Evolution Marine

The CLS55 wins! Well, not quite that easy. After a lot of thinking and some loyalty (BMW Loyalty) issues to overcome this is my decision and how I made it.

M5
1. Awesome motor. - Not very aftermarket tunable but love the high RPM
concept - will not have the instant squirt-ability (my terminology) so
desirable to have for a street car due to the low Torque #s.
2. Awesome transmission - for pre-meditated action as opposed to instant
and spontaneous action that rules on the street.
3. Awesome chassis - very sporty, however only 2% of us are actually
capable of using all of it and then you have to be on a racecourse.
4. Edgy but acceptable Styling
5. Less than seamless and instant adaptability for drivability around town
due to the SMG trans and the less adaptable sporty suspension.

CLS55
1. Awesome motor. - Relatively easy to gain substantial performance with
aftermarket tuning because of the Super Charger configuration - low
RPM & high Torque concept better suited to every day driving because of
the ability of the 55 motor to INSTANTLY react to throttle input in
any situation that arises by applying LARGE amounts of TORQUE, gives the
CLS55 tremendous Squirt-ability.
2. Awesome transmission - Instant reaction to any situation while it
maintains quick and seamless drivability around town, and it still has finger tip
control, at the steering wheel, when your feeling sporty.
3. Awesome chassis - very smooth, adaptable, and can handle any situation
that 98% of us are capable of putting it into and what would be
presented to it in any street situation.
4. Incredible leading edge styling!
5. Seamless, instantly adaptable drivability around town. Can go from a
Luxury Cruiser to Street Racer and back again in an instant

So I ordered a CLS55 - Bob

skratch77

the tuners will get 600 hp out of the m5 no problem.Nowack got 540 hp out of the old m5 and kept it NA.

BMW has said that they ran the m5 around the ring at 10,000 rpms.The csl m6 is going to be the same engine and have 550 hp.There is plenty of room to make power out of that high reving engine.Its just going to cost alot of money to get any gains.

The p400 mode says it restricks the throttle bodies by 10% and the engine looses 100hp.Just think what that thing will make if you free up the intake to flow 10% more

Just a cold air intake on the old m5 gave it 30rwhp so This one should see about the same gains if not more because of its high reving f1 design.

reggid

i believe they ran it on the test bench at 10000+rpm where they could properly monitor it.

BlackSL

i'd take the M5

vraa

Everyone has a M5. Get a CLS55.

VelocitE55

You have to consider that the M5 and the CLS55 are two completely different cars with two completely different approaches and intentions. The CLS is wall to wall luxury, class and beauty with a Herculean engine. It was never intended to be an M5 killer though it would probably beat 9 out of 10 new M5's in a straight line because the mug in the M5 is too busy trying to push the right buttons to get enough power to compete. In the CLS, full power with a serious Torque advantage (Torque wins races) is just a pedal stomp away. No fuss, no buttons or modes and no lost time....just right foot to the floor.

Yes, the M5 will hand the CLS its own *** when it gets twisty. But like I said, they are two completely different cars. The CLS doesnt handle like its on rails because it was never intended to. And the M5 will not have half of the luxury and looks that the CLS offers nor will it be as easy to go fast in spontaneously. The M5 will not be a comfortable car, it will be stiff and unnecessarily stressful to drive on city streets that are full of pot holes and traffic jams. The world isnt a racetrack as much as we all wish it was sometimes and until it is, the M5 is too much of the wrong stuff.

To each his own though. I am obviously an AMG loyalist. Both cars appeal to different crowds so I will always think comparing the two as if the CLS is MB's answer to the M5 is a little fishy because they are so different in intentions and execution.

Just my .02 cents.

Evolution Marine

skratch77 - You are absolutely correct, and when the highly talented after market tuners are finished the M5 will have $50,000.00 worth of parts and labor in it and be even edgier than it is now (the M5 OEM HP per liter is already in the stratosphere at 100 HP per liter). To increase the out- put of a normally aspirated motor 20%, to 600 HP, more air has to be moved thru it. The only options (Nitrous excluded) there are, are RPMs, Displacement, more efficient intake system, and more efficient exhaust system. Mind you, we are talking PUMP GAS performance here and the M5 is already at 12:1 compression! I think BMW has already done an excellent job on the intake and exhaust systems, So that leaves RPMs and Displacement, which again makes that motor even more high strung and edgy for the Street, especially when going for a 20% increase in HP. Also, torque is still going to be even relatively more lower compared to an after market tuned CLS55. Also, the M5 will still not be as adaptable and spontaneous as the CLS55, and the CLS55 will only have required about $15,000.00 worth after market work to get to 625+Hp and 600+ lb. Ft. of Torque. Torque is the best thing to have to be a Street Warrior, with the biggest, stickiest tire that will fit on the rear – BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KD or Michelin Pilot Sport SP2.
The M5 is an exciting car but not the STREET WARIOR the CLS55 will be.
- Bob

skratch77

I can't remember where I read it but there was an article that said it was spun to 10k on the ring at one time.

I think they bench tested it at 10.2k

You will see 600 hp out of this beast. Its begging for more air up top.BMW has so many baffles in the air system to keep this car from waking up all the neighbors.

I remember when I heard turners mclaren f1 lm rev.I cant descirbe how loud and tuned that thing sounded.It made me jump like 2 feet away from the thing because I thought it blew up.

Think of an gsxr reving and add 10 times the dbs

Evolution Marine

skratch77 - Sounds exciting, but don't forget the lack of TORQUE the M5 motor has. The STREETABILITY of the M5 N/A motor at 600 HP would be seriously jeopardized for the db reasons you mentioned and the even more peaky nature of the motor at the higher RPMs that would be required. We are talking street car here not race car! - Bob

skratch77

The lack of tourqe is just the trade off of a high reving engine.This engine is not like any other normal m power engine.Its power and tourqe curves are very f1 like.Its peak tourqe is way up there in the rpm range.

Tourqe isnt everything but a little more would be nice.Look at a modena it only has 275 lbs of tourqe and has no problems beating most cars out there.

As for how loud it is the more the better.The people in the market for an m5 dont care how loud it is they accually like it that way.

bm75204

Good choice, Bob. I'm a BMW loyalist as well --- 2 currently and 3 more in the past 7 years. My decision to order the CLS55 over an M5 was mostly based on styling (inside and out). I grabbed my '03 540i 6-speed to get one before they were all gone after seeing pics of the horrible E60. I drove one after it arrived and couldn't stand it. The M5 looks better than a standard 5, but not by enough. Then there's the plasticky, unattractive interior and the annoying I-Drive. The CLS has an emotional, sexy appeal that is lacking in most recent car designs and I'm looking forward to getting it!

VelocitE55

The Modena isnt that fast so thats a bad example. Sure, it can beat a lot of cars but when it comes to the Mercedes cars with the 5.5K motor, its almost sure to lose. It runs unimpressive acceleration times because of the lack of torque. I for one have beaten 6 on city streets to date. What does that say?

Evolution Marine

Checked the below site and found these 1/4 Mile times:

2001 & 2002 - 360 F1 - Fastest 12.2 Sec. Slowest 12.9 Sec.

2002 ZO-6 Corvette - Fastest 12.1 Sec. Slowest 12.9 Sec

2004 Porsche GT3 - 12.0 Sec

2002 Porsche GT2 - 12.0 Sec.

2004 Lamborghini Gallardo - Slowest 12.6 Sec. Fastest 12.3 Sec.

2002 & 2004 Lamborghini Marcielago -
Slowest 12.6 Sec. Fastest 11.7 Sec.

2001 Jaguar XJR - 12.8 Sec.

2004 Jaguar XJR - 13.4 Sec.

2000 Dodge Viper - 12.3 Sec.

2004 - E55 - Fastest 11.8 Sec. Slowest 12.3 Sec.

http://www.dragtimes.com/detail.php?ID=3050

CLS55 the ultimate street Warrior! - - Bob

skratch77

no one complains about the lack of tourqe in one.They still pull low 12s and only have 275 lbs of tourqe.

I would take a modena any day over any benz or bmw.

the m5 has 17 more hp and 40 more ft lbs of tourqe than the new Ferrari F430

Id take that over the m5 anyday also lol.

Evolution Marine

skratch77 - The purpose for showing the 1/4 mile E.T.s of all those two seater sports cars (XJR excepted) was to show that the CLS55 four door sedan is very competitive on the STREET with those cars. Now, I can understand how you would like the Modena 360 over the CLS55 because your needs are different than us CLS55 future owners. Your needs can be satisfied with a two door sports car, however my needs can only be satisfied by a four door sedan. In both cases our common need for performance is met and in my opinion the CLS55 will win 90% of the time over the Modena 360 or any one of the other sports cars I listed. This is so because the CLS55 will react instantly to my spontaneous desire at the time, by me just stepping on the accelerator peddle, whereas you have to push in the clutch, select the correct gear, release the clutch, and step on the accelerator peddle or with the F1 transmission you have to select the performance mode, step on the accelerator peddle and wait for the sequential trans to go down thru gears sequentially to the best gear. Mean while, the high Torque and instant down shift of the CLS55 has accelerated it out in front two to three car lengths already and again, the STREET WARRIOR that the CLS55 is, has won. The two most important characteristics of a successful Street Warrior are Torque and Instant Response and the CLS55 has an abundance of both, then comes handling and the CLS55, while not the best, is very able in 90% of the street situations that will present themselves. Oh, BTW don’t forget that the 12.2 Sec. E.T. for the 360 Modena was it’s fastest E.T. and the fastest E.T. for the E55 was 11.8 Sec. running BFG Drag Radials. - Bob

Mardeth

I for one would take the M5 as the CLS55 looks 'oldish'... I like the E55 a lot more.

I dont agree with the stuff said about daily usage and handling. 520Nm is more than enough for daily driving. Daily driving is not really aggressive so what do you need the torque for, the torque that the M5 gives is more than enough to drive comfortably without a sweat.

And the handling issue... In my opinion handling is a lot more than how many gs you get in a corner, its about the feel too. Im glad that the handling seems to be better in the CLS55 than the E55 but I would like more feel, (havent driven CLS55 yet obviously but there doesnt seem to be a revolutionary change). I believe you could achieve the feel and response without loss of comfort. So even thought you cant use all of the chassis abilities I do believe that you can still enjoy the handling in daily driving. Its not like the CLS55 will feel like a M5 for example in U-turn at junction or whatever.

VelocitE55

I couldnt agree more.

Evolution Marine

Mardeth - "Oldish"? - well I could see how you would feel that way, however I look at it as being more "Classical" with a hint of "Cool". That’s just my opinion, but in all my previous posts I was only talking about the performance characteristics of the CLS55 and the M5 because there are as many reasons to like or dislike the design of either car, which could go on and on and on.
As far as the Torque numbers go, for each of the cars, the discussion was never about what was enough Torque for the street. The discussion always centered around the STREET WARRIOR capabilities of each of the cars and how the CLS55 would be the better choice for the role. - Bob

"Classic and Cool" https://mbworld.org/forums/c219/86878-great-webpage-film-about-cls.html and https://mbworld.org/forums/c219/89640-pics-cls.html

rsteele

We polarize ourselves into car advocacy camps like democrats and republicans, when common sense lies in between. I'm on the waiting list for both the M5 and the CLS55. I have driven neither, but I don't for a minute doubt that I would enjoy owning and driving either of these cars. The M5 will incline more toward the sporting end of the spectrum and the CLS55 more toward the luxury end, but both will have plenty of luxury and sport.

I've never engaged in a "street war" with another vehicle in 45 years of driving, so chances are slim that it will ever happen. For the high torque of the Mercedes CLS55 to be a theoretical advantage over the properly chosen gear of the M5, one would have to postulate a surprise ambush of the M5 driver. The M5 driver would have to give a damn that a nearby CLS driver had just unexpectly applied maximum throttle. Such an event is so unlikely that it hardly deserves passing comment.

At present, I favor the M5, but by next week, it may be the CLS55. I'll end up choosing one of these cars on the basis of whim, without having had personal driving experience with either car. I currently own an M5, perhaps this time I'll get an AMG car. My bet is that whichever I choose, I'll love it.

Richard

cntlaw

Hi

I have the opposite view, CLS is charm.

The BM 5 series is old looking and ugly, M5 is still a 5 series.
But M5 is more famous in its name as the sportiest sedan
( of course that's before E55 was born )

It is easy to compare , imagine you compare a CLS500 and a 545i
I would get the CLS500 without doubt.

Purely my personal taste.
Cheers
cnt

Evolution Marine

rsteele - I too agree that for the chance of a CLS55 and a M5 actually being at the same point in place and time would be quite rare, however, the net result of the CLS55's "Street Warrior" capability transfers into your daily diving, even if you are not in one those rare contests, in the form of easily accessible high performance diving.
We all appreciate your safe driving habits over the past 45 years, however there are rare situations in which a modest level of competition with another performance vehicle can be accomplished safely and at no risk to anyone except those that have voluntarily participated in the contest. It is an exhilarating and fun experience and I hope that you are able to experience this yourself, at whatever level of performance you are comfortable with.
Polarize - Seems like a rather strong term to be used in this instance, when we all appreciate the performance abilities of both the CLS55 and the M5. Both cars will naturally fall into different performance categories as a result of their relative strengths and weaknesses and this is what I am trying to discuss here. No polarizing intent here!
I too am on the waiting list for the CLS55 and the M5, however as a result of my experience with high performance engines over many years and reading the Magazine articles to date on the M5, I feel the CLS55 will be a more well rounded choice for the street, for all the reasons I have mentioned in my previous posts.
BTW, how would you enjoy either of these cars? We would be interested in hearing. - Bob

rsteele

Bob,

I think that E55/CLS55 and the M5 are fairly equivalent as street racers. There is actually more torque available from the MB engine in the lower gears at full throttle than can be put to the road, but at partial throttle openings there's still a tremendous amount of available torque. The result has got to be "effortless acceleration." I suspect that these AMG cars routinely walk away from other cars at stop lights and on the highway without the sense of even having to try. It's got to be a thrill to have an engine like that at one's command. The M5 will be no slouch at partial throttle openings, but routinely taking the engine into the higher rpm range to extract that power will not result in quite the same sense of effortlessness, as pleasurable as doing so may be.

I place high value on how a car feels and behaves in the curves. I get a real kick out of safely holding a speed through curves that leaves tailgaters behind. I expect the M5 to be a little better than the CLS55 in this respect, but I have also heard that the AMG cars are better in the curves than BMW enthusiasts are often willing to concede.

It's taken me quite a while to accept the interior and exterior looks of the new M5, but I now find the M5 attractive. The high belt line of the CSL occurs at the expense of the windows, which look like barely open eyelids from the side view. I expect that when in the driver' seat there will be the sense of being enveloped by the car. The local MB dealership will permit me to have an adjustable position in the CLS55 waiting list, so that I can have a chance to see the car in the flesh and sit in it before commiting to an order. Candidly, I still prefer the appearance of the E55 over the CLS, but like the BMW, the CLS is a courageous design. I'm betting with my deposit that my appreciation for it will grow.

I actually abandoned visitation of the message board several months ago in disgust when BMW v. MB rantings (from which I abstained) became exceedingly rude. I agree with you that there has been no such "polarization" in this thread, and I've also noted that the quality of debate and the respect shown among posting members for each other has considerable improved on other threads as well. I've put the MBWorld message board back on my web browser's favorites list.

Richard

Evolution Marine

Richard - Well done! I know which ever one of the CLS55 or the M5 that you choose you will have a great car.
As far as partial throttle operation goes the M5, thru it's seven speed trans., will multiply the torque of that V10 to an equivalent torque level to the CLS55. It will just take longer (Transmission gear selection) and more throttle position to accomplish the task, hense the need for a launch control system to optimize the accelleration from a stop. However that high revving V10 will be music to your ears when doing so!
On the street I am not sure that the handling advantage that the M5 will have over the CLS55 will be useable because of the road limitations and the driving skill level of most of the M5 owners. Not that CLS55 owners will have any more driving skill than the M5 owners.
Glad to have you back on the MBWorld Discussion Forums, it is a pleasure to have a discussion with an articulate wordsmith like yourself. - Bob

GTA7.5

The CLS55 is pretty awesome. I find it amazing MB improved the performance
of this car over the E55. Congrats MB!!

MersAMG

I will probably choose a CLS55, why? Simply because interior is way better (design) than BMWs and CLS looks prettier than a BMW.