carl

just wondering if there is hope to get close to an stock M3 on track with the H&R CO you guys tested...
can you post both cars time? or any other cars tested, that would be sooooooooo interesting!

Vadim @ evosport

Stock M3 (333HP), stock tires, stock brakes, good driver - 1.40s

Evo-2 M3 (357HP), Michelin Cups, Brembos, Kurt Wagner - 1.30s.

Prasith32

what were the times for your c32 on this track?

otoupalik

Ok, here are the times: (I am going to correct Vadim a bit here as he does nto have all the info)

e46 M3:

Stock (with me driving) 1:34-1:35
- good wether, cool, fast track.

Stock (w/me driving, w/Pilot Sport Cups) 1:32.9
- good wether, cool, fast track.

evolution1 package M3 (w/ lot's of work, w/Cort Wagner driving, Eurotuner Sept. issue) fast lap of 1:30.0
- VERY hot, VERY windy, slow track

C32:

Pulley Kit only (w/ me driving) 1:36.8
- Good weather, fast track

evo2 kit (as the car sits now w/H&R's and sways and brakes) est 1:34's

So the answer is yes, you can be close. The biggest problem is that you will KILL tires as the front does not have enough camber - we are working on that.

Thanks

Brad

carl

thanks for the time info tho =)

Prasith32

Brad,

When you say the pulley kit only on the c32 does that mean no suspension mods?

Is our car that close to the stock m3?

Also with all the suspension mods doesn't 2 seconds seem small especially since the suspension is the biggest downfall of this car?

Thanks.

carl

i think they discussed it before, if there is only one thing can be change, they will choose the coilover, because it speed up on track dramatically because stock suspension let away many HP goes away. and they said something 1.35 just the coilover swap, they didn't say about the sway bars though

JustinTRW

As Brad mentioned, the C32 needs a little more than a simple coilover upgrade. That being said, the H&R kit Vadim is using is a street/track compromise. It could be stiffer for the track. Brad, do you know the spring rates for your H&R CO kit?

Prasith32

Brad,

Do you have any stock times just to compare vs. the m3. I know the m3 will be faster but I just wanted to see how much faster. Also will all the upgrades that your stage II has and the extra power shouldn't you be able to beat a stock m3? Is it the chasiss, the steering that is holding the c32 back?

Thanks

speedybenz

What holds back most any car from quick lap times at a place like Willow Springs with it's long, fast corners is the chassis. You can add 100 Hp but if the chassis won't let the car get around the corner an extra 2-4 mph then you won't be much faster, if at all.

Time comparision: 1999 Suzuki GSXR 750, Dunlop Slicks, warm day, little wind, 1:21.6's. decent rider.

Jeff

otoupalik

Yes, we had just H&R springs - no coils or sways. The reason it woudl not be much more of a gain would be the camber. If we could dial camber in, we would get a much bigger gain! (FYI - we are going to have new front arms made to acomplish this)

Not exactly. H&R is VERY tight on this info. I have a ballpark, but will not put it in print. Guess less then 200lbs.

We are going to have them make a stiffer kit to our specs though, and those rates, we will know and publish.

Yes, it would be faster with CAMBER!!!!! That is such a handicap I cannot even begine to fully explain it!

Yep!

Thanks

Brad

s4iscool

Brad, I am shocked at the spring rate being below 200. I would not have gotten the H&R coilovers had I known this. Admittedly, I prefer a spring rate more suited for the canoyons and track events, but less than 200 sounds extremely soft. I am pleased with the road ride, no stiffer than the stock amg setup. Is the stock spring rate around 150 then? That sounds very low for such a heavy car.

Larry Sonsini

haha!Ok...

and just for the sake of comparison:

2002 clk55, H&R springs, overinflated stock tires, cool day, little wind, granny driver who had never been on a track before: 1:58

Mach430

Since we're all having fun with numbers:

EVOMS: 996TT Stage 4 GT Upgrade 640 HP / 670 TQ -- 1:43
--Same day/conditions that our M3 pulled 1:30s


s4iscool,

Stiffer, while often associate with, is not always necessary for improved handling. In all honesty, we would never release the any number close to the actual H&R spring rates, as it would compromise the integrity of their research. Bottom line, regardless of the spring rate on your coilovers, you should feel much better handling than stock, correct?

Thanks,

Ben

otoupalik

As I said, it was a guess, but you should realize that the suspension is made up of more then just the spring rates, it is the combination of valving and rate. Also, the rate is just a number. You have the kit - does it feel too soft?

The e46 M3 kits are around the same rates and on that car also, they work great!

thanks

Brad

s4iscool

Good point about the other factors. I have the kit from you guys and it is soft but it does extremely well on the street which is what it was made for.

s4iscool

You are correct, the handling is much improved mainly through less body roll. Braking is improved with less brake dive. Comform cruising is not degraded much.

I could see stiffer spring rates helping out expecially up front where the car feels like its bottoming out on moderate bumps. Mind you I did not lower more than 1" in the front.

CynCarvin32

Ben why not just put the spring on a spring dyno and the shock on a shock dyno?!?! The dyno's don’t lie so why not let people know what they are getting?

Most tuner shops have these items sitting around. Just take your coilover to them and get it tested!

Do the same with the carlsson RS and the PSS9 and show us what the real numbers are instead of saying how great it is for the "street and the track". And this idea of stiffer is not always makes me scratch my head every time. Not once have I seen a car where a softer suspension had superior chassis dynamics compared to a stiffer version. Maybe when running spring rates in the 500-700 range at the track but we are talking about street based set-ups here

And the last great E46 I drove had ground control coil-overs and other ground control items and its spring rates were around 500-600 lbs. That was still rather soft (linear springs). The C32 is much softer than that car so clearly a proper suspnsion will not be near the stiffness of the C32 in stock fashion.

s4iscool

CynCarvin32:

I think the H&R coilovers please 99% of the people who get them. They are advertised as a street solution which means it will have to keep spring rates in tune with stock numbers. I have had H&R coilovers in the past and always felt that they were sprung too low BUT I undersatnd 90% of my driving is done on the street and this is where I WANT comfort not track level performance.

On the other point, I do agree that these should be tested further. I see lots of fluff advertising on the MB forums compared to others. Lots of boosting up products without real hard datas or test reviews from independent tech gurus.

I do like seeing more dialog on this forum that the others which seen completely dead and i'm talking to myself.

CynCarvin32

I agree fully with the comment about the fluff on this forum. And yes other forums are dead when it comes tuning a MB.

If you want some real hard figures for C32 specs and such drop me an e-mail and I will give the info as I get it first hand. I have tested various parts and will continue to do so. The springs on the stock C32 are very soft and the fact that the H&R rides just as well worries me greatly. If the two springs are close in rate, and the AMG shock is matched to the AMG spring, how can the H&R be so great. The only difference is the fact that the H&R has ride height adjustability. This car need more spring rate, compression valving, and rebound valving...end of stroy. When set properly the stock roll bars are more than enough and the H&R's still come with the recomendation of getting the bars as well. I have pictures of my car at a good clip and there is nearly NO body roll at all. Bars can fine tune a well set car or mask a bad set-up and make it feel quality.

s4iscool

CynCarvin32:

Please do email me s4iscool @ hotmail with the info you have.
For less than $1500, I am quite happy with the H&R's and I dont expect track performance. I have some extreme cynical views on tuners that i freely share on my "regular" forums but Ill bite my tongue for now.

JustinTRW

Quite frankly, we are all tired of the sidewalling rolling so much that we are practically driving on the rim. CynCarvin and I will be dyno testing the Carlsson RS coilovers in the future and it should be interesting to see how those values come out.

I can understand why Evosport hasn't developed a more aggressive kit for the car yet. I doubt there is much market for it, especially compared to the M3.

CynCarvin32

I forgot how bad this car was stock. With my car back stock with stock wheels, the tires bend over so much that most the side wall is worn off nice and smooth. This is not hte first tread blocks...we are taking the tread rating, temerature rating, and traction rating figues...they are all gone.... along wiht half th P-Zero Rosso logo.

I will try to get some pictures posted. It is a joke.

I had RENNtech camber bushings, springs, shocks and monolite wheels before and the car had near perfect camber settings at about 2 degrees of negative camber (and it looked great). The tires did not roll onto the side wall and you could drive it without destroying tires in 5k miles. How about that!

And these parts have been on the market for over a year now! If you want camber the RENNtech bushings front and back are the way to go. They are polly bushings and they have far better steering response and the car has a new level of driver involvement. Two thumbs up!

otoupalik

LOL - that is funny! Good write-up!

AS for the camber, sounds like you have started the path the right direction (but are these parts still on your car?). BTW, that is not a RENNtech kit - it is made by an australian company and re-badged at 4x the price. We have looked at the kit and find it less then the quality that we like (we have had problems with this manufacturer before - the reason I will not post the name). Also, I want 2.5 degrees, I have never found 2 to be enough for a very agressively driven street/canyon/track car. You will still wear out the outside first, which means you are leaving some corner speed on the table!

Thanks

Brad

CynCarvin32

I never knew I posted what I paid or that I did not know who made them Brad. Always there to talk poorly about others and stir up false trouble...say anything about H&R or its “vendor” and boom you get banned or your posts get removed. Classy stuff!

I my self am not a big fan of venders than can not hold true to a purchase contract. Guess putting things in writing is best as verbal contracts are hard to enforce. Ah the power of Dollar Votes.