and I'm still able to access the battery and spare tire with no modifications to the floor board. Sound deadening was installed on the rear deck, trunk and license plate frame. I also swapped out the center speaker and the front stage sounds excellent now. As for the subs I think the 2 12s were a bit much. I definitely enjoy feeling the subs but for increased musicality I think 2 10s would have a been better choice. If I max out the bass knob the 12s overpower the front stage and rattles the entire cabin. The bass knob was installed off the dynamic seat control for accessibility; very ergonomic - recommended by a forum member. You should be able to accomplish all of this for a little over $1,500. The only other items I may add would be complete sound deadening of the front doors and swapping out the tweeters. If I could swap out the front door subs I'd probably do that too, however, my installer informs me that the stock amp setup will not take after market speakers since they are (or aren't?) full range. Basically requires a processor and additional amp to make a noticeable difference. For those of you who were looking to gain a lot of sound without going all out this is definitely the way to go.

Dyno - My installer noticed that the rear fill speakers next to the stock sub are the same size as the center speaker up front. Because the Hertz speakers come in pairs I have one left over from the center speaker replacement. Do you think swapping out the two filler speakers on the rear deck is worth the trouble? I would basically need to buy another speaker which would only run an extra $60 bucks + install. The center swap absolutely made a difference so I'm wondering if swapping the rears would make it better as well.

dyno

nice install


yes, rear surrounds are same size, but they are less in use than center is. you can hear them especially if you listen with Logic7 on.

imo, if you still have your deck open, it is worth the swap of them also ... should you decide a day to pump everything up with some more watts

(I have put there a pair of 4" Integra ovation coax).


ps: those in front doors are not subs but mid-lows, and together with tweets they put out a full enough signal.

tzenri

Thanks man,

I personally like the LOGIC 7 setting over stereo setting (sounds much better IMO) so i just might swap the rear fill. I'll let you know if it has an effect when I do. Thanks for the correction on mid lows I was aware of that . Now i just got save some funds for some wheels.

dyno

just wanted to let you all know that FULL functionality of JBL MS-8 is still to be proven on our stock audiogateway.


I got it to work, but my AGW is far from stock.
more details here, by TPMS:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ml#post1075771

Esleeper

Tzenri,

Where did you take your car to?


Thanks.

tzenri

The shop is called All Star Sound in Long Beach. You can ask for either John or Jay. I was so happy with the job that i put up my first yelp review. You should check it out - they have 5 star ratings from all their customers (unheard of for mobile audio shops). Give them a call for a quote and let them know that Taro sent you. They will match internet pricing up to the day of your install (authorized dealers). They'll hook you up either way but nice to be able to recommend the shop to a fellow member.

cainrednose

Hey tzenri,

How did you integrade the HL70 into your Harmon karden system? I have an 08 c350 and i am getting 2 12w3v3 with the 750.1 HD amp. Did you need to get another amp for the hertz speaker? And did you look at any other types of speakers for the center channel such as JL audio or Focal?

Thanks

tzenri

Hey Rednose,

The HL70 is powered off the stock HK system. Just swap it right out, doesn't need extra juice. Your subs should sound good in your c350 as long as you have a port to the cabin. I didn't look at any other speakers - the Hertz HL70 was basically a perfect fit in terms of dimensions. Recently I've been listening to music in standard mode over surround but I don't regret swapping the center as the stock center was crackling. Now that I've had the setup for a while i'm itching to do the AMG upgrade - swap out the tweets with the additional amp (see earlier comments above from Dyno). Not sure if this is still available and how much it would run. Hope this helps.

tzenri

Dyno - I'm thinking about getting the AMG speaker upgrade. Have you actually heard the AMG E02 tweeter and amp upgrade before you swapped out for after market speakers? I'm thinking about getting them and was wondering if there was a noticeable difference at low, mid and high volume vs. stock speakers.

cainrednose

hey thanks tz,

Helps a lot. I have one issue tho. I haven't heard any crackling coming from my HK center speaker yet. However, if there is a big difference in sound quality by adding the Hertz center, I may go ahead with that option. So if you remember from before you heard crackling in the center, to now having the Hertz as your center speaker, did you hear a major upgrade in sound quality and clarity? Or is it negligible? Thanks and appreciate your help.

If you find out where to get the AMG upgrade as well, let me know. I won't do it now but good thing to know down the line if I decide to upgrade my whole audio system.

tzenri

the center speaker swap is not very expensive so it's up to you but based on forum posts on CLS vehicles your center speaker will end up crackling. if you are budget conscious i'd say wait until it starts crackling before replacing it. The swap in center does provide a slight improvement from stock but I now prefer listening to music in stereo mode so the center is not so important.

dyno

hi, TZenry
as i wrote in my old post I bought those tweets only because I wanted the chrome circle with AMG lettering ( indeed when I ordered them I told I wanted only the housing, without tweets .. so I was surprised to see they came with tweets).
then I understood why: the chrome circle is not removable.
in any case, that circle was not large enough so I didn't even connected them .. even if I would have wanted, just for shake .. but my installer was too busy
but they are for sure a great improvement from stock because overall size and especially the magnet is much bigger.

Should you need, I still have them in their "Original Verpackung" LOL

in any case, my opinion is that Tweeter swap is a must do.
stock tweets are standard 4Ohms ... so no problem.

if this can help you, I previously had Dynaudio tweeters installed: I was able to fit them in the stock housing after completely "undressing" the dyn tweeter and making some careful trimming on the inside of the stock housing ... and they sounded WAY better

ps: why Tweeter swap is a must ?
.. because our mid-lows are very far away in the bottom of door from the tweets.
with that kind of pathlength you need a tweeter with the widest possible range for "shortening" that un-optimal distance ... or you need to install a third Midrange speaker.