mkonei

totally agree....

NitrogenBalance

The reason that I didn't do a simple hobbs switch is that there would be no linear climb in spray. It would simply be 100% on and 100% off. I need this for more than WOT cooling. Also, in my application it is a magnacharger making only 4.5-5lbs of boost right out of idle. On a turbo that makes 20lbs of boost in a linear fashion the boost switch works perfectly. Using a boost switch for mine wouldn't do as well as the boost is pretty much on or off. No lag. Using the MAF volts you can set up the spray for a much more linear climb rather than "on" and "off".

NitrogenBalance

Here is a link to the system I just finished installing. Thought you might like an example

https://mbworld.org/forums/c36-amg-c43-amg-w202/262025-meth-h20-installed-running-great-pics.html

amx1397

thanks ,,this helped 100% now i may put it on my car.

bobby02c32AMG

just thought I would add something to this old post...
From http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_...?type=gasoline


6. Where can I mount the nozzle?
Pre- or Post- throttle body/carburetor?

• Performance: It makes almost no difference. Before or after the throttle plate(s) won’t change the effectiveness of the fluid. A given amount of fluid will absorb a given amount of heat, whether it is done more before or after the throttle plate really doesn’t matter.
• Installation: It is usually easier to inject pre-throttle body in the intake tube. Easy access, no solenoid required (unless rear-mounting a reservoir). On a carburetor, it can actually be easier to use the #40050 carb spacer plate and a #40060 solenoid for a bolt-in installation. These components are included in our RT and MC series systems.
• In a blow-through carburetor setup with an air-box enclosure around the entire carburetor, injecting after the carburetor is preferable.

Pre- or Post- Supercharger/Turbocharger?

• Centrifugal/Turbo: (Procharger, Vortech, Paxton, Powerdyne, Rotrex, etc.) Never mount an injector nozzle before a centrifugal supercharger or turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum, as well as serve to reduce the atomization. Instead of a fine mist, the compressor housing will create a river of fluid along the outside wall that means we get less benefit and use more fluid.
• Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge.


Finally getting one of these installed this week, I will update and give my impressions after its in.

AIS

A member informed us of the thread and asked us to comment on it.

We've actually sprayed lots of Lysholm superchargers as well Kenne Bells on Mustangs (spraying the water methanol through the throttle body into the supercharger) without any issues. You won't hydro lock the supercharger. You guys will be fine spraying through the supercharger.

If anyone has any questions about water methanol injection feel free to post them here or Pm me directly.

Rodney

hooleyboy

The problem I have as mentioned in another thread. Methanol is found an Automotive cleaners, Like brake parts cleaner. The AMG throttle body housing has a plate built that covers the rear supercharger rotor bearings. However its not a water or air tight fit. The potential for getting the bearing wet with water and methanol is real. If that happens it will ruin the bearings. The methonal will strip the grease out of them and the water combined with the methanol couse cause them to corrode. Resulting in a bearing failure, rendering the whole supercharger.. junk.

Another thing is.. One of the rotors is hollow. wouldn't you be afraid that fluid could build up inside the rotor?

Being a guy who has experienced a supercharger bearing failure. I'm worried about anything other than some air and recirculating crank case oil passing by my supercharger.

AIS

I hear what your saying and its a perfectly understandable and reasonable concern. However, I can tell you that we have literally hundreds of customers running various twin screws or roots style superchargers running water methanol injection or pure methanol injection with no problems. Just step outside of your Mercedes community and look at the many other vehicles running it with no problems.

For example the Chevy Cobalt with its Eaton M62 supercharger. Water methanol injection is extremely common on these engines. Were just one of about 5 other companies who sell systems for this application.

Look at the many Magnacharged, Kenne Bells and Whipple supercharged Corvette's. Literally hundreds of guys running water methanol injection on these engines. They just about have to since these are high compression (11:1) engines in which guys want more power and are installing aftermarket superchargers like the Magnachargers, Whipples, Kenne Bell's etc. Water methanol injection has become a staple item for the Corvette community.

Same goes for the Mustangs, Trailblazers, chargers etc. These guys have been running their engines now for years with out any damage to the bearing. If this was happening we would have an epedimic of damaged superchargers out there and people all over the internet complaining about this. Additionally, we would know about it as well and if that was the case we wouldn't continue to sell them to these type of supercharger owners.

One of the things you have to remember as well is how quickly this fluid flashes off. Especially pure methanol. It literally flashes off instantly when it meets the heat with in the supercharger. No chance of this fluid sitting around and collecting anywhere. Especially not inside of a hollow rotor. Just not going to happen.

Hope this helps explain thing better. Let me know if you have any other questions or feel free to express your thoughts on any of this.

Rodney

blackbenzz

I've been looking into this and was told the same thing as hooleyboy in regards to spraying through the blower. I was told the bearings will fail and cause sc lockup. They also mentioned that there were specific sc's that were made for water injection and the Kleemann blower is not one of these. Not to mention water puddling and possibly causing the engine to hydrolock. I wish I could get a clear answer on this as I would love to be bale to run more boost and cool the IAT's. Do you have any experience on Kleemann blowers specifically? It would be one expensive fix should that charger fail!

MRAMG1

Since I have not owned my KB whipplecharger for years now, and haven't followed up with KB for said reason. Does KB now recommend this

Note, I went to the KB website to see what they say and "[Water Injection? It works, but the orifice, pressure, solenoid etc. must be calibrated (tuned) to the particular application. "

Again, I have had years of supercharging, as early as 1985 with a B/M, and EVERY manufacturer that I have ever talked to stated exactly what I printed above. Many had even offered me to set up their blower with a larger clearance to allow me to spray them. If they were not concerned, why would they off to do this?

Can you do it, sure. Will they stand behind their warranty in the event of a failure?This would be the question that I would ask to anyone comtemplating the use of an water/meth system

I am not trying to be the end all advise/reasoning here. I am just informing what many manufacturers have stated to me.

AIS

A lots changed in the past two years. Its becoming quite common to run water methanol injection pre-compressor on turbo's or centrifugal. We literally set up at least one system a day with pre-compressor injection. having set up somewhere over 500-600 systems in the past two years. We have not had one problem with a customers compressor. I assure you at the rate in which we are setting up systems. If there was an issue we would have an epidemic of damaged impellers and pictures all over the net of this.

Hope this helps.

Rodney

MRAMG1

Hey Rodney:

First off, I am not interested in a set up as I no longer own a C32. Secondly, don't you feel that as a vendor/seller, that you might be just a little biased

I believe it works, I have seen it work, and I fully understand the physics behind them that allows them to work.

However there are numerous owners of AMG's now that do not have an open pocket book. With that being said, what is your guarantee to those that are interested?

Please do not come back with that "we have thousands of users and not one has failed crap".

I am simply trying to give some experience/knowledge that I have learned over the years form several manufacturer's. Yes things always do move forward, and thank God for that. However physics are still physics. I don't know of any new gas laws written by Boyle lately, or for that matter ANY new physic laws.

So I will ask the million dollar question for the sake of those interested, "What is your guarantee on a system?"

AIS

I understand. Whats your question then. "What is your guarantee on a system?" In relation to what?

Rodney

MRAMG1

Simple, as blackbenzz said as one example, after utilizing your system for a period of time and one has their blower bearings fail due to lack of oil/rust from the spray, what happens?

Just an example, as I believe you that MANY KB's have NEVER failed, magnachargers, etc, etc. I picked this example as I was NOT aware that the rear bearing are exposed up until recently.

AIS

By the way. I'm not promoting our system or talking about why your should buy ours over a competitors. I'm merely responding to the discussion of pre-compressor injection.

If you don't want to to believe we have hundreds of systems out there running it this way. Both gasoline and most of our turbo diesel trucks, then OK I nderstand..its the truth though. Just giving you a simple explanation. I've run precompressor injection as far back as 15 years ago when I ran a carburetted draw through turbo set up on a BBC. Dumped the entire fuel system right through the turbo. Worked great. No problems to the impeller. Lots of other guys did the same.

Look at the Anderson Mr Freeze water methanol kit. That things been around for 15 years. I know they have sold thousands of those units over this period of time. I use to be a dealer for them when I made custom supercharger systems many a over 5 years ago. That system doesn't even use a pump. Its use the boost pressure to **** a stream of fluid out of a MIG welding tip right on to the compressor wheel. Still no problems.

Point is, you can look aorund and find thousands of customers on the net in differen tforums running pre-compressor injection. Its perfectly fine to do.

I also posted previously about injecting it before twins screws and roots style superchargers. Their the list of or worrys. Works perfectly fie on them. Look at all the old school superchargers unning dual carbs dumping fuel right through the supercharger.

Rodney

AIS

No way. I use pure methanol on the magnachargers and KB's spraying massive shots trying to get methanol to come out the bottom of the supercharger. The stuff flashes off and evaporates so quickly. Its all gone as soon as it touches the hot surfaces of the rotors or case.

I've done a lot of work with positive displacement superchargers on the dyno and at the track logging everything we can. Were pretty positive nothng is making its way out of the supercharger which is why some are not starting to inject both before and after the posiive displacement supercharger so that we can get some of this into the cylinders too. Look at EGT's. That can tell you a lot about what's going on inthe cylinders and there cmpletelty uneffected when we spray just before the supercharger. If we put that same big shot on a turbo setup and inject just before the throttle body we see EGT's drop. Especially if it has some water in the mix.

Rodney

Dingleberry

does this not just contradict everything that you said? why would hundreds of people, as you say, inject meth/h2o so far away from the throttle body (through the supercharger, or turbo inlets) when it is most effective when sprayed just before the throttle body?

MRAMG1

Let us try again:

Simple, as blackbenzz said as one example, after utilizing your system for a period of time and one has their blower bearings fail due to lack of oil/rust from the spray, what happens?

AIS

You have to understand how we are working with positive displacement superchargers, turbos, centrifugals, NA nitrous applications etc. Nozzle placement varies depending on the application. Go to our tech section and read the article I wrote on nozzle placement. Its goes over this in greater detail. Click on the image or link below. Let me know if you have any questions.

Rodney



http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

AIS

I don't understand your hypothetical question. What kind of supercharger is this? Exactly what model?

Rodney

mrphotoman

I have ran my AIS meth injection system on my srt6 now for 8 months and I have went through many tanks of meth with zero problems. My sig shows the results. I have ran meth on my supercharged cars for 5 years with zero issues.

AIS

Sounds great. You know we wouldn't set up customer with pre-compressor injection if we hadn't already absolutely knew it wouldn't hurt the impeller on a turbo or centrifugal.

Post some pictures for everyone to see.

Rodney

320 dreamer

mrphotoman this is 32krazy! from the drt-6 forum. glad to see you still around. what is the brand of meth unit you are running? im unsure of the long term effects but i am researching this for possible use in the future.

mrphotoman

ais


on/off switch


tank and nozzle

AIS

Wow, really clean under the hood.