A turning point in Mercedes tuning...Performance Supercharger Pulley
03-13-2008, 12:41 PM
#51
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C32 AMG
.............I understand your point. However this situation is a bit different. Every reputable tuner from Brabus to Renntech to Kleemann have opted for the less desirable crank pulley because they were all concerned about the s/c clutch. Enter code3 performance with what appears to be a break through but with no explanation of the s/c clutch issue. It leaves everyone scratching their heads. I am very willing to accept that code3 performance may have figured out what others could not, but an explanation before selling the product seems like a reasonable request. If code3 performance does not wish to explain, perhaps for fear of giving away trade secrets, and is certain that the s/c clutch pulley issue has been resolved, then they should demonstrate it in the form of a warranty of the s/c clutch for customers who purchase their smaller s/c pullies.
Ted
Ted
I think you and I should sit back and let some others try the product and report back after a period of time. Sometimes things are just too good to be true. But sometimes the little guy figures it all out!
03-13-2008, 12:54 PM
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E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
i'm gonna take a wild guess and say the intake mod is a better, smoother flowing Y pipe. i don't like the stock sl55 unit with the ribbing on the inside. can't be good for flow.
a few yrs back i actually used silicone and filled in and made the intake on my zuki swift smooth. power went from 85 hp to 86. haha i'm joking but you get my drift. considered doing same to the Y pipe but decied agaist it as if a piece came loose it would damage the s/c.
Brandon. If a pulley is available i'd like to try it on my car. i'll do a dyno immediately to see A/F.
do you think IATs will be too high even with the upgraded HE and 030 pump? winter driving may be ok but summer a problem?
Perhaps Brandon is not saying much due to the competitive marketplace for c32 performance parts? (LET burst onto the scene right around the time he came out with his larger HE).
a few yrs back i actually used silicone and filled in and made the intake on my zuki swift smooth. power went from 85 hp to 86. haha i'm joking but you get my drift. considered doing same to the Y pipe but decied agaist it as if a piece came loose it would damage the s/c.
Brandon. If a pulley is available i'd like to try it on my car. i'll do a dyno immediately to see A/F.
do you think IATs will be too high even with the upgraded HE and 030 pump? winter driving may be ok but summer a problem?
Perhaps Brandon is not saying much due to the competitive marketplace for c32 performance parts? (LET burst onto the scene right around the time he came out with his larger HE).
03-13-2008, 01:41 PM
#53
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S600TT, R350
.............I understand your point. However this situation is a bit different. Every reputable tuner from Brabus to Renntech to Kleemann have opted for the less desirable crank pulley because they were all concerned about the s/c clutch. Enter code3 performance with what appears to be a break through but with no explanation of the s/c clutch issue. It leaves everyone scratching their heads. I am very willing to accept that code3 performance may have figured out what others could not, but an explanation before selling the product seems like a reasonable request. If code3 performance does not wish to explain, perhaps for fear of giving away trade secrets, and is certain that the s/c clutch pulley issue has been resolved, then they should demonstrate it in the form of a warranty of the s/c clutch for customers who purchase their smaller s/c pullies.
Ted
Ted
1. By reducing it's size one also reduces available surface area for the belt - result is belt slippage. This is what we see on the dyno graph presented by Code3.
2. In order to make smaller pulley, one has to install smaller shaft bearing - thus bearing is spinning faster. Now we all know stock bearings fail regularly. This one will fail even sooner.
In 2001, this was the route I wanted to take and after looking at it from engineering, not emotional - "I am better than everyone else" angle, I went with larger crank pulley. Link is here to original posts going back is here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=18979
There is a reason why all of the tuners, including myself, use larger crankshaft pulley - better reliability and PROVEN results.
03-13-2008, 02:18 PM
#54
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I tested this pulley on my C32...
The bearing is the same one as stock.. if fact is the OEM bearing. (orange color)
I drove the car for about 20 minutes and response of the engine was better and power delivery was there... I never felt a jerk or sentation that the belt was slipping.
The pulley was engineered smaller but keeping the bearings the same. Also the back plate is pretty much the same as stock..
the only different with this pulley.. the material will be lighter, is not as fat as the stock one and the groves are designed in such a way to make the most contact with a continous grove belt.
I know what slipping feels (E55 with ASP) I had the Evosport set up on my C32.... and the product seem to work just fine.
The bearing is the same one as stock.. if fact is the OEM bearing. (orange color)
I drove the car for about 20 minutes and response of the engine was better and power delivery was there... I never felt a jerk or sentation that the belt was slipping.
The pulley was engineered smaller but keeping the bearings the same. Also the back plate is pretty much the same as stock..
the only different with this pulley.. the material will be lighter, is not as fat as the stock one and the groves are designed in such a way to make the most contact with a continous grove belt.
I know what slipping feels (E55 with ASP) I had the Evosport set up on my C32.... and the product seem to work just fine.
03-13-2008, 02:22 PM
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2003 C32 AMG, 2003 E39 M5
So the whole S/C clutch failure theory when installing a smaller S/C pulley on the C32 was just a myth/lie from these larger tuners? I am not being critical I just want to make sure there are no issues with the S/C clutch. From what I am reading it was/is just a myth to make people buy crank pulleys instead.
Thanks
Thanks
Lets talk about a few things.
The magical SC Clutch, is not magical...Its a simple two-piece bolt-on pulley and armature plate. The Code3 Pulley works identical to the stock piece, if not better. We designed it to be stronger. We even gave it a little flare to look cool. We also use a quality NSK bearing.
Check this link out...Toyota MR2 Supercharged with electromagnetic clutch pulley upgrade. This mod is not new or magical. The problem is, most cars don't use this wacky pulley setup. They simply have a bypass valve.
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2316/article.html
Many people run an "upper and lower" pulley. Check out Cobras or Minis just to name a few. But even though the lower is available, most people stick with just the upgraded sc pulley. In fact, more commonly, if you swap out the crank pulley, you keep it the same size, but purchase a lightweight version. Very common with Minis.
This is all about money, and many people realize that. Some cant seem to bring themselves to believe it though. Don't think that I didn't talk to everyone I could before I even embarked on this project, which included engineers from Magnuson and Jackson Racing. We could have copied a crank pulley like everyone else, and called it a day. But why? Its not the logical way to make power. A company looking to make a quick buck doesn't want to embark on creating a completely new piece. There are 17 pieces to the stock sc pulley. Sometimes modifications are about perception. Sell people a big fancy crank pulley, and you can justify a higher price. Plus, look at all the money shops were making off of installation...Why sell them a piece that they can install themselves. They want to keep it magical.
The magical SC Clutch, is not magical...Its a simple two-piece bolt-on pulley and armature plate. The Code3 Pulley works identical to the stock piece, if not better. We designed it to be stronger. We even gave it a little flare to look cool. We also use a quality NSK bearing.
Check this link out...Toyota MR2 Supercharged with electromagnetic clutch pulley upgrade. This mod is not new or magical. The problem is, most cars don't use this wacky pulley setup. They simply have a bypass valve.
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2316/article.html
Many people run an "upper and lower" pulley. Check out Cobras or Minis just to name a few. But even though the lower is available, most people stick with just the upgraded sc pulley. In fact, more commonly, if you swap out the crank pulley, you keep it the same size, but purchase a lightweight version. Very common with Minis.
This is all about money, and many people realize that. Some cant seem to bring themselves to believe it though. Don't think that I didn't talk to everyone I could before I even embarked on this project, which included engineers from Magnuson and Jackson Racing. We could have copied a crank pulley like everyone else, and called it a day. But why? Its not the logical way to make power. A company looking to make a quick buck doesn't want to embark on creating a completely new piece. There are 17 pieces to the stock sc pulley. Sometimes modifications are about perception. Sell people a big fancy crank pulley, and you can justify a higher price. Plus, look at all the money shops were making off of installation...Why sell them a piece that they can install themselves. They want to keep it magical.
03-13-2008, 02:23 PM
#56
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i'm gonna take a wild guess and say the intake mod is a better, smoother flowing Y pipe. i don't like the stock sl55 unit with the ribbing on the inside. can't be good for flow.
a few yrs back i actually used silicone and filled in and made the intake on my zuki swift smooth. power went from 85 hp to 86. haha i'm joking but you get my drift. considered doing same to the Y pipe but decied agaist it as if a piece came loose it would damage the s/c.
Brandon. If a pulley is available i'd like to try it on my car. i'll do a dyno immediately to see A/F.
do you think IATs will be too high even with the upgraded HE and 030 pump? winter driving may be ok but summer a problem?
Perhaps Brandon is not saying much due to the competitive marketplace for c32 performance parts? (LET burst onto the scene right around the time he came out with his larger HE).
a few yrs back i actually used silicone and filled in and made the intake on my zuki swift smooth. power went from 85 hp to 86. haha i'm joking but you get my drift. considered doing same to the Y pipe but decied agaist it as if a piece came loose it would damage the s/c.
Brandon. If a pulley is available i'd like to try it on my car. i'll do a dyno immediately to see A/F.
do you think IATs will be too high even with the upgraded HE and 030 pump? winter driving may be ok but summer a problem?
Perhaps Brandon is not saying much due to the competitive marketplace for c32 performance parts? (LET burst onto the scene right around the time he came out with his larger HE).
having tested my car with the upgraded HE.. its a perfect combo.
I hit multiple 3 digit runs 2 weeks ago with this pulley.. no power loss or sluggish performance.
The heat exchanger will handle this pulley.. where its LET or Code3.
Weather was mid to high 60's partly cloudy..
clutch pulley alone with stock pump and HE probably won't be good for summer weather in so cal.
Last edited by TopGun32; 03-13-2008 at 02:25 PM.
03-13-2008, 03:29 PM
#57
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C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
The problem with making a smaller supercharger pulley is two fold.
1. By reducing it's size one also reduces available surface area for the belt - result is belt slippage. This is what we see on the dyno graph presented by Code3.
2. In order to make smaller pulley, one has to install smaller shaft bearing - thus bearing is spinning faster. Now we all know stock bearings fail regularly. This one will fail even sooner.
In 2001, this was the route I wanted to take and after looking at it from engineering, not emotional - "I am better than everyone else" angle, I went with larger crank pulley. Link is here to original posts going back is here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=18979
There is a reason why all of the tuners, including myself, use larger crankshaft pulley - better reliability and PROVEN results.
1. By reducing it's size one also reduces available surface area for the belt - result is belt slippage. This is what we see on the dyno graph presented by Code3.
2. In order to make smaller pulley, one has to install smaller shaft bearing - thus bearing is spinning faster. Now we all know stock bearings fail regularly. This one will fail even sooner.
In 2001, this was the route I wanted to take and after looking at it from engineering, not emotional - "I am better than everyone else" angle, I went with larger crank pulley. Link is here to original posts going back is here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=18979
There is a reason why all of the tuners, including myself, use larger crankshaft pulley - better reliability and PROVEN results.
We discussed this issue briefly last year. To address your points.
1. The altered wrap angle (arc of contact)of the smaller sc pulley, versus the stock one, is so minimal, it hardly registers mathematically. I can assure you that the pulley grooves were belt matched for the best grip, while maintaining belt reliability and proper geometry. After 6000 miles, I see no signs of slipping, cracking, tearing, or deterioration of the belt. It looks as new as it was when we put it on.
You are not seeing belt slippage. All of my stock dynos show the same behavior, and the belt is not slipping in them either. If you are referring to any large dips, those are simply operator issues. Looking over many crank pulley dynos, I see the same behavior. Here is an ASP crank pulley dyno.
Those that have driven my car, driven their own car with my pulley, and dynoed the vehicle have reported no slippage. Nothing but perfect engagement from any speed and any gear. One of those people was a former Evosport ODPS customer.
2. Unfortunately you are incorrect. The same size bearing is used, and it is sourced from NSK specifically for this high speed application. Failure rate will be no less than the stock bearing.
I respect all the work that you have done and still do. But in talking with engineers from both Magnuson and Jackson Racing/Moss Motors about the project, both before and after R&D, they agree, this is a solution that works great. There is a reason I went outside the MB circle of tuners to get this developed...
03-13-2008, 04:43 PM
#58
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for most.. its sounds too good to be true..
I would say test the unit when it comes out.. ( you can swap from one car to another) in matter of minutes. and if you feel its not for you then its your call.
Reading the 335 forums they had the same critism for Terry. An amateur tuner who developed the Juice Box.
The juice box under cuts everybody and with a few additions of "H pills" basically transistors that add boost.. it has as much power as the big tuning places and with less "CEL" and boost issues. He also has a racing switch you can add on.
In fact Terry holds the fasted 335 on record with his project JB2 HH R.
His product sells for a few hundred buck...
sometimes we over think things...
I would say test the unit when it comes out.. ( you can swap from one car to another) in matter of minutes. and if you feel its not for you then its your call.
Reading the 335 forums they had the same critism for Terry. An amateur tuner who developed the Juice Box.
The juice box under cuts everybody and with a few additions of "H pills" basically transistors that add boost.. it has as much power as the big tuning places and with less "CEL" and boost issues. He also has a racing switch you can add on.
In fact Terry holds the fasted 335 on record with his project JB2 HH R.
His product sells for a few hundred buck...
sometimes we over think things...
03-13-2008, 04:47 PM
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white and whiter
I tested this pulley on my C32...
The bearing is the same one as stock.. if fact is the OEM bearing. (orange color)
I drove the car for about 20 minutes and response of the engine was better and power delivery was there... I never felt a jerk or sentation that the belt was slipping.
The pulley was engineered smaller but keeping the bearings the same. Also the back plate is pretty much the same as stock..
the only different with this pulley.. the material will be lighter, is not as fat as the stock one and the groves are designed in such a way to make the most contact with a continous grove belt.
I know what slipping feels (E55 with ASP) I had the Evosport set up on my C32.... and the product seem to work just fine.
The bearing is the same one as stock.. if fact is the OEM bearing. (orange color)
I drove the car for about 20 minutes and response of the engine was better and power delivery was there... I never felt a jerk or sentation that the belt was slipping.
The pulley was engineered smaller but keeping the bearings the same. Also the back plate is pretty much the same as stock..
the only different with this pulley.. the material will be lighter, is not as fat as the stock one and the groves are designed in such a way to make the most contact with a continous grove belt.
I know what slipping feels (E55 with ASP) I had the Evosport set up on my C32.... and the product seem to work just fine.
03-13-2008, 04:50 PM
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white and whiter
BTW, Brandon,
do you sell the NSK bearing seperate? I have the Houston bearing replaced the original bearing, but that only lasted 6months. i'm on my second houston bearing. it'll be nice if you can sell the NSK original bearing. If you do then I will sell my spare houston bearing I recently purchased for the NSK to be the spare one.
do you sell the NSK bearing seperate? I have the Houston bearing replaced the original bearing, but that only lasted 6months. i'm on my second houston bearing. it'll be nice if you can sell the NSK original bearing. If you do then I will sell my spare houston bearing I recently purchased for the NSK to be the spare one.
03-13-2008, 04:58 PM
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C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
By the way, I want to be clear. There is an acceptable amount of belt slip. What I am referring to is gross belt slip. We don't see any indicators that point to gross belt slip e.g., belt dust, belt glazing, or belt overheating. After 6k miles, the belt looks new, with no signs of fraying, cracks, or visible wear.
Unfortunately I can not comment on why previous prototypes may have failed. I freely admitted in the beginning that we had some belt slip, but with the guidance of companies that produce superchargers and pulleys, made appropriate changes. Believe me, with the first few versions of the pulley, it slipped, and I didn't think the project had much hope...All it took was some good advice from people in the industry, and we were off and running.
Unfortunately I can not comment on why previous prototypes may have failed. I freely admitted in the beginning that we had some belt slip, but with the guidance of companies that produce superchargers and pulleys, made appropriate changes. Believe me, with the first few versions of the pulley, it slipped, and I didn't think the project had much hope...All it took was some good advice from people in the industry, and we were off and running.
03-13-2008, 05:03 PM
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C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
Frank, I will be able to accommodate everyone. The Houston bearing fits, but it was not suitable for our application. I had one that lasted about the same time. The bearing is being sourced from NSK. I am not sure if the new one is the exact same model, but it will be comparable and appropriate for our sc application.
03-13-2008, 05:15 PM
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C43, SLK32, CLK63 Black Series
It will be interesting to see if there is any gross slippage with larger crank pulleys, 178 is the most common size so it seems to make the most sense to test it with a 178 mm crank pulley.
03-13-2008, 05:15 PM
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2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
By the way, I want to be clear. There is an acceptable amount of belt slip. What I am referring to is gross belt slip. We don't see any indicators that point to gross belt slip e.g., belt dust, belt glazing, or belt overheating. After 6k miles, the belt looks new, with no signs of fraying, cracks, or visible wear.
Unfortunately I can not comment on why previous prototypes may have failed. I freely admitted in the beginning that we had some belt slip, but with the guidance of companies that produce superchargers and pulleys, made appropriate changes. Believe me, with the first few versions of the pulley, it slipped, and I didn't think the project had much hope...All it took was some good advice from people in the industry, and we were off and running.
Unfortunately I can not comment on why previous prototypes may have failed. I freely admitted in the beginning that we had some belt slip, but with the guidance of companies that produce superchargers and pulleys, made appropriate changes. Believe me, with the first few versions of the pulley, it slipped, and I didn't think the project had much hope...All it took was some good advice from people in the industry, and we were off and running.
Thanks for all the info so far!
Curious about your comment regarding belt slippage... does the stock S/C pulley slip a little, and this one slips a little more (but still a low, acceptable level), or does the stock one not slip at all, and this one slips slightly, albeit at an acceptable level? I really don't know enough about the stock S/C pulley and clutch to know the answer...
TIA! Keep the info comin'
03-13-2008, 07:15 PM
#65
The problem with making a smaller supercharger pulley is two fold.
1. By reducing it's size one also reduces available surface area for the belt - result is belt slippage. This is what we see on the dyno graph presented by Code3.
2. In order to make smaller pulley, one has to install smaller shaft bearing - thus bearing is spinning faster. Now we all know stock bearings fail regularly. This one will fail even sooner.
In 2001, this was the route I wanted to take and after looking at it from engineering, not emotional - "I am better than everyone else" angle, I went with larger crank pulley. Link is here to original posts going back is here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=18979
There is a reason why all of the tuners, including myself, use larger crankshaft pulley - better reliability and PROVEN results.
1. By reducing it's size one also reduces available surface area for the belt - result is belt slippage. This is what we see on the dyno graph presented by Code3.
2. In order to make smaller pulley, one has to install smaller shaft bearing - thus bearing is spinning faster. Now we all know stock bearings fail regularly. This one will fail even sooner.
In 2001, this was the route I wanted to take and after looking at it from engineering, not emotional - "I am better than everyone else" angle, I went with larger crank pulley. Link is here to original posts going back is here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=18979
There is a reason why all of the tuners, including myself, use larger crankshaft pulley - better reliability and PROVEN results.
.........Like others have asked, is the s/c clutch issue just an urban legend? Or is it the case that when the belt slips with the smaller s/c pulley, it behaves like a bad s/c clutch engagement? Tholse of us laymen are very confused.
Ted
03-14-2008, 02:44 PM
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...........thanks for the explanation.
.........Like others have asked, is the s/c clutch issue just an urban legend? Or is it the case that when the belt slips with the smaller s/c pulley, it behaves like a bad s/c clutch engagement? Tholse of us laymen are very confused.
Ted
.........Like others have asked, is the s/c clutch issue just an urban legend? Or is it the case that when the belt slips with the smaller s/c pulley, it behaves like a bad s/c clutch engagement? Tholse of us laymen are very confused.
Ted
03-14-2008, 05:05 PM
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white and whiter
maybe ribs were added to the pulley or some kind of pattern were added to prevent slippage of the belt.
03-14-2008, 06:02 PM
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interesting...you are correct, but the belt has overall more area to grab a larger diameter pulley than a smaller diameter pulley. I think this is probably why code3 had belt slip issue at first according to him.
maybe ribs were added to the pulley or some kind of pattern were added to prevent slippage of the belt.
maybe ribs were added to the pulley or some kind of pattern were added to prevent slippage of the belt.
03-15-2008, 10:39 AM
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03-15-2008, 02:24 PM
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You are not seeing belt slippage. All of my stock dynos show the same behavior, and the belt is not slipping in them either. If you are referring to any large dips, those are simply operator issues. Looking over many crank pulley dynos, I see the same behavior. Here is an ASP crank pulley dyno....
Thanks.
