Brabus lowering springs
05-09-2004, 11:56 AM
#52
Frank, why do you believe this? There are situations where this can be true if the spring is not stiff enough for the shock or severe bottoming out is induced by the driver without regard to pot holes, speedbumps, or dips, but this is not a typical result of such application of aftermarket springs. If your theory was true, why wouldn't there be lawsuits against spring manufacturers for damaging stock shocks?
In our situation with the C32, AMG has already beefed up the valving specs of the dampers. They are equal in valving to a set of aftermarket Koni's. Some W203 class owners upgrade their suspension to Koni's and H&R or Eibach, etc. Is this upgrade (aftermarket springs) with upgraded shocks (Koni) going to reduce the life of the shock? Will H&R's Sport vs Race springs (for BMW in this example) affect the life of stock shocks at different rates?
All manufacturers of shocks and springs have a small percentage of product that fail prematurely. H&R coilover shocks have failed within 10,000 miles for a few people, including some on this forum, but that is not the norm and the reason for warrenty claims existing.
Most shocks, either factory or aftermarket, will perform under standard after 70,000 miles, which is a lot of miles for a shock if driven very hard. The C32's stock shocks with the stock springs will be less than desireable after 70,000 miles of driving.
A shock exists to control the behavior of the spring. The spring's purpose is to support the weight of the car. Every manufacturer has their ideal combination for a particular car. And every owner has their own idea of what feels best. Sometimes a manufacturer under springs a particular application in a search for more comfort, but with the lowered stance and more than a handful of driving enthusiasts that beat up their cars, the springs cannot prevent the shock from bottoming out, which is the leading cause of shock failure.
If aftermarket springs were to consistantly lead to early stock shock failure, Evosport would not be as successful as they are in moving the quantity of aftermarket springs to their BMW and MB customers.
It all depends on the application. You cannot make generalizations in regards to shock failure across the board. In the C32's situation, it appears that the AMG shocks are capable of handling an aftermarket springs' lowered stance if the spring rates are right.
A survey would be in order. How many of you with aftermarket springs on a C32 have seen shock failure, outside of a given percentage due to defects in materials or worksmanship? If their is failure, it would be good to know what springs to stay away from due to an inappropriate spring rate applied to the C32 specifically.
In our situation with the C32, AMG has already beefed up the valving specs of the dampers. They are equal in valving to a set of aftermarket Koni's. Some W203 class owners upgrade their suspension to Koni's and H&R or Eibach, etc. Is this upgrade (aftermarket springs) with upgraded shocks (Koni) going to reduce the life of the shock? Will H&R's Sport vs Race springs (for BMW in this example) affect the life of stock shocks at different rates?
All manufacturers of shocks and springs have a small percentage of product that fail prematurely. H&R coilover shocks have failed within 10,000 miles for a few people, including some on this forum, but that is not the norm and the reason for warrenty claims existing.
Most shocks, either factory or aftermarket, will perform under standard after 70,000 miles, which is a lot of miles for a shock if driven very hard. The C32's stock shocks with the stock springs will be less than desireable after 70,000 miles of driving.
A shock exists to control the behavior of the spring. The spring's purpose is to support the weight of the car. Every manufacturer has their ideal combination for a particular car. And every owner has their own idea of what feels best. Sometimes a manufacturer under springs a particular application in a search for more comfort, but with the lowered stance and more than a handful of driving enthusiasts that beat up their cars, the springs cannot prevent the shock from bottoming out, which is the leading cause of shock failure.
If aftermarket springs were to consistantly lead to early stock shock failure, Evosport would not be as successful as they are in moving the quantity of aftermarket springs to their BMW and MB customers.
It all depends on the application. You cannot make generalizations in regards to shock failure across the board. In the C32's situation, it appears that the AMG shocks are capable of handling an aftermarket springs' lowered stance if the spring rates are right.
A survey would be in order. How many of you with aftermarket springs on a C32 have seen shock failure, outside of a given percentage due to defects in materials or worksmanship? If their is failure, it would be good to know what springs to stay away from due to an inappropriate spring rate applied to the C32 specifically.
05-13-2004, 02:42 AM
#53
QUOTE]Originally posted by Mach430
50,000 miles is a lot of wear and tear on the shocks. Changing to newer shocks would probably make a noticable difference. For the money, you may want to consider changing to an aftermarket spring and shock. [/QUOTE]
More on this subject in the C Class Forum.
50,000 miles is a lot of wear and tear on the shocks. Changing to newer shocks would probably make a noticable difference. For the money, you may want to consider changing to an aftermarket spring and shock. [/QUOTE]
More on this subject in the C Class Forum.
05-13-2004, 11:07 AM
#54
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ones too fast according to CHP!
FYI,
We had two OE C32 shocks blow out at less then 30K miles (used with springs). Ben's comment is based on actualy experience. This is a very commonly known problem. If you ask anyone in the BMW circles, they will tell you the same thing. For example, on the M cars, same thing. Using lowering springs with US OEM shocks will cause pre-mature failure of the dampers in most circumstances within that 50-60K (or less in some occasions).
Again, YMMV, but this is out actual experience over the last 7-8 years.
This problem is also much more likely to occur on very aggressively driven cars. Which would explain why it does not happen with many in the MB circles, as the cars are simply not driven as hard.
thanks
Brad
We had two OE C32 shocks blow out at less then 30K miles (used with springs). Ben's comment is based on actualy experience. This is a very commonly known problem. If you ask anyone in the BMW circles, they will tell you the same thing. For example, on the M cars, same thing. Using lowering springs with US OEM shocks will cause pre-mature failure of the dampers in most circumstances within that 50-60K (or less in some occasions).
Again, YMMV, but this is out actual experience over the last 7-8 years.
This problem is also much more likely to occur on very aggressively driven cars. Which would explain why it does not happen with many in the MB circles, as the cars are simply not driven as hard.
thanks
Brad
05-14-2004, 01:24 AM
#55
Your point Brad is well taken. There are situations where this will happen, even with BMW. Ben's comments were made about stock shocks wearing out with stock springs at around 50,000 miles, which is not unheard of across marques.
My position regarding the arguments contained herein are with the reasons a stock shock will prematurely fail with an aftermarket spring. I believe it really depends on what spring rate and height you run and how much travel has been reduced within the shocks shaft length before bottoming out. The softer the spring, the lower the stance, the more frequent the bump stop will be utilized. Severe impacts cannot be completely obsorbed by the bump stops and damage is inevitable to the shock at some point sooner rather than later.
If a spring manufacturer was to make a spring that lowered the C32 1.25" in the front and increased the spring rate to offset the springs tendency to coil bind at a similar point within the shock and spring's range of travel, you could successfully install an aftermarket spring with the stock shocks with no ill effects.
A great example of this generalized fallacy can be used with the H&R coilovers on any model car. Let's use the BMW E36 as an example here. If we were to install an aftermarket spring (H&R 60mm) on to the H&R coilover shock, one that was not supplied as a "matched set", would you decrease the life of the shock? It all depends on what spring rate and spring height you are using. If the standard spring on the kit is 180mm and rated at about 340lbs/inch, moving to a 150mm spring and a 275lbs spring will most likely cause problems with bottoming out. Using this same spring rate at the 180mm length would be questionable depending on what ride height you selected, although the coilover designed shocks are made to operate within a shorter range of travel. What would happen if we installed 180mm x 400lbs springs in the front? The car would ride a little stiffer and not affect the life of the shock in any way. A 450lb front spring? Same thing. So, does running a spring with a higher spring rate at the same length on the same shock decrease the life expectancy of the shock? No, if done correctly. The higher lb spring will raise the ride height, but that is the beauty of the coilover design; just adjust it back down to your desired ride height. Same for the rear, which is not a true coilover, but only an adjustable spring perch. Does running a stiffer rear spring with the stock shock cause early failure? No. The stock rear spring is rated at 380lbs/inch and it is quite common to run the DTM rear spring which is about 515lbs, or the Group G spring at 585lbs. This is done all the time not only with H&R but with all coilover designed shocks. It is a way of fine tuning the suspension. Failure usually occurs when lowering springs rates and heights beyond what can be run for a particular car.
Bilstein and Carlsson run the same adjustable shock for the C32 but vary their spring manufacturer and rate somewhat from each other. Will installing the Carlsson springs on the PSS-9 shocks, or the Bilstein springs on the Carlsson shocks shorten the life of the shocks? No. In fact, you could install the PSS-9 springs on the H&R's without affecting shock longevity, although the shocks were not tuned to handle the higher spring rates of the PSS-9's and will therefore ride more roughly than with the H&R springs, which btw are a very good set of coilovers for someone looking to improve the looks and handling of their C32 with almost stock civility on the street.
Random shock failure should not be confused with inappropriate combinations of shocks and springs. JRZ's fail occationally, not because of spring rate typically, but because of random failure or from the stresses of racing which is very hard on a car.
In my opinion, the same aftermarket springs that are made for all W203's will perform differently on each C Class. The H&R or Eibach springs will have a greater likelyhood to fail a C320's shocks than a C32's, which have been valved to a greater compression and rebound setting. Although even here, the spring rates could be too soft for the front of the car.
Interestingly, I have not heard of any C230,240,320 owners who have installed the C32 AMG springs on their cars report any stock shock failures and don't think we will hear of any except the randon defect claim. Ride height has something to do with this as well.
My position regarding the arguments contained herein are with the reasons a stock shock will prematurely fail with an aftermarket spring. I believe it really depends on what spring rate and height you run and how much travel has been reduced within the shocks shaft length before bottoming out. The softer the spring, the lower the stance, the more frequent the bump stop will be utilized. Severe impacts cannot be completely obsorbed by the bump stops and damage is inevitable to the shock at some point sooner rather than later.
If a spring manufacturer was to make a spring that lowered the C32 1.25" in the front and increased the spring rate to offset the springs tendency to coil bind at a similar point within the shock and spring's range of travel, you could successfully install an aftermarket spring with the stock shocks with no ill effects.
A great example of this generalized fallacy can be used with the H&R coilovers on any model car. Let's use the BMW E36 as an example here. If we were to install an aftermarket spring (H&R 60mm) on to the H&R coilover shock, one that was not supplied as a "matched set", would you decrease the life of the shock? It all depends on what spring rate and spring height you are using. If the standard spring on the kit is 180mm and rated at about 340lbs/inch, moving to a 150mm spring and a 275lbs spring will most likely cause problems with bottoming out. Using this same spring rate at the 180mm length would be questionable depending on what ride height you selected, although the coilover designed shocks are made to operate within a shorter range of travel. What would happen if we installed 180mm x 400lbs springs in the front? The car would ride a little stiffer and not affect the life of the shock in any way. A 450lb front spring? Same thing. So, does running a spring with a higher spring rate at the same length on the same shock decrease the life expectancy of the shock? No, if done correctly. The higher lb spring will raise the ride height, but that is the beauty of the coilover design; just adjust it back down to your desired ride height. Same for the rear, which is not a true coilover, but only an adjustable spring perch. Does running a stiffer rear spring with the stock shock cause early failure? No. The stock rear spring is rated at 380lbs/inch and it is quite common to run the DTM rear spring which is about 515lbs, or the Group G spring at 585lbs. This is done all the time not only with H&R but with all coilover designed shocks. It is a way of fine tuning the suspension. Failure usually occurs when lowering springs rates and heights beyond what can be run for a particular car.
Bilstein and Carlsson run the same adjustable shock for the C32 but vary their spring manufacturer and rate somewhat from each other. Will installing the Carlsson springs on the PSS-9 shocks, or the Bilstein springs on the Carlsson shocks shorten the life of the shocks? No. In fact, you could install the PSS-9 springs on the H&R's without affecting shock longevity, although the shocks were not tuned to handle the higher spring rates of the PSS-9's and will therefore ride more roughly than with the H&R springs, which btw are a very good set of coilovers for someone looking to improve the looks and handling of their C32 with almost stock civility on the street.
Random shock failure should not be confused with inappropriate combinations of shocks and springs. JRZ's fail occationally, not because of spring rate typically, but because of random failure or from the stresses of racing which is very hard on a car.
In my opinion, the same aftermarket springs that are made for all W203's will perform differently on each C Class. The H&R or Eibach springs will have a greater likelyhood to fail a C320's shocks than a C32's, which have been valved to a greater compression and rebound setting. Although even here, the spring rates could be too soft for the front of the car.
Interestingly, I have not heard of any C230,240,320 owners who have installed the C32 AMG springs on their cars report any stock shock failures and don't think we will hear of any except the randon defect claim. Ride height has something to do with this as well.
05-14-2004, 04:50 PM
#56
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ones too fast according to CHP!
All good info, thanks for taking the time to type it all up!
I will agree 100% that height has a lot to do with the failure rate. For all the reasons that you stated. This is the main reason that using any aftermarket spring on a OE shock will cause a failure.
Thanks
Brad
I will agree 100% that height has a lot to do with the failure rate. For all the reasons that you stated. This is the main reason that using any aftermarket spring on a OE shock will cause a failure.
Thanks
Brad
05-26-2004, 04:46 PM
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W211 E55 AMG, ML63 AMG, Past 996GT3,ZCPM3,Brabus C32,ML 500
nope, they are fine, we will have em in a few weeks..
If I have ppl in the back and drive hard, it does rub a little.
If I have ppl in the back and drive hard, it does rub a little.
05-26-2004, 04:55 PM
#59
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C32
Originally posted by Vader13
nope, they are fine, we will have em in a few weeks..
If I have ppl in the back and drive hard, it does rub a little.
nope, they are fine, we will have em in a few weeks..
If I have ppl in the back and drive hard, it does rub a little.
06-25-2004, 02:19 AM
#61
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2001 C320ss, 2005 Ford F150 Supercrew, GSXR,
I must say that the Spring threads seem to be ongoing with no definitive answers to some of the common questions.
I must say that I am glad that a few people told me to STFF! Great advice
But still some questions I have noticed are answered in conflicting statements. IMO (learned definitions today) the basic questions come down to
Springs
1. What spring lowers the most? What would the order be from the lowest up to stock using the main spring players; eibach, h&r, intrax, brabus, etc
2. Best ride
3. cost?
Cupkit vs Prokit, etc
Coilovers...
I like the drop of the Intrax on Vadar13 that now I have another choice....
I love the end result, but shopping for suspension is as much of a pain as wheel shopping....
06-25-2004, 02:45 AM
#63
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W211 E55 AMG, ML63 AMG, Past 996GT3,ZCPM3,Brabus C32,ML 500
Dude we have a shipment comming from Europe of the new Intrax W203 springs that I made happen.
I need a test car for fitment and to see if everything is cool.
We can use yours.
If you like the kit I will sell it at cost, but install will be free.
Welcome to R&D
I need a test car for fitment and to see if everything is cool.
We can use yours.
If you like the kit I will sell it at cost, but install will be free.
Welcome to R&D
06-25-2004, 01:36 PM
#65
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Originally posted by Vader13
[B]Dude we have a shipment comming from Europe of the new Intrax W203 springs that I made happen.
/B]
[B]Dude we have a shipment comming from Europe of the new Intrax W203 springs that I made happen.
/B]
06-28-2004, 10:10 PM
#66
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W211 E55 AMG, ML63 AMG, Past 996GT3,ZCPM3,Brabus C32,ML 500
Ok I got like a dozen emails about the Intrax Springs
I will post where to get them (Online) and specs.
A lead person with me on this project is a person from Brabus who works with Intrax now.
We should have the container in a few weeks.
We need to test them as well.
On a C32 and non AMG W203
I need to ask about the C55 now..
I will post where to get them (Online) and specs.
A lead person with me on this project is a person from Brabus who works with Intrax now.
We should have the container in a few weeks.
We need to test them as well.
On a C32 and non AMG W203
I need to ask about the C55 now..
06-28-2004, 10:23 PM
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white and whiter
I'll do it. if they are not too expensive compare to the Renntech one. i've just posted that i want to get renntech maybe from someone used.
I'm only looking to reduce the wheel gap a little, but not a whole lot and improve the overall handling at the same time.
I'm only looking to reduce the wheel gap a little, but not a whole lot and improve the overall handling at the same time.
06-28-2004, 10:27 PM
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W211 E55 AMG, ML63 AMG, Past 996GT3,ZCPM3,Brabus C32,ML 500
Originally Posted by FrankW
I'll do it. if they are not too expensive compare to the Renntech one. i've just posted that i want to get renntech maybe from someone used.
I'm only looking to reduce the wheel gap a little, but not a whole lot and improve the overall handling at the same time.
I'm only looking to reduce the wheel gap a little, but not a whole lot and improve the overall handling at the same time.
