bmw instructor

Computers rob you of HP on track and is the reason for all problems, including braking, tires, transmmission, and handling. Run on only on dyno.

For those of you worried about no ABS with little practice you will be able to stop faster than ABS! "Go slow to go fast" and you to can run on dyno.

I am sponsored by Mercedes Benz of New Hampshire to run this particular modified C32 at racing schools. I teach for different racing schools besides BMW. The idea is to make this car competitive at schools in order to generate more AMG sales for MB. This car on dyno is faster than some M3 and others on the rack. In the rain faster that a lot of the other cars on dyno.

No! Your average MB dealer will not make these changes for you but you can work with a willing AMG technician and have it done. I am talking about remapping the advance curve to run higher fuels like racing fuels and a lot more things. You will gain 5 to 8 feet in braking with stainless brake line, racing pads and high temp brake fluid. The rims are the perfect size for racing just get race tires and forget all the fancy rims and such!!!!!!!! More later.

Thank you.

smgC32

Are you speaking from experience? Did you just get back from a track event running the C32 in dyno mode? Do you have comparable times running on dyno mode vs. running with ESP on, ESP off, ESP off/ASR off?, etc. to confirm your claim? Not a challange, but a question based on facts. I will agree with you that the computer ruins the party in this car and have already received instructions on how to turn these distractions off for my next track event.

You say; "You will gain 5 to 8 feet in braking with stainless brake line, racing pads and high temp brake fluid."

I have to disagree with you there. Braking is limited to the adhesion of the tires. Stock brake systems will brake within the same distances as BBK's or with the upgrades you mention as long as the system does not exceed its operating temperature parameters. With repeat heavy braking, like experienced on a track, you may seen improvements well beyond your suggested 5 to 8 feet, due to the stock systems inability to shead heat. The more you run the stock system on the track repeatedly, the greater the stoping distances will be until brake failure occures by way of loss of pedal pressure due to boiling of fluid, directional fade due to pad temperature limits, or fade due to the pad "melting" at its surface and therefore not providing the friction needed to stop effectively. As for the stainless steel lines, they do nothing for stopping distances, only provide better and more consistant pedal modulation and feel under heavy braking.

Looking forward to further input as to how to run this car faster. Thanks.

cschow

I did the stainless steel brake line upgrade this spring, along with some better, but still street level pads, and switched over to a high temperature brake fluid. (Unfortunately, as part of Service B, the MB dealer flushed the brake fluid back to stock.) The stainless steel lines and high temperature fluids were done before the pads. At my admitedly barely intermediate level skill of driving, I've noticed no improvements whatsoever from the steel lines.

Incidentally, who's going to the MBCA DE at Summit Point this weekend? Assuming I get in, I should be there. Unfortunately, Evosport recently informed me that they don't have any, and won't have for about 2 weeks, any water pump pullies, so my car will be running a strange combination of Stage-1 software with stock pullies. :-(

bmw instructor

1. Steel lines good for two feet.
2. Race rubber good for five or more feet.
3. Race brakes and fluid good for braking consistantly on long races.
4. No Computer and 32 years of racing many more feet.

PS; You will always be faster than ABS, period. and yes I have been running on Dyno. It's the only way to run on the track and get your car back from MB.



Thank you.

smgC32

Do you own a C32? or does MB give you a loaner for the track instruction days?

Interesting debate. I have never read any reputable sources that have made claims to decreasing stopping distances with stainless lines. Maybe it is the better feel of the pedal you are experiencing. Have you done xx mph to 0 stop testing to confirm? Most drivers could potentially experience better stopping distances from stainless lines since they offer better feel and can modulate the pedal at the threshold better in theory, but rubber lines just require a different effort and feel to them to stop just as well with experience.

I will agree with the R compound tire analysis, although a decrease in distance is dependant on which brand you are running. I also agree with higher friction coefficient pads.

I don't understand #4. The C32 has not been around for 32 years... My BMW without any computer attached runs six seconds faster than the C32 at the same track with over 100 less hp, although it does weigh significantly less so that is a mute point. If the particular car in question is set up correctly and was superior in its suspension design, you don't need computers. Case in point, my BMW has better feel at the track than almost anything driven on the street these days. Why, because the E36 chassis, and especially modified, is one of the most enjoyable chassis to drive at the limit.

As for you PS, 98.3% of all drivers will stop in a longer distance without the aide of ABS. Even track school day drivers will not have the experience to modulate the pedal at threshold to prevent wheel lock up, especially while turning. I will agree that ABS does get in the way sometimes as I have experienced this with the C32. Sometimes the brakes engage when you don't want them to and you must lift off the brakes to increase steering angle on some tight turns where ABS would not have allowed you to do this. Happened ever lap at several corners at SOWS CCW, even in the 996TT.

What do you mean by getting your car back from MB by running on dyno mode? They confiscate your car if found running with ESP on? lol.

bmw instructor

I own the C32.

I have raced for 32 years, open and closed wheels.

MB and "others" who I will not name in this forum are providing support for all that I am doing. They are working with me very hard to go faster including Dyno and anything else I want or need.

There is a possibility of racing the C32 in the future but all that is dependent like all racing on "sponsorship".

Thank you.

smgC32

According to Brad's calculations, he has raced for over 70 years and no MB sponsorship... oh well, guess they figure he is too old! lol. How many hours on the clock independant of years? That is great if MB wants to provide you with sponsorship dollars or factory backing with technical "upgrades" or secrets. It is with this kind of factory involvement that each one of us C32 owners can explore the limits of the car by "unlocking" those pesky safety nets build in to keep most drivers going straight. I would be nice if you could share some of those secrets with us all here. Without mentioning names of course. What times are you running and at which tracks? Before and after the factory sponsored mods? This time statistic is very useful in comparing the benefits of the mods, as well as comparing your successes with others campaigning a C32 at the track. Your input is welcomed and appreciated.

Maybe your connections are looking for a West Coast driver to show off the AMG badge at tracks over on this side of the country. I am happy to oblige. Do you get free tires!!

How are your stock brakes at the track? What pads are you running? What fluid did you select? What shade of gold are your calipers?

Have you run with any other forum members at the track? How are your times in dyno mode compared with Norm's setup?

Are you being supplied with custom camber plates. This car needs at least 3 degrees of negative to be competitive and provide even temps across the tires tread surface. I will buy some plates cash right now if they are available even at a cost of $1,000.00.

What suspension are you running and how do you like it? What wheel/tire combo are you running?

In order to be competitive in racing with this car, it will no longer be street driveable. You will need to loose 600 lbs, with the benefit of loosing all computer intervention. Then you can install my custom steering wheel adapter and wiring harness and run a MOMO 300mm!

smgC32

I just got off the phone with Saban. He is sending the Red Ranger over to show me how to access the power of Dyno mode and transform my car into a real beast. All we need is five C32's for a Megazord.

bmw instructor

Get on Dyno and anything else that you can and you will have your car back.

Good luck!

bverotti

One would be praying for computers if the car takes of and lands besides the track. Hehe !

bmw instructor

If you take the time to go slow with no computer you will in the end have a more controllable car on the track and safer!

Just start slow and you will always be faster in the end and it will be you not the computer driving your car.

Thank you.

smgC32

I am curious if Evosport ran in dyno mode at Eurotuner 2004 at SOWS when they ran their 1:35.8 on race tires, as well as WSIR in 2002. Vadim, Brad?

What are your time differentials pre/post dyno mode at the track?

bmw instructor

We have rented the track for two test moduels but in both we ended up running in the rain.

1. In Dyno mode in the rain we where able to run consistently dependent on the rain between 3 and 4 seconds faster than with the computers on.

2. I have run one BMW Race School also in the rain on Dyno. We did not run any test but I was able to line up first for the instructor run group on Dyno and I was passed by one full blown M3 race car.

3. I never give out lap times at any of the track that I run at and I will limit the information that I am willing to pass along.

4. We have one upcoming test on August 26, 2004 and if that is rained out we will test on September 10, 2004. The next test will be when we can get the weather to cooperate.

Thank you.

smgC32

When you say computer on, do you mean ESP on, or the switch toggled off on the dash?

???
"I never give out lap times at any of the track that I run at and I will limit the information that I am willing to pass along."

What's that all about? Thanks for all your help... I guess we will have to bring out a stopwatch during your testing and find out for ourselves...

bmw instructor

1. When I say on, all computers are on, they are all on, all of them. When I say off, all computers are off, all of them. "Every single computer input is shut down, period".

2. If you are found at the track when I am testing you will be escorted of the track or arrested for trespassing.hahahahahahaha I have a sence of humor too.

Thank you and good luck.

derAMG

nice info you have for us bmw_instructor

i found that 17 inches wheels are best for the stock C32 chasis too, but do you see the C32 would be so much better with a aftermarket LSD? or the current differential configuration is good enough for occautionally track lapping? because i found that the C32 is not too slow on the track even with ESP on, even in tight tight 270 degree turn. All i think a stock C32 needed is a set of semi-race tyres to improve timing on track. (and better stopping distance)

Can you suggest what other kind of minor things can be change to improve track time without doing alot?

rear crossdrill brake disc? rear lip spoiler? grippier tyres? chip? better brake fluids?

Thanks, its nice to know more these formal upgrades

bmw instructor

I will make a short list when I get a time. Just no time at the moment.

derAMG

thanks, maybe you should change your name to MBTestPilot
we are abit sensity to BMW people here, JKJK

smgC32

That was funny! Thanks.

As I am sure you will agree, testing in the rain offers little insight as to dry weather gains. Kind of like testing R compound tires in the rain. What your tests did confirm is that ESP is doing its job in the rain as indicated by the slower times. Overly cautious that ESP is. I have found that times are within one second so far with ESP on vs off. You can get a better time with it off if you don't spin too much, but it is a fine line there, easily exceeded by a heavy foot. A lot of sliding around proved to be 4 seconds slower with it off, but much more intertaining at the cost of a new set of rear tires!! I only drive with it off now, and am looking forward to dyno mode next time out.

I can understand your reluctance to post track times, but what is important is what is the increase/decrease in times from a baseline time that matters. So your quotes of +/- xx seconds faster/slower will suffice.

Norm C32

smgc32, have you run your C32 on the track with stock brakes? I think we went over this before. With fresh fluid a stock brake system on a C32 with at least 50% pad material have never, ever, faded at a road course event. Take the number of MBCA track events since the C32 has been released and a the average number C32s at each of these events and your looking at over 40 oppurtunities for the C32's brake system to over heat and fail. This is not the case. Add an weight of an instructor and DOT race tires for even more stress and the C32 has yet to fail because of boiling fluid, increased stopping distances, or melting stock pads as you mentioned. Your statement is completely false.

I had a 30 minute session at Mid-Ohio in June and about 25 minutes in my 255mm Pilot Cups turned to grease. I came out of one turn and got on the brakes and went right into ABS. I thought there was something wrong with the brakes. The performance of the Cups fell right off within a turn or two. The tires were gone, but came back when I cooled off for a lap. The brakes were fine through this senario and have no doubt about their performance. The only reason to upgrade the brakes would be to lower unsprung mass. I think the C32 could handle another 50hp and the brakes would be fine. This event was following a 996 911TT which only pulled a few car lengths on the back stretch seeing over 125 MPH.

Ever take a look at you stock rear rotor? Mine rear pads continually cleaning rust off rotor. Only at a track event does the rust pitting get cleaned up, and that is only when the ESP intervenes. If the ESP, whether you hit the button on not, never flickers the rear brakes are hardly used on the track.

Dyno mode solves the computer intervention for the experienced driver. bmwinstructor use of dyno mode in the rain gives me confidence to try it next time out.

Norm
Bordeau/Merlot

smgC32

Thanks Norm for the comments. Nice to hear from you. It all depends on the track and how hard you are on the brakes. I upgraded to the BBK before taking the C32 on the track, so I guess with my driving style, we can never be positive about my claim, and no other C32 owner will allow me to drive their car for 30 minutes at 10/10ths at heavy braking tracks to see what happens, but I will go out on the line and say that at SOWS, the stock brakes will absolutely fail. At the larger Willow Springs track, they will not, since the bigger track is much easier on brakes than the smaller track. Ask Brad at Evosport. He will confirm this. During my brake testing in the canyons, I, as well as Eric, could get both of our C32's brakes to completely go away after 7 miles of driving in the canyons, with consistant failure repeatability after every lap around our plotted canyon circle. Higher temp racing pads would help the situation with the stock calipers. I think the stock system is great for most users who either don't explore the limits of their brake system or don't run courses that require repeated "heavy" braking.

I have reviewed over two hours of in car tapes of Summit Point and that track is much easier on brakes than SOWS. I guess Norm, you have yet to drive one of our southern california tracks like SOWS or Buttonwillow to experience stock brake fad on heavy braking tracks. I don't doubt your capabilities as a driver as rumor has it you are one of the fastest guys out there in a C32 and I respect that. I think I just push my cars a little harder than most to squeeze out every drop of performance regardless of the cost of track consumables. I am very hard on brakes, as witnessed by my turning a silver BBK caliper from titanium, to gold, to bronze, with the black hats now a nice shade of red. I'll know when I reach the true potential of the BBK when the hats turn gold like on world challenge Vipers.

Without dyno mode and with street tires, I am within one second of Evosports car which ran SOWS in similar conditions at Eurotunerfest this year. If I had those SPSSR tires, I would have beat their times. In our last track day CCW at SOWS, we consistantly exceeded 110mph in the C32 (120 in the 996TT) on the front straight going down hill, slowing down to under 30mph every minute and a half for thirty minutes each. No problem in the C32 with the BBK. Last lap of the first session, the 996's brakes went away and we were easier on those brakes for the remaining sessions throughout the day. I don't think the the stock C32's brakes are better than the Porsche 996TT's? In addition, there are a few other very heavy braking zones in that direction that would have melted stock MB pads guaranteed. I did not take a picture, but many observers during my brake pad change at the track wondered what all that white ash was doing on the sides of my pads. This is normal for track pads that are used heavily. If I ran some front street pads, like the Axxis, on th BBK at the same track, they would have disintegrated, cracked, glazed, and left so much pad material on the rotors surface, that I would have needed new rotors due to excessive uneven deposits. I know of some BBK users that have tried to run street pads on "our" tracks that have experienced the same. If a BBK with their additional cooling capabilities can't run street pads, I don't think the MB calipers with street pads could do better.

I think that another member of the forum, Prasith, has a problem with boiling fluid or fade with the stock set up. Maybe he can comment.

I am constantly checking my rotors and pads, as well as lug bolt torque on a weekly basis. My rotors have a nice coating of even pad material spread across their face. With this process of proper bedding, the rotors will see very little wear as the constant pad material transfer back and forth extends their life.

Even with the ESP button off, we get the sign to flicker frequently. With ESP ON, it seams like the sign is always flickering at SOWS.

derAMG

you guys push your C32 way harder than i ...
because i ran a small high speed track with lots of corners, but my brakes never fade for like 30-40 laps (of course i stop every 8-10 laps) and my stock michlin tyres still has lots of thread left maybe i kept ESP ON and in D all the way

Prasith32

man I go away for a week and you guys start this interesting thread about track days without me.

I have heard a lot of great things about bmwinstructor and know that he has been racing for a long long time so I believe his comments about this car and how fast it can go. Also he had told me that he has never experienced fade on the same tracks that I have. I can only think that this is due to my relative inexperience as a track driver. It could also be my car as I have complained about fade from the very beginning when I started tracking the car.

Now all that stuff aside I do have some inputs as to the functioning of our stock brake system and what I have observed over the course of 10 track days, few autoX and some "spirited driving"

I have tried the following configuration with our system over the course of many track days.


Configuration 1
Stock MB pads - 60% left, Stock MB fluids - new fluid flush by dealer

Track - Lime Rock Park - BMW Driving Event

Driving
My first track event so I was taking it slow. The brakes felt fine and never faded and never lost any pedal feel. However a club racing buddy of mine and an amazing driver took it out for a session and afterwards it felt a little much much softer. Still had good pedal feel and braking ability though for the rest of my session.

His conclusion was to switch to high performance fluids and a better pad as most of the pad was gone at the end of the day.

Configuration 2
Stock MB pads - 100% left, ATE Super Blue Full Flush

Track - Lime Rock Park - BMW Driving Event

Driving
This was my 3rd event so I felt a little more comfortable pushing the car. I also had an awesome instructor who used to do professional rallying in Europe (I have had good luck with instructors). He took my car out and we got the brakes nice and heated up. I also put a lot of stress on the brakes as well. Coming into Big Bend I was consistently getting into ABS. The brakes held up fine throughout the day. No real fading but there was definitely loss of pedal feel. Braking distances were pretty consistent.


Configuration 2
Axxis Hi-Perf Street/Track Pads 100% - ATE Super Blue Full Flush

Track - NHIS - Test and Tune Session
Extended test and tune event approximately 4 hrs of open track. I got to really drive the car and had an instructor (club racer) with me that drove the car too. I went first for about 1/2 hr and was scared out of my mind. This was a day right before a SCCA regional race so all the SCCA racers were around. This was open passing and there was a Busch North car that would thunder by me and lap me and generally make an *** out of me every couple of minutes or so. I had nightmares about it. The brakes seemed fine through this but I did notice a loss of pedal feel after about 20 minutes.

Anyways then my instructor took the car and we started playing cat and mouse with a modified miata (which is a very competent car on a track like this). This was to get me more used to the nuances of driving in an open racing type environment. He was driving about 9/10 ths I would say and complained of loss of pedal feel and increased braking distance by about 15 -20 mins. After about 30 minutes he stopped and we went in to cool off the car.

The brakes were smoking when we were coming into the pits and it took a good 10 minutes to cool them off. Basically at this point the fluid had boiled. The pedal loss was a lot softer but thankfully the day was almost over and I just worked on my line.


Configuration 3
Porterfield R4E Track Pads 100% - ATE Super Blue Bleed Only - Kumho Victoracers

Track - NHIS - Test and Tune Session

Another Test and Tune Session with the Porterfield R4E's. This time I was the only one driving but I did have an instructor with me. I had a lot of fun and the R4E were awesome. Good braking power and I was much more comfortable when the formula fords were whizzing by me. I could drive for 25 minutes hard and noticed no brake loss. However by about 35 minutes or so I definitely noticed a loss in brake pedal and I would be into ABS much earlier than before.

Track - Summit Point
Used the same configuration for Summit Point and went solo and with instructor for extended driving session (50 minutes each). The brakes performed awesome and never once did I experience anything like I experienced in NHIS. I was very hard on the brakes and managed to get into ABS on most turns.


So that is basically my summary of what I had noticed. I do use ABS a lot and that is something that I am going to start working on. I just have too much of an infatuation with trying to go fast right away which is going to hurt me in the long run.

I am still not sure if I really need a BBK at this point and though I have one lying around I am trying to evaluate if I really need it.

I would really like to hear others experiences but please don't write as much as I did - I almost put myself to sleep :p :p

Prasith

derAMG

"So that is basically my summary of what I had noticed. I do use ABS a lot and that is something that I am going to start working on. I just have too much of an infatuation with trying to go fast right away which is going to hurt me in the long run."

I am exactly like you... when a instructor jump into the drivers seat, i see a big level of difference haha, they could drive it fast, smooth and easy. Anyway, i guess you re way ahead of my driving skills
and indeed, very good summary,
i guess i will go with your current brake configuration, thanks.

smgC32

Glad I could suggest custom making those R4-E's for a few of you guys. Huge improvement over stock pads. Prasith, did you test your R4-R's out yet?

We usually take two or three cars to each track event at SOWS and the C32 typically sees double duty in two sessions in the rotation, and has been flawless with the BBK and Pagid Orange pads. I believe if you guys would run 30 minute back to back sessions in a rotation of three, for a total of 8-10 sessions per day, or about five hours of track duty per day, you would find that stock brakes with stock pads and stock fluid, even with Boris Said driving, will not hold up. I will be at California Speedway this weekend instructing for Drivetech and giving rides in a NASCAR if anyone wants to stop by.