R&D Update #4 (ODPS and Intercooler)(LONG)
10-01-2002, 12:55 AM
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R&D Update #4 (ODPS and Intercooler)(LONG)
Brad rushed things a little bit. Without explanation the dyno charts in previous post do not make much sense. Let me go over each one.
Before I go any further, I have seen some C32 make as much as 297HP stock to as low as 270HP. Most other Dynojet dynos of C32s and SLK32s are in the same range. Each engine is a little bit different. If you are interested in tuning your C32/SLK32 I would highly recommend establishing a baseline on a DYNOJET. For the one nearest you please go to www.dynojet.com. With over 200 in the country there is bound to be one close. If you are in Southern California we offer free baseline. Just give us a call at 714.731.6040.
I have also went back to stock 17'' wheels and tires to keep data consistent with baseline.
First chart shows three HP graphs representing acceleration from 10 mph to 142 mph. Spikes and dips you see at 45, 65 and 105 mph represent transmission shifts. Please disregard 315HP rating for green graph as it represents HP spike due to TQ converter. It is not a true number. Area under the curve represent acceleration. Peak numbers are good for conversation. The fatter the curve the quicker the car.
The blue one is our stock C32 with 283HP.
The green one is with OverDrive Pulleys System (ODPS) and a stock intercooler (IC). As we follow the curve in 1st gear, we see a nice gain of 22HP before 1-2nd shift. As we get into the 2nd gear, HP keeps rising, until 56 mph when DME senses detonation and pulls timing out. On the scanner the AIT (Air Intake Temperature) is over 145F and timing is down from 14 degrees to 10 degrees. As the car shift sinto 3rd, DME still does not like IAT as they are now in 160F range. The AIT rises slowly to 175F as we reach the end of the 4th gear when DME further retards timing to 9 degrees.
Clearly, there is not enough capacity in intercooler to keep IAT under control. When we bled the system we found that it had only 1 liter (0.26 Gallons) capacity. There is also a direct link to engine cooling system to provide support to IC if the IAT goes over 195F.
It became clear to us that in order to keep our C32 in one piece and consistent we need to upgrade the IC. Since water to air intercooler in essense consists of two systems, we started with easiest one first.
The operation of this IC unit is fairly simple. An electric pump pushes coolant through an intercooler core that is positioned in the middle of the engine, right under the Kompressor. Now hot coolant is sent though a small radiator that is mounted at the front. Now cooled, the same coolant is fed back to the electric pump. This system is very inefficient compared to air to air system (50% vs. 80%), however for a street application can be made to work.
Driving the C32 with scanner attached we noticed that after a hard run AIT stayed hot for some time, before cooling down. This indicated that there was not enough cooling medium. So the first stage was to add more coolant.
After carefully looking for a place to mount a decent size coolant reserviour, we could not find one. There is simply no room. However, there is a nice 6L (1.5 Gallons) reseviour that is used for windshield and headlight washers. In addition there is some room right above that can be used for an additional reserviour. That is exactly what we did. Utilising all of the space, we made an aluminum box that added an extra 2L (for a total of 9L (6+2+1) - 2.3 gallon cooling system). We used plain water with a some Windex to keep windshiled clean. Also ice can be added for drag racing to lower temperature even further.
The result is red graph that you see on the chart. Now with all this capacity, the AIT only reaches 145F at the top of the 4th gear, timing stays at 13-14 degrees, power goes up 25-30HP and AIT cool down right away as soon as one gets off the "loud" pedal. Cruising around, IAT stays about 20-25F above ambient.
Short burst of power barely raise IAT by 40-45F above ambient, cooling down to cruising temps within next 5-10 seconds.
Second chart shows gains in TQ on a slightly smaller scale, so the gains look bigger. However, 25-30 ft.lbs. still feel very good. On the freeway, simply flooring the gas brings up speed with a lot more ease and a smile on ones face.
Third chart shows A/F ratio for all three runs. As you can see DME has adapted to more boost without any problems. According to Kleemann, there is 25% additional capacity in stock DME (349 x 1.25 = 436HP), so we are still OK. Stock injectors are 40 lbs./hr. so we can make 480HP ((40 x 6)/0.50 = 480HP), before they need to be upgraded. I do not know if the stock fuel pump can supply enough fuel at this time. If it needs to be upgraded, there are number of ways to do so.
We are looking at producing IC Stage I upgrade in the near future. It will come with a new windshield washer reserviour, custom made second reserviour and all the clamps and hoses necessary for the upgrade. You do need to remove front bumper cover to access front IC radiator. Full instructions will be included.
IC Stage I will be included in OverDrive Pulley System (ODPS). ODPS will have 7'' crank pulley, water pump pulley, alternator pulley and two tensioner pulleys. A set of NGK copper, colder plugs will also be included. I will have availability and final pricing shortly. ODPS is going on two more C32 for final testing before final release. I also need a SLK32 for testing.
I will post some more pictures and updates shortly. Thank you for listening and sorry for a long post.
Before I go any further, I have seen some C32 make as much as 297HP stock to as low as 270HP. Most other Dynojet dynos of C32s and SLK32s are in the same range. Each engine is a little bit different. If you are interested in tuning your C32/SLK32 I would highly recommend establishing a baseline on a DYNOJET. For the one nearest you please go to www.dynojet.com. With over 200 in the country there is bound to be one close. If you are in Southern California we offer free baseline. Just give us a call at 714.731.6040.
I have also went back to stock 17'' wheels and tires to keep data consistent with baseline.
First chart shows three HP graphs representing acceleration from 10 mph to 142 mph. Spikes and dips you see at 45, 65 and 105 mph represent transmission shifts. Please disregard 315HP rating for green graph as it represents HP spike due to TQ converter. It is not a true number. Area under the curve represent acceleration. Peak numbers are good for conversation. The fatter the curve the quicker the car.
The blue one is our stock C32 with 283HP.
The green one is with OverDrive Pulleys System (ODPS) and a stock intercooler (IC). As we follow the curve in 1st gear, we see a nice gain of 22HP before 1-2nd shift. As we get into the 2nd gear, HP keeps rising, until 56 mph when DME senses detonation and pulls timing out. On the scanner the AIT (Air Intake Temperature) is over 145F and timing is down from 14 degrees to 10 degrees. As the car shift sinto 3rd, DME still does not like IAT as they are now in 160F range. The AIT rises slowly to 175F as we reach the end of the 4th gear when DME further retards timing to 9 degrees.
Clearly, there is not enough capacity in intercooler to keep IAT under control. When we bled the system we found that it had only 1 liter (0.26 Gallons) capacity. There is also a direct link to engine cooling system to provide support to IC if the IAT goes over 195F.
It became clear to us that in order to keep our C32 in one piece and consistent we need to upgrade the IC. Since water to air intercooler in essense consists of two systems, we started with easiest one first.
The operation of this IC unit is fairly simple. An electric pump pushes coolant through an intercooler core that is positioned in the middle of the engine, right under the Kompressor. Now hot coolant is sent though a small radiator that is mounted at the front. Now cooled, the same coolant is fed back to the electric pump. This system is very inefficient compared to air to air system (50% vs. 80%), however for a street application can be made to work.
Driving the C32 with scanner attached we noticed that after a hard run AIT stayed hot for some time, before cooling down. This indicated that there was not enough cooling medium. So the first stage was to add more coolant.
After carefully looking for a place to mount a decent size coolant reserviour, we could not find one. There is simply no room. However, there is a nice 6L (1.5 Gallons) reseviour that is used for windshield and headlight washers. In addition there is some room right above that can be used for an additional reserviour. That is exactly what we did. Utilising all of the space, we made an aluminum box that added an extra 2L (for a total of 9L (6+2+1) - 2.3 gallon cooling system). We used plain water with a some Windex to keep windshiled clean. Also ice can be added for drag racing to lower temperature even further.
The result is red graph that you see on the chart. Now with all this capacity, the AIT only reaches 145F at the top of the 4th gear, timing stays at 13-14 degrees, power goes up 25-30HP and AIT cool down right away as soon as one gets off the "loud" pedal. Cruising around, IAT stays about 20-25F above ambient.
Short burst of power barely raise IAT by 40-45F above ambient, cooling down to cruising temps within next 5-10 seconds.
Second chart shows gains in TQ on a slightly smaller scale, so the gains look bigger. However, 25-30 ft.lbs. still feel very good. On the freeway, simply flooring the gas brings up speed with a lot more ease and a smile on ones face.
Third chart shows A/F ratio for all three runs. As you can see DME has adapted to more boost without any problems. According to Kleemann, there is 25% additional capacity in stock DME (349 x 1.25 = 436HP), so we are still OK. Stock injectors are 40 lbs./hr. so we can make 480HP ((40 x 6)/0.50 = 480HP), before they need to be upgraded. I do not know if the stock fuel pump can supply enough fuel at this time. If it needs to be upgraded, there are number of ways to do so.
We are looking at producing IC Stage I upgrade in the near future. It will come with a new windshield washer reserviour, custom made second reserviour and all the clamps and hoses necessary for the upgrade. You do need to remove front bumper cover to access front IC radiator. Full instructions will be included.
IC Stage I will be included in OverDrive Pulley System (ODPS). ODPS will have 7'' crank pulley, water pump pulley, alternator pulley and two tensioner pulleys. A set of NGK copper, colder plugs will also be included. I will have availability and final pricing shortly. ODPS is going on two more C32 for final testing before final release. I also need a SLK32 for testing.
I will post some more pictures and updates shortly. Thank you for listening and sorry for a long post.
10-01-2002, 02:22 AM
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Ok, so you include a pullies and intercooler, what about a chip?
Additionally, not to discourage you, but a gain of 14 hp to the wheels with a pulley and upgraded intercooler seems like it is not even worth it. Renntech claims to gain 50 hp (at the crank) with a chip and pulley, so that would put them at 320 @ the wheels, so you guys have another 23 hp to go....
Additionally, not to discourage you, but a gain of 14 hp to the wheels with a pulley and upgraded intercooler seems like it is not even worth it. Renntech claims to gain 50 hp (at the crank) with a chip and pulley, so that would put them at 320 @ the wheels, so you guys have another 23 hp to go....
Last edited by sticky2; 10-01-2002 at 02:27 AM.
10-01-2002, 03:02 AM
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Gimpy: Please read my post carefully. I know it is long and you have probably missed it. Peak numbers do not mean anything. What accelerates the car is the area under the curve. If you look again, you will see that there a constant gain of 20+ HP, pretty much through out all the gears.
The reason we do not offer software as of yet, has to do with availability of it from reliable source. We have tested two different chips and neither one produced any gains. Claims for both were over 25HP. I just returned from Germany last week and we are negotiating with yet another software company to test their chip. If it produces measurable gains than we will market it.
Since stock software only runs 13-14 degrees of total advance, adding another 6-8 degrees is likely to add another 20-25HP. BTW, this is what Renntech does. To run this much advance on CA 91 gas is a bit risky, since stock IC, as we have tested, can not handle more boost.
This is why the development went to intercooler first.
The reason we do not offer software as of yet, has to do with availability of it from reliable source. We have tested two different chips and neither one produced any gains. Claims for both were over 25HP. I just returned from Germany last week and we are negotiating with yet another software company to test their chip. If it produces measurable gains than we will market it.
Since stock software only runs 13-14 degrees of total advance, adding another 6-8 degrees is likely to add another 20-25HP. BTW, this is what Renntech does. To run this much advance on CA 91 gas is a bit risky, since stock IC, as we have tested, can not handle more boost.
This is why the development went to intercooler first.
10-01-2002, 03:21 AM
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Originally posted by vadim@evosport
Gimpy: Please read my post carefully. I know it is long and you have probably missed it. Peak numbers do not mean anything. What accelerates the car is the area under the curve. If you look again, you will see that there a constant gain of 20+ HP, pretty much through out all the gears.
The reason we do not offer software as of yet, has to do with availability of it from reliable source. We have tested two different chips and neither one produced any gains. Claims for both were over 25HP. I just returned from Germany last week and we are negotiating with yet another software company to test their chip. If it produces measurable gains than we will market it.
Since stock software only runs 13-14 degrees of total advance, adding another 6-8 degrees is likely to add another 20-25HP. BTW, this is what Renntech does. To run this much advance on CA 91 gas is a bit risky, since stock IC, as we have tested, can not handle more boost.
This is why the development went to intercooler first.
Gimpy: Please read my post carefully. I know it is long and you have probably missed it. Peak numbers do not mean anything. What accelerates the car is the area under the curve. If you look again, you will see that there a constant gain of 20+ HP, pretty much through out all the gears.
The reason we do not offer software as of yet, has to do with availability of it from reliable source. We have tested two different chips and neither one produced any gains. Claims for both were over 25HP. I just returned from Germany last week and we are negotiating with yet another software company to test their chip. If it produces measurable gains than we will market it.
Since stock software only runs 13-14 degrees of total advance, adding another 6-8 degrees is likely to add another 20-25HP. BTW, this is what Renntech does. To run this much advance on CA 91 gas is a bit risky, since stock IC, as we have tested, can not handle more boost.
This is why the development went to intercooler first.
This is off topic, however, I have been wondering why no one has used nitrous to any extent in the c32. With a compression ratio of 9.0:1 and a built bottom end, the engine should be able to withstand 50-75 shot easily. The engine would also benefit from the cooling effect the nitrous would have on the engine, helping the intercooler greatly. This has simply been bugging me, because if any mercedes would be a good candidate for nitrous, it seems the c32 would be it.
10-01-2002, 11:47 AM
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Renntech charges $1995 ............
We are a tuner and the idea here is to make our own line of products for C32. If we can not find it, perhaps we will end up using them.
In our experinece, a vast majority of MB owners do want to use nitrous. I agree it will work. Personally I regard nitrous as a last resort. In case of C32 there is still a lot power locked away in simple intake/exhaust upgrades.
We are a tuner and the idea here is to make our own line of products for C32. If we can not find it, perhaps we will end up using them.
In our experinece, a vast majority of MB owners do want to use nitrous. I agree it will work. Personally I regard nitrous as a last resort. In case of C32 there is still a lot power locked away in simple intake/exhaust upgrades.
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damn i want the MKB kit so bad, then i won't get any of this other stuff
10-08-2002, 02:07 AM
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I was looking at some c230k that got an intercooler upgrade and went to a fmic. Will it possible for evosport to do a large front mount for the c32, or is it not worth it? Sure would look good, I would definitely get one.
10-08-2002, 11:41 AM
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C230 uses air-to-air intercooler. C32 uses air-to-water intercooler.
Our Stage I IC upgrade adds 8 liters of capacity to IC cooling circuit. You can see the radiator for it through front lower grill. Stage II will have upgraded IC core like what you see in picture above. However, on C32 it is hidden underneath the compressor.
Stage I will be available as part of OPDS, Stage II we are currently working on.
Our Stage I IC upgrade adds 8 liters of capacity to IC cooling circuit. You can see the radiator for it through front lower grill. Stage II will have upgraded IC core like what you see in picture above. However, on C32 it is hidden underneath the compressor.
Stage I will be available as part of OPDS, Stage II we are currently working on.
10-08-2002, 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by vadim@evosport
C230 uses air-to-air intercooler. C32 uses air-to-water intercooler.
Our Stage I IC upgrade adds 8 liters of capacity to IC cooling circuit. You can see the radiator for it through front lower grill. Stage II will have upgraded IC core like what you see in picture above. However, on C32 it is hidden underneath the compressor.
Stage I will be available as part of OPDS, Stage II we are currently working on.
C230 uses air-to-air intercooler. C32 uses air-to-water intercooler.
Our Stage I IC upgrade adds 8 liters of capacity to IC cooling circuit. You can see the radiator for it through front lower grill. Stage II will have upgraded IC core like what you see in picture above. However, on C32 it is hidden underneath the compressor.
Stage I will be available as part of OPDS, Stage II we are currently working on.
10-08-2002, 06:42 PM
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Re: i dunno..
Originally posted by ro0zy
but a slk32 guy on benzworld is running 12.8's in the 1/4 with renntech pulley
but a slk32 guy on benzworld is running 12.8's in the 1/4 with renntech pulley
10-08-2002, 06:44 PM
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Re: i dunno..
Originally posted by ro0zy
but a slk32 guy on benzworld is running 12.8's in the 1/4 with renntech pulley
but a slk32 guy on benzworld is running 12.8's in the 1/4 with renntech pulley
10-08-2002, 07:48 PM
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Both our pulleys and renntech are the same size - 7 inches. This is big as it can be made. Boost level should be the same.
Go back and read my posts about temperature rise with extra boost. In CA with 91 octane, it is simply too much. On a hot day you can reach 170-180F. This is why we include Stage I IC upgrade with our pulley kit. It keeps IAT down below 150F and makes car more consistent in everyday driving, especially in the city.
Go back and read my posts about temperature rise with extra boost. In CA with 91 octane, it is simply too much. On a hot day you can reach 170-180F. This is why we include Stage I IC upgrade with our pulley kit. It keeps IAT down below 150F and makes car more consistent in everyday driving, especially in the city.
10-08-2002, 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by vadim@evosport
Both our pulleys and renntech are the same size - 7 inches. This is big as it can be made. Boost level should be the same.
Go back and read my posts about temperature rise with extra boost. In CA with 91 octane, it is simply too much. On a hot day you can reach 170-180F. This is why we include Stage I IC upgrade with our pulley kit. It keeps IAT down below 150F and makes car more consistent in everyday driving, especially in the city.
Both our pulleys and renntech are the same size - 7 inches. This is big as it can be made. Boost level should be the same.
Go back and read my posts about temperature rise with extra boost. In CA with 91 octane, it is simply too much. On a hot day you can reach 170-180F. This is why we include Stage I IC upgrade with our pulley kit. It keeps IAT down below 150F and makes car more consistent in everyday driving, especially in the city.
10-09-2002, 11:12 AM
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Look at your car. Water pump is right next to crankshaft. So in order to make crankshaft pulley larger, one has to make water pump pulley smaller. With crankshaft pulley at 7'', water pump pulley is as small as it can get.
10-09-2002, 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by vadim@evosport
Look at your car. Water pump is right next to crankshaft. So in order to make crankshaft pulley larger, one has to make water pump pulley smaller. With crankshaft pulley at 7'', water pump pulley is as small as it can get.
Look at your car. Water pump is right next to crankshaft. So in order to make crankshaft pulley larger, one has to make water pump pulley smaller. With crankshaft pulley at 7'', water pump pulley is as small as it can get.
Im not sure if this is applicable, however, on lightnings and cobras they have 2 sets of pullies for the blower. One is upper and the other lower. Is it the same way on the c32? Or does only one pulley control the boost?
10-09-2002, 08:03 PM
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This picture shows IC circuit on C32. If you look at crankshaft pulley you will see water pump pulley to the left of it. It drives all of the accessories, including kompressor.
Last edited by vadim@evosport; 10-09-2002 at 08:08 PM.
