smgC32

Let's move all the sway bar discussion to this thread.

Available for the C32, we have the following:

Stock W203: F20/R13
StockC32: F22/R16
Evo: F24/R19
Eibach: F24/R22
H&R: F26/R19

The stock sedan bars have a 7 point spread between the front and rear bars. The C32 bars have a 6 point spread. The Evosport's have 5 points, the Eibach, 2 points, and the H&R's 7 points. What point shall I make?...

Prasith, maybe you would like to sumarize all the previous post regarding sway bars herewith.

CarlJ

The smaller the spread, the less understeer the car will have. Until you crank the rear bar to the point where the back end comes out if you look at it wrong. There should be an ideal bar combo for every spring combo as differences in spring rates will also effect the handling of the car.

I would assume that Evo, H&R and Eibach all have their bars matched to their spring rates.

Zeppelin

Here's my input:

Stock AMG Front 22mm
H&R rear bar 19mm
H&R springs
245 front tires
Still has too much understeer

I think I need a Eibach 22mm rear for testing

CynCarvin32

So the car is said to have body roll when stock. There is no contesting that fact at all!

But with Carlsson RS Coilovers it may look like upgraded bars are not needed. If the car were not as stiff as it is with the RS's on 2 front and rear bars would be helpful I think.

I will let you be the judge:

Pic #1 Stock E46 M3 SMGII (with 19's) -- Ran in the mid 1:40's if I recall

Pic #2 Heavily Modified Z4 with full suspension upgrade, BABY BLUE racing brakes (ok that was freaking less than masculine -- who puts baby blue brakes on a Black/Black Supercharged Z4), Supercharger, wheels and tires etc... (Ran a best lap of 1:44xx while the C32 ran consistent 1:36xx's)

Pic #3 C32 with 18 inch RENNtech wheels, StopTechs and Carlsson RS Coilovers set to "2" front and back (best track setting)

I will let you decide what the car needs but I think it is fairly flat as is. Could it get a little flatter? Sure... but its so slight at this point that other items need more attention IMHO. As for understeer, the car is far more neutral than stock and any further reduction in understeer should come from wider front tires and more negative camber and not with bars. Bars can fine tune the car but should not be used to mask a poorly set vehicle. Going to stiff in the rear bar can cause adverse effects.

We shall post further research photos when they become available. Our head engineer Mr. Galperini is working on some new designs to make the C32 even more of an EVO/Sti Killer.

Salvadori, What are your thoughts?

Any thoughts?

Zeppelin

Eric- You cannot put wider than 235 tires on the front of a C32 with coilovers. Steve proved this by messing up his fender from tire contact. Also no one makes a product yet to give more negative camber. So what are you suppose to do in the mean time? A stiifer rear sway will definitely dial out some more understeer on Steve's car. I dont use sway bars to eliminate body roll, I use them to help balance the car.

smgC32

Now that my fenders are rolled, with a wheel ET of 32, I would still have a problem putting 245's up front on the 8.5" rim width, but a ET30 8.5 may work with the extra fender clearance. I would have to buy a new wheel to find out! A 245 would work fine on a 8" rim width with an ET of 35 without a problem, although there would be more sidewall flex, I would prefer this set up. Zep, your stock rear wheels on the front will not clear coilovers as you have only about 1mm clear to the strut tube with the ET34 8.5 wheel and need 3mm additional for coilovers.

As for sway bars, my car no longer appears to understeer anymore than any other car at the track, as any car will push if you drive it too hard into the corner. The car is now very predictable and will oversteer just by thinking about it. Tire selection I believe makes a big difference not only within this context, but in relation to braking performance as well. The car is so stiff in the rear now with the RS's on 2, that in effect, I have stiffened the rear equally to what a bigger bar would have done for a car with a much softer shock/spring combo in the rear. Cars that have followed me around the track have said that the car looks neutral around the corners.

sire

would you say a 235 front and 265 rear on 18" style iv amgs would be over doing it? bit concerned about the 265/30s on the rear as stock is only 245/35... what do you guys reckon? worthwhile?

CynCarvin32

I am aware of tire width issues with the strut tube. 245's can fit with proper off-sets and this is fact (might need new wheels first and that is not cheap at all). Believe me the car does not rub at all ... ever .. on any surface... I have tested it many times!

And with enough work we can get camber plates or maybe just a set of pillow mount KW coil-overs. Steve and I never rule out any possibility for future work to the car. Might camber plates be a pain? Yes! but if we can get some made for a reasonable price why not? Never hurts to try.

My take is that the car needs no upgraded sway bars. Last car I drove with a huge rear bar skipped and hopped around the road and is now totaled after having been driven off a 150 ft cliff! (no i was not driving it at that point... the owner was)

But the C32 is neutral enough for now and tire wear is far better than any other C32 I have ever seen at the track. My regards to Carlsson for a great kit! Bars wont be of any help I think.

Time to pull weight out of the car.

CHATMANR

Are these Carlsson RS coilovers different from the ones I bought at TireRack last year, or is it a new name for an part?

Zeppelin

O.K. - the bottom line is 245 tires in the front will not make any difference over a 235 in the front. In fact, alot of the brands 235's are wider than a Toyo,Pilot Sport, or GS-D3. But fitting a 245 on the front with coilovers and without flaring the fender - I would like to see that.

My front tires wear much more evenly than Steves car did. Mine show no more wear on the outer edge of the fronts than the rears. I'm wondering if more negative camber will even benefit my car. Plus the inside of the front tires is wearing just as fast as the outside so more neg. camber will make this worse.

Anyway- keep up the good feedback, because I'm sure we will all benefit from this. I think I am done with modding the C32 for now, with plenty of power and adequate handling it will suffice as my daily driver.

Lets keep that next track day thought fresh in our minds.

CynCarvin32

I would be shocked if TireRack had these parts last year. The Carlsson RS kit is not even officially imported to the USA at this point in time. There are several ways to get them right now but no official Carlsson distribution system.

One source is through Harris on this board. If you have questions about pricing and availability he should know.

CynCarvin32

Well the level of camber for the streets and the track are totally different. The street likes having no camber at all but a track car should have around 2-2.5 degrees of negative camber. His E36 has over 3 degrees of negative camber up front and its tire wear is spot on perfect (along with tire temps).

The tire wear differences between the two cars could have something to do with drive style in this case. Steve and I tend to drive the car at the limit all the time in an effort to find the extra few seconds left in the current set-up. I have never seen you at the track or gone for a ride so I can not speculate quite yet but that is possible answer to the different levels of tire wear.

As for the next track day, you can rest assured you will be the first to know about our next registration . Should be a blast. Which car would you bring?

Zeppelin

It depends on the track. If it is Big Willow then probably the C32. If it is the Streets of Willow then the CRX. I am just curious how my 17 year old CRX on crappy street tires compares to the times of the C32. If it is similar or faster then I will convert the CRX to a Street/Track car.

smgC32

Tirerack used to be the major distributor of Carlsson in the States, selling mostly wheels. Then Oberklasse in Texas took over the title. Now, Carlsson North America in Florida has established itself as the sole importer and distributor for Carlsson in the States as of December of 2003 with a growing dealer network occuring.

As for tire widths, the T1-S, GSD3 and PS are average to above average in width with a large percentage of tires being equal or smaller in section width. For streets tires, the S03 is one of the few tires that is significantly larger in mounted section width. My car only had rubbing issues on the passenger side as the fender tolerance was off by more than 1/8". Tim, your fenders looked like they would accomodate more tire than my car. A 2mm decrease in ET on an 8.5" wheel with a 245 Rosso could clear a coilover on some cars. Same fitment issues regarding rear wheels. I have never had a rubbing problem with 9.5's and 265's even at 12.5" ride height and most others do. Again, an 8" wheel with a 245 would fit without a problem. Norm and others run 255's on the front with a smaller wheel width without a problem.