pokerFACE

question: what can be done to the C32 to mitigate these suspension "defficiencies"?

e.g., I don't think the C55 suspension can be retrofitted into the C32 can it?

KompressorKev

the track is very long too, with much room for error and variance in times. conditions, drivers, etc. and not every time they do a test is the whole track empty. they race sometimes with other cars there. if you look at some tests of the same car, they can vary a lot.

that said, i'm not trying to make any excuses. the difference is considerable, and the c55 is a fantastic car. n/a platform is always better. i think you can attribute some of the difference to the upgraded transmission. often, the c32 is in the wrong gear. i can see this being a problem especially when pulling out of corners and it is exit speed that will make a difference. the c55's instant torque, upgraded transmission to place you in more optimal rpm's, and more flexible powerband makes the c55 probably have more fluid transitions and better exit speeds, which over some 150+ turns, will make a difference over time. in addition, the c55 has a better suspension and tire setup stock. i mean yes the drivers do push them to their limits most of the time, but some of the time the level at which it is driven depends on how comfortable or confident the driver feels (due to his perception of the car - too many variables: tires, conditions, suspension feeling). the nurburgring is an awesome track but it's hard to just quote and compare times for two cars which are otherwise pretty similar in performance.

KompressorKev

i think retrofitting a c55 suspension would not be that beneficial, especially the cost invovled. the c55 suspension isn't adjustable, and is sprung for the c55 specifically. the engine is larger, and though the engines' weight are near the same, this might affect how the suspensions are sprung. you are much much better off going with something more adjustable, allowing you to tailor your needs to your specific c32's setup.

there are many things which affect handling, way too many to list. but think of it this way, your car's handling can be in essence boiled down to a few things, most prominent of which include:

- the tire, ultimately its this what is contacting the road and will move you places. you can alter the way the kinematics by which the tire will contact the road...its position/angle of contact, and how force is applied to the road so that you maintain grip

- the kinematics of the suspension, based on its geometry or physical setup and location of the parts of the chassis. you can do some things to alter the car's ability to transfer weight, and resistance to sway and roll, and the center of gravity via simple things like coilovers and sway bars. but as far as the complete geometry of the suspension, which is setup for a luxury sedan and not a sports car...within a reasonable budget, there's not much we can do about this.


the problem with the c32 suspension i think is a lot of positive camber. when making a hard turn, the contact patch of the inside tire is less than optimal. camber plates will allow you to have more negative camber. more negative camber, a more agressive tilt of the tire, allows you to have a better contact patch - and thus grip - instead of push understeer...push understeer will force you to slow down, and it messes up your line, you lose speed and thus add time here and there. in addition, coilover systems such as H&R or Bilstein PSS9 (and Carlsson C-RS) will help a lot...i noticed improved turn in sharpness and less understeer after installing H&R coilovers.

it would be interesting to see some monoball linkage and bushings, which i think would make a considerable difference in the handling. mercedes are plush, soft cars, and i bet there's a lot of rubber linkage in the suspension. replace this with metal linkage and you'll have a noiser, harsher ride but there's gonna be more direct feel, sharper responses, and also your alignemnts will be true over time. alignemnets will shift over time if you have too much rubber in the suspension, because rubber's malleable. in addition, some camber plates will allow you to change the camber and thus translate into better contact patch and grip. but then there's always the geometry / kinematics of the suspension. and then there's weight....

bottom line: the mercedes w203 platform isn't the greatest. the c32's suspension isn't great stock. placing a c55 suspension wouldn't help much, i don't think. realistically, and without completely attempting to alter the nature of the car, things that you can do that will help the c32 is:

- coilover suspension, the right alignment and make sure it's corner balanced
- sway bars
- good set of tires

things that would help but i don't think are available:
- monoball linkage (nobody makes this?)
- dialing in more negative camber (anybody make camber plates??)

ultimately, though, it comes down to the driver. the right driver can negotiate smooth transitions between turns without too much loss of speed due to friction and push understeer. taking the right line is key. but of course, easier said than done. i don't like the car's steering feel, too. its just that the C32's suspension does not make going fast easy, and its setup leaves much to be desired. some coilovers with the right alingment, sway bars, and good tires will improve the handling a lot, is feasible, and is probably good enough for the purposes and intentions of the W203 without upsetting its fundamental nature as a quick, comfortable cruiser.

KompressorKev

AWESOME could you please tell us how you remedied the camber? and to what results/specs you achieved? i'm on eagle f1 gs-d3's now and would like to put them to use thanks!

Scoop55

..another good link:http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?v...ID=0&tID=10073

Scoop55

Here's a few AMG's from the Nordschleife excluding GP track, 20.6 kms:

7:54 --- 156.456 km/h -- Mercedes CLK DTM AMG, 582bPS/1678kg, (sport auto 03/05)
8:06 --- 152.592 km/h -- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (sport auto 04/02)
8:22 --- 147.749 km/h -- Mercedes-Benz C55 (sport auto07/2004)
8:29 --- 145.697 km/h -- Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG, 347 PS/1593 kg (sport auto 05/00)
8:50* -- 139.925 km/h -- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG (sport auto ??/00)
8:51 --- 139.661 km/h -- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG, 306 PS/1571 kg (sport auto 12/01)

cntlaw

'Direct Control' has been built into the C55.
Guess this makes it a different beast from C32?

Zeppelin

Buy 10 cent apeice washers (qty 4) at a hardware store that fit the lower bolts on the front struts. Remove these four bolts and place the washers between the strut and hub. Re-insert the four bolts. Get car aligned since your tires will now be towed in quite a bit.

The one thing you need to make sure of is that you have enough clearance between the tire and strut at the top. This mod will camber the tire in more at the top and if your tire is already close to the strut you will need a spacer added to the wheel so that it will clear.

PC Valkyrie

The C55's chassis/suspension and ESP was modified compared to the C32, making it better handling car.

This brief review of the C55 from Autocar magazine (UK publication) summarizes the key differences and improvements.

http://www.autocarmagazine.co.uk/Fir....asp?RT=206729

Bottom line: The C55 at worse is just as fast as a C32. I think on average, the C55 is slightly faster. What is not really in dispute is that the C55 seems to handle much better than the C32, as evidenced by slalom numbers and skidpad numbers from various magazine tests. Overall, the C55 is a better performer. The only downside is that the ride is more bumpy/harsh in the C55.

KompressorKev

thanks for the info. so just between the hub and strut, 4 washers will increase negative camber? i'm not sure if mine will clear though - running 19 x 8.5 rim front on Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-d3 with some pretty tall sidewalls, and H&R coilovers, not sure if that presents a problem. thanks tho

Zeppelin

With coilovers you lose some clearance so depending on your tire size in the front it might be tight. I run 245's front and there is about a 1/16th of an inch clearance between the tire and strut and the tire just clears the fender with no rubbing.

KamPow3r

Look at the differences in years. I am not sure if they did but I would think that they would have better handling/braking/engineering from 2001 to 2004. Maybe a 2004 C32 and a 2004 C55 would be a better comparison and better time for the C32 to make it somewhat closer.

-KP

ralleyone

I was amazed and a little dismayed how much tighter my loaner c240 was than my c32. A hell of alot more body lean but quicker turn in, less steering boost or at least more satisfying, and just all around better feeling.

PC Valkyrie

Not likely, as Mercedes AMG did not update/change the C32 from inception till its discontinuation in 2004.