PC Valkyrie

This is from the 2004 Nurburgring Nordschleife Car Lap Time Database:

Mercedes C55 AMG ( 7/2004) 8:22
Mercedes C32 AMG ( 9/2001) 8:37
Mercedes Benz C43 AMG ( 3/1998) 8:51

BMW M3 CSL ( 8/2003) 7:50
BMW M3 ( 12/2000) 8:22
BMW M3 ( 3/1997) 8:35

Audi S4 Avant (11/2003) 8:29
Audi RS4 ( 10/2000) 8:25
Audi S4 ( 8/1998) 8:42

When I look at those times, I'm impressed that the C55 can do the "ring" in the same time as an E46 M3, as that car is often quoted to be the "benchmark" for the compact sport sedan category.

What surprises me is that C32 is so much slower. I think the C55 is slightly faster than a C32 in a straight line, but not by much.

So does anyone know whether the suspension set-up is any different between the C32 and C55 to explain the much faster time around "the ring"?? In other words, does the C55 really handle a lot better than the C32?

Another theory I have: although the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times between the C55 and C32 are very similar (C55 consistently slightly faster), I suspect that the added torque advantage in the C55 allows it to power out of corners faster than the C32.

What do you guys think?

AgentQ

Mercedes made several changes to the suspension of the C55 and the car does have a bit more power and toque. Apparently the suspension changes do make a difference as noted by several magazine reviews. However, conditions and driving style make a huge difference. The same driver can get vastly different lap times between two similar cars just because one of the cars suits their driving style better.

AMGod

It'd be cool to see a Renntech C32 do the Ring in comparison to stock.

C43AMG

I surprised by these numbers - I can't believe that a C43 is slower than a 97' M3 - or for that matter even a 98' S4 - I can't accept it - nope.


This is from the 2004 Nurburgring Nordschleife Car Lap Time Database:

Mercedes C55 AMG ( 7/2004) 8:22
Mercedes C32 AMG ( 9/2001) 8:37
Mercedes Benz C43 AMG ( 3/1998) 8:51

BMW M3 CSL ( 8/2003) 7:50
BMW M3 ( 12/2000) 8:22
BMW M3 ( 3/1997) 8:35

Audi S4 Avant (11/2003) 8:29
Audi RS4 ( 10/2000) 8:25
Audi S4 ( 8/1998) 8:42

Erik

Not trying to be funny, but you just have to belive it. They are not even close. That has been cofirmed my almost every single car magasine in Europe.

I have also been up against the C43 severall times with my old M3. High speed run, red light grand prix. Honestly the difference is quite large.

Remember that the E36 M3 tested here is the Euro version with 321 Hp, not the US wanna be M3 with only 240 HP.

The C43 wont touch the Euro M3 in anything involving performance.

All this times are done by the same driver. Condition is different so they are not 100% comparable.

Jon200

comes down to the driver I guess, the C55 has a few handling tweaks

does it have a different steering rack compared to the C32

PC Valkyrie

We know that for MY2005, all W203 C-class models have a wider track and more "direct" steering compared to 2001-2004 models. When comparing the C32 and C55, I'm' not entirely clear whether the actual suspension/springs are any different. The C32 had 17" rims and the C55 had 18" rims, but I think the actual tire widths were the same (245 rear and 225 front).

I'm just curious whether the minor "tweaks" in supension/tuning resulted in such a noticeable differenc in handling. I still think that the torque advantage in the C55 probably explains most of the differece in the lap times around the "ring".

J Irwan

I concur...

I am with ya on this


Regardz,

J Irwan

reggid

for starters the cars were tested on different days and therefore different conditions and a few seconds in 8 minutes is easily lost. Someone who has driven both should be able to say whether there is any marked difference between the two.

what are the hockenheim times?

AMGod

2 seconds flat in favor of the 55.

SiLvaC32

c55 has 18" wheels rite?? probably that made the difference

BlackC230Coupe

have u guys every driven a C55? it drives MUCH different then a stock C32. The steering is alot different and the suspension is totally changed from the C32. Well, different springs and shocks. The C32 is a comfortable ride stock. the C55 stock is VERY stiff, to me stiffer then a M3.

AaronC

I think that the difference can be completly attributed to tires and wheels. The larger wheels keep the handling from being quite so "squirmy", and the tires that the C32 came with stock were crap. Any of us that have upgraded our wheels and tires can attest to the fact that the car handles like a whole different car. Such a simple thing can make a huge difference.

I dont know if you have heard yet, but the F430 is slower around the Top Gear test track then the F360. Ferrari says it is becasue the tires they put on the F430 are not as sticky as the ones on the 360.

I think that all car tests should include the tire spec that was on the car.

AaronC

Take a look at the difference tires can make. These times were performed by Grassroots Motorsports Mag on the same car, the same day, at the same track:
1) Falken Azenis RT-615 (new type), 42.984
2) Falken Azenis RT-215 (old), 43.254
3) Yokohama Advan Neova, 48.287
4) Hankook R-S2 Z212, 43.511
5) Kumho Ecsta MX, 43.762
6) BFGoodrich T/A KD 43.855


Here are the times with Street legal "Competition" tires:
1) Kumho Ecsta V710, 41.008
2) Hoosier A3S05, 41.142
3) Hankook Z214 C70, 41.217
4) Yokohama A032R S, 42.428

AMGod

For us stealth C32 tuners, it may be worthwhile to get the part numbers on the dampers and springs for the C55.

AMGod

FWIW, the Hockenheim times and the Ring times were with both cars using PZero Rossos.

AaronC

Can you post a link with that info? Its not that I dont trust you, I would just like to see it on "paper".

I am sorry, but I have driven a C55, and I dont think it handles anywhere NEAR as well as my C32 with only springs and wheels/tires. In stock form I think they are practically the same.

Steve Clark

You guys have been dancing all around the biggest single reason for the laptime differences, without seeing it.

Notice how the test dates cited range from March 1997 to July of 2004...think about how much tires have steadily evolved and improved.
Better yet, think how compromised your current ride would be if your tires were an 8 year old version, fresh out of a time-warp.

Vomit

The lower tire sidewall which comes with the switch from 17s to 18s makes all the difference in the world. Simply put, taller sidewalls make for a smoother ride and worse handling. I have 18s on my C32, but I occasionally switch my 17s back on just for contrast. The ride with the 17s is much, much smoother, but the handling is also much, much worse. It would be interesting to see a test of a C32 and a C55, both with the same size wheels and tires.

brianhn1

Not a regular F360 but a F360CS.

The F360CS was .6 seconds faster than the F430.

J Irwan

Very very good point...!!!!

sometime I don't understand what is the big fuss, so what if my car 3 sec slower on the track..

I made my choice and I am happy with it, and I could care less what other thinks..


and FYI,
just food for thought
a few years back Roundel (BMW Car Club ) if not Car&Driver maganizes did a test on E39 5 series (I forgot 540i or 528i) with various 17" tires vs 18" tires..

The conclusion 17" handles better.
just something to think about.


Regardz,

Erik

Here is the link Aaron.
http://www.track-challenge.com/compa...ar1=75&Car2=42
As you will see they are also using 225 and 245 on both cars. C32 is on 17" and the C55 is on 18".

Yes that could or would make up for some of the difference, but not all of it.

The Pirelli used here is just about the best tire available at the moment.

Probably not much at all.

I have seen several comparisson of 17-18 and 19" , we are NOT talking about any huge difference here.

AND do not forgett that if the car is design to run on 17", it will not automatically handle better with larger wheels. Shocks and springs must fit the tire/wheel combo.


My knowledge of those tires are zero, but the individual difference sound about right exept tire #3, that can not be right........ Yokohama is normaly a very good tire and unless we are talking about the "economy" version here thta does not seem correct.

The R tires is as it should be a lot faster, even though I would have guess a bigger difference even on this short track.

AaronC

That is correct. The ferrari techs said that the F430 would be faster with better tires.

AaronC

...

BlackC230Coupe

Sorry but i have to disagree with that.

Even my old C230 coupe with Renntech shocks, H&R springs, eibach sway bars and 19" SSR GT3s with Neros on it didnt handle as good as my stock c55 or feel as harsh.

As you know the C230 coupe witht those mods should handle better then a C32 due to its lighter weight.

With my C55 with coilovers and wheels not its a whole different story.