blackbenzz

Kleemann (autorotor) supercharger. The bearings are open and exposed. It makes sense that injecting water would wash down the bearings and eventually lock up the charger. Does it not?

AIS

It does. But were not putting a garden hose to the supercharger. You have to take into consideration how much fluid were spraying and how it quickly evaporates when it hits the rotors and meets the heat within the supercharger.

Rodney

2PRECISE

This is my setup. As far as i'm concerened, on any street setup, nothing but air should be flowing thru the rotors if a blower. The constant exposure with alcohol will destroy everything it touches. On our race car setup, we have alcohol going through the blower but the car only runs for minutes at a time, and is serviced so often, this is acceptable.

My magneson blower is obviously smaller and easy to spin over, the kobelco race blower requires around 300hp to get it to spin!!!!! So tolerances between rotors is everything, and you dont mess with it in anyway!!!!

Meth kits are designed to remove the heat from the cylinder and increase octane, so it only makes sense to mount the nozzle as close as possible to cylinder. Our race car runs on alcohol, there are so many nozzles injecting the motor with fuel just to run and stay running, big difference between the two and the functions of each. Most people are confusing the 2 and get poor results, you dont see people mouning NOS direct port kits into the air intake pipe??? Same applies here.

2PRECISE

On our nitrous car, notice where the nozzles are placed.... one set is on the bottom of the intake and the other set is right on top of the intake valve. As you move the nozzles further away from the cylinder the hp gains are smaller

AIS

We've been spraying before positive displacement superchargers for three years with no problems. Some of our competitors which have been around for 7 years have been doing the same with no problems as well. maybe your familiar with Kenny Duttweiler. Kenny's been running pure methanol injection on his 2004 GTO for years with no problem. We have lots of Magnacharged LS engines like this running pure methanol or a mix with no problems. It works great to.

The reality is. It's possible to inject under the blower but requires a lot of work to do so which is why just about nobody does and everyone injects before the blower. Check out all the Magnacharged Vettes doing it.

Here's a video in which Kenny used our kit on Granatelli's Trailblazer engine. The methanol allowed them to run full timing, 24 degree's, at 13 psi on pump gas and kept the air temps below 130 degree's at full boost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4l642TnA2c

Here's a different example in which were spraying it through a centrifugal as well as before the TB. Pre-compressor injection on centrifugals and turbo's definitely has its advantages and benefits.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...z06/index.html

Quickvr4

Just wanted to add my knowledge and related information to this thread.
When mixing methanol with gasoline in the combustion chamber a lot of things happen. When you look at the properties of methanol you can see how this makes things very hard to tune.

Methanol burns:
- 1/4 of the speed as gasoline...this is why methanol is added to some fuels to increase octane which is knock resistance.
- Stoich is 6.4:1 A/F ratio while Gasoline is 14.7:1 .
- Methanol burns at about 1/8th the temperature as gasoline.

Knowing this information you can see how running methanol with gasoline in a engine that is tuned for gasoline can lead to problems.

How do you tune an ignition curve for for car that uses two different fuels that have two different burn rates? It is very hard! Of course if you just run a small shot of methanol...800ccs then it won't do much.

When methanol and gasoline are ignited in the combustion chamber the following happenes. Since the vehicle is tuned for gasoline it most likely will see a peak timing advance of maybe 30degrees at 6500rpms. Since Methanol burns 4 times as slow, the methanol is still burning as it exits the exhaust valves, through the header, and past the O2 sensor. I do not know how it is on supercharged vehicles but when tuning turboed cars with methanol injection we see huge spike in Exhaust Gas Temperatures. This usually equated to damaging the turbo chargers.

Moral of the story is that when you mix these fuels your car will not be having proper combustion. When running a small shot you will see good benefits and it will not harm your engine. When you run a large amount of it it is not the best for your engine, especially when you vehicle is running a gasoline ignition timing curve.

Water injection....waste of time and doesn't do much. yes, water dissipates more heat than methanol, however, it is not combustible and you lose power. By the cooled temps you might see an increase in power which offsets the loss combustion power but the best way to go in by running pure methanol. I recommend using VP M1 Methanol.
Methanol still dissipates heat, it actually dissipates heat faster than water but not as much per amount. Methanol is combustible....even though it has a low specific gravity...it still adds power.
It is also a benefit in that it does tend to cause a slightly richer a/f ratio. Boosted cars make the most power at around 12 - 12.5:1 a/f ratios while N/A cars are closer to 13:1.

If you guys have any questions please ask. I have setup methanol kits and done extensive dyno tuning with them. Some cars where 1/3 of their fueling was methanol!! Now that was hard to tune!!!

techB

Gentlemen, pardon the thread resurrection.

I understand the majority here will stand behind meth/water in that it does not damage the teflon/graphite seal nor the bearings of a SC. I just got off the phone with Magnuson and they absolutely DO NOT recommend meth spray upstream (before the TB) for fear this coating will breakdown and cause inadequate seal integrity between the screws (or roots equivalent). I'm also smart enough to understand that may just be a manufacturer trying to "play it safe".

My current SC setup (not on my Benz) suffers from heat soak under track conditions only. My current tune does not require meth to have a good AFR yet the IATs are so high at times the ECU is forced to retard the timing... causing a significant loss of power. I need to cool the intake charge and routing nozzles after the blower is not an option.

1. What are your thoughts? I'd very much just like to use water injection if possible but i'm a bit afraid of hydrolocking one of the cylinders or worse. Not sure if that's even a concern.

2. Is there a meth/water kit that is triggered by high AITs therefore minimizing any potential damage to the SC - if any damage even occurs...

3. How are the meth/water kits triggered if you don't have say a AEM EMS to control it? I would assume I just need a mild squirt to cool down temps therefore, is there a boost dependent meth kit out there? I guess what's the best basic kit to use if cooling IATs is the objective (not to increase octane)?

betrezra

techB - is a larger intercooler an option? Meth injection is OK for 1/4 mile, but I would not count on it for road racing with a tune that counts on constant meth spray.

GL.

techB

Unfortunately, availability of space is major issue, so is placing nozzles after the SC. The only other viable option is upgrading to a larger displacement blower and underdriving the pulley at the expense of more parasitic drag. Obviously.. not a very viable option cost wise.

betrezra

How about a water reservoir in the trunk with iced water routed through the intercooler piping? Not sure how long the ice/water will stay cold.
Might buy more time before heat soak.

Are you road racing, autocrossing, or 1/4 mile?
GL.

AMGSC

I was about to pull the trigger and install another Meth Kit after I removed my previous Meth kit because my tuner refused to tune for it.

Now my new tuner ALSO refuses to tune for it. In fact, he refuses to install it too. This is DynoComp in AZ. Rich said that even without a custom tune for the Meth Kit, the factory ECU WILL LEARN the higher octane in the alcohol and start to advance timing on it's own. If a nozzle clogs, pump fails, hoses slip off, the ECU will not learn fast enough to retard the timing and KABOOM!

betrezra

wow AMG... good to know.

These MB ECU's are so sophisticated.

techB

Just the standard HPDE events we all go to once in a while I've just hooked on the crack pipe more than others maybe.
I can certainly understand a "learning" ecu and perhaps the MBZ ecu is quite sophisticated enough to learn in such a way but in all my years of studying the subject (though, i'm by no means an expert) it's hard to believe the factory won't put in factory timing limits that will prevent a KABOOM situation. The factory ecu in most cars have a bunch of failsafes built in they just don't work well when you build a setup that requires a lot more fuel (say overdrive the SC). Only data will tell. Unfortunately, I don't know how my mbz ecu performs in such this way.

If one was running an AEM EMS which is a standalone unit then perhaps i'd be concerned. Now if you're running a super small pulley and you're absolutely relying on the meth to keep you from detonating then well.. if you're meth kit dies then yes, you've got issues.

All i'm trying to get an answer for with my original question is if there's a way to use the meth/water spray to cool down the IATs (prevent heat soak). The factory ECU already retards the timing when high IATs are reached (hence loss of HP but at least its safe) but what if you use the meth to cool down the air just a little so it will simulate an IAT of say... 130-150 degs instead of 200+ that you will see once heat soaked. Typicall 130-150 is the IATs when its like 60 degs ambient temp outside but one can see 200+ running around the track in Las Vegas when it's 110 degs ambient.

Not sure if all that made sense.. would love for some folks industry folks to chime in. Where are you guys?