pulley for my C55
02-15-2005, 05:30 PM
#26
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'14 428i M-Sport, '02 C32 AMG
Originally Posted by miroj
At least I didnt ask you for $600 for wasting your time.
you're just another forum troll, sad...seems to be a trend on boards these days. what happened to competent people and car enthusiasts who actually knew a thing or two? not everybody knows everything and one of the purpose of the board is to learn, but you should know when to quiet down when you are arguing with someone with superior knowledge like Vadim. just own up to your lack of knowledge and admit to your lies, quit while you are behind and at least save some small dignity, or better yet, keep this up for good comedic measure...
02-15-2005, 05:33 PM
#27
Originally Posted by KompressorKev
whatever dude. you have absolutely no rebuttal or way to get out of this. you claim to be a "drag-racing engine builder" but its clear you don't know any fundamentals, and then try to argue with engineer Vadim from Evosport? whenever someone points this out, you simply comeback with some whack comeback that has nothing to do with the topic.
you're just another forum troll, sad...seems to be a trend on boards these days. what happened to competent people and car enthusiasts who actually knew a thing or two? not everybody knows everything and one of the purpose of the board is to learn, but you should know when to quiet down when you are arguing with someone with superior knowledge like Vadim. just own up to your lack of knowledge and admit to your lies, quit while you are behind and at least save some small dignity, or better yet, keep this up for good comedic measure...
you're just another forum troll, sad...seems to be a trend on boards these days. what happened to competent people and car enthusiasts who actually knew a thing or two? not everybody knows everything and one of the purpose of the board is to learn, but you should know when to quiet down when you are arguing with someone with superior knowledge like Vadim. just own up to your lack of knowledge and admit to your lies, quit while you are behind and at least save some small dignity, or better yet, keep this up for good comedic measure...
02-15-2005, 11:30 PM
#29
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2010 E350 SP / Honda Crosstour / prior vehicles - C32 modded / C300 modded / Lincoln LS modded
Pulley's
I live in Costa Mesa as well. Did Evo do the complete pulley system or just one pulley. Intrested in what it cost you.
02-16-2005, 12:03 AM
#30
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Well evanswan im not too sure about the whole pulley system, it was a kit, i believe there were two belts, and two circular pieces, The cost was i believe around 400 in change. I could feel a difference, and would recommend it. Oh and yeah EvoSport did the whole thing. I would love to see your car, where in CM are you at?
02-17-2005, 02:30 AM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
this has got to be one of the more linguistically stimulating threads i have read. kudos to miroj for entertaining me for the past couple minutes!
never-the-less, you guys totally missed miroj's argument. all he said was that atmospheric changes affect engine performance much more than a pulley kit. and he is 100% correct. ecu's dial back timing at high altitudes due to low levels of oxygen, which means the engine will loose substantial amounts of power. vadim's statement that the ecu can overcome altitude is misleading. the ecu dials back timing in order to avoid detonation. cars are like people, i cant breath at high altitudes, neither can my car.
another one of miroj's arguments was this: why would you want to change something that was designed from the factory for optimum reliability, drivability, etc.? face it, the engineers in stuttgart are smarter than you, if it was such a great idea with no drawbacks, the factory would equip all cars with underdrive pulleys. mb is in business to sell product, if they could realize 5-10hp from a different pulley design, they would do it in a heartbeat. take a minute and understand what a underdrive pulley accomplishes. why do you suppose that underdrive pulleys are not recommended for people with upgraded sound systems?
never-the-less, you guys totally missed miroj's argument. all he said was that atmospheric changes affect engine performance much more than a pulley kit. and he is 100% correct. ecu's dial back timing at high altitudes due to low levels of oxygen, which means the engine will loose substantial amounts of power. vadim's statement that the ecu can overcome altitude is misleading. the ecu dials back timing in order to avoid detonation. cars are like people, i cant breath at high altitudes, neither can my car.
another one of miroj's arguments was this: why would you want to change something that was designed from the factory for optimum reliability, drivability, etc.? face it, the engineers in stuttgart are smarter than you, if it was such a great idea with no drawbacks, the factory would equip all cars with underdrive pulleys. mb is in business to sell product, if they could realize 5-10hp from a different pulley design, they would do it in a heartbeat. take a minute and understand what a underdrive pulley accomplishes. why do you suppose that underdrive pulleys are not recommended for people with upgraded sound systems?
Last edited by schwarzwagen; 02-17-2005 at 02:33 AM.
02-17-2005, 06:32 AM
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by blackstunna
on the Star Diagnose, how can evosport have it if it's offered bythe dealer?
02-17-2005, 06:45 AM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by schwarzwagen
this has got to be one of the more linguistically stimulating threads i have read. kudos to miroj for entertaining me for the past couple minutes!
never-the-less, you guys totally missed miroj's argument. all he said was that atmospheric changes affect engine performance much more than a pulley kit. and he is 100% correct. ecu's dial back timing at high altitudes due to low levels of oxygen, which means the engine will loose substantial amounts of power. vadim's statement that the ecu can overcome altitude is misleading. the ecu dials back timing in order to avoid detonation. cars are like people, i cant breath at high altitudes, neither can my car.
another one of miroj's arguments was this: why would you want to change something that was designed from the factory for optimum reliability, drivability, etc.? face it, the engineers in stuttgart are smarter than you, if it was such a great idea with no drawbacks, the factory would equip all cars with underdrive pulleys. mb is in business to sell product, if they could realize 5-10hp from a different pulley design, they would do it in a heartbeat. take a minute and understand what a underdrive pulley accomplishes. why do you suppose that underdrive pulleys are not recommended for people with upgraded sound systems?
never-the-less, you guys totally missed miroj's argument. all he said was that atmospheric changes affect engine performance much more than a pulley kit. and he is 100% correct. ecu's dial back timing at high altitudes due to low levels of oxygen, which means the engine will loose substantial amounts of power. vadim's statement that the ecu can overcome altitude is misleading. the ecu dials back timing in order to avoid detonation. cars are like people, i cant breath at high altitudes, neither can my car.
another one of miroj's arguments was this: why would you want to change something that was designed from the factory for optimum reliability, drivability, etc.? face it, the engineers in stuttgart are smarter than you, if it was such a great idea with no drawbacks, the factory would equip all cars with underdrive pulleys. mb is in business to sell product, if they could realize 5-10hp from a different pulley design, they would do it in a heartbeat. take a minute and understand what a underdrive pulley accomplishes. why do you suppose that underdrive pulleys are not recommended for people with upgraded sound systems?
Some have stated seeing maybe even just a 4-5hp inc on the dyno. Out of the 4 cars I own I have one on my 413whp Eagle Talon only because the stck pulley breaks apart when you exceed 350whp.
The altitude argument I agree with as well,your car does lose hp at higher altitudes.
02-17-2005, 12:32 PM
#35
Originally Posted by schwarzwagen
this has got to be one of the more linguistically stimulating threads i have read. kudos to miroj for entertaining me for the past couple minutes!
never-the-less, you guys totally missed miroj's argument. all he said was that atmospheric changes affect engine performance much more than a pulley kit. and he is 100% correct. ecu's dial back timing at high altitudes due to low levels of oxygen, which means the engine will loose substantial amounts of power. vadim's statement that the ecu can overcome altitude is misleading. the ecu dials back timing in order to avoid detonation. cars are like people, i cant breath at high altitudes, neither can my car.
another one of miroj's arguments was this: why would you want to change something that was designed from the factory for optimum reliability, drivability, etc.? face it, the engineers in stuttgart are smarter than you, if it was such a great idea with no drawbacks, the factory would equip all cars with underdrive pulleys. mb is in business to sell product, if they could realize 5-10hp from a different pulley design, they would do it in a heartbeat. take a minute and understand what a underdrive pulley accomplishes. why do you suppose that underdrive pulleys are not recommended for people with upgraded sound systems?
never-the-less, you guys totally missed miroj's argument. all he said was that atmospheric changes affect engine performance much more than a pulley kit. and he is 100% correct. ecu's dial back timing at high altitudes due to low levels of oxygen, which means the engine will loose substantial amounts of power. vadim's statement that the ecu can overcome altitude is misleading. the ecu dials back timing in order to avoid detonation. cars are like people, i cant breath at high altitudes, neither can my car.
another one of miroj's arguments was this: why would you want to change something that was designed from the factory for optimum reliability, drivability, etc.? face it, the engineers in stuttgart are smarter than you, if it was such a great idea with no drawbacks, the factory would equip all cars with underdrive pulleys. mb is in business to sell product, if they could realize 5-10hp from a different pulley design, they would do it in a heartbeat. take a minute and understand what a underdrive pulley accomplishes. why do you suppose that underdrive pulleys are not recommended for people with upgraded sound systems?
Its amazing what you can learn driving from Boston MA to Los Angeles CA. Every possible combination of climate and altitude. Even below sea level in some cases. Probably one of the most enlightening times in my life. It really makes me wonder how many noob's actually go out-of-state from flat and sunny seaside CA.
I take my hat off to you. I found at least one member that doesnt give blind worship.
Last edited by miroj; 02-17-2005 at 12:38 PM.
02-17-2005, 01:16 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
lol, funny thread.....take it this way, i wouldn't buy anything that wasn't tested or dynoed for my car........
companies de-tune cars sometimes and of course they build your car to factory specs for optimum reliability. But in this case some of us want more power or other things and that's why we change factory settings, like lowering a car, it might cost more in the long run but it looks good....
btw, star Diagnose is mainly a enhanced scaner....
companies de-tune cars sometimes and of course they build your car to factory specs for optimum reliability. But in this case some of us want more power or other things and that's why we change factory settings, like lowering a car, it might cost more in the long run but it looks good....
btw, star Diagnose is mainly a enhanced scaner....
02-17-2005, 01:29 PM
#37
Originally Posted by alexbenz
lol, funny thread.....take it this way, i wouldn't buy anything that wasn't tested or dynoed for my car........
companies de-tune cars sometimes and of course they build your car to factory specs for optimum reliability. But in this case some of us want more power or other things and that's why we change factory settings, like lowering a car, it might cost more in the long run but it looks good....
btw, star Diagnose is mainly a enhanced scaner....
companies de-tune cars sometimes and of course they build your car to factory specs for optimum reliability. But in this case some of us want more power or other things and that's why we change factory settings, like lowering a car, it might cost more in the long run but it looks good....
btw, star Diagnose is mainly a enhanced scaner....
02-17-2005, 01:44 PM
#38
Finally intelligent replies. Now we can talk, instead of bicker.
Here are the answers:
1.
STAR is available from MB directly, very expensive, but worth it.
2. Of course altitude affects engines performance, but I was not talking about airflow. I was reffering to mechanical losses.
3. [QUOTE]another one of miroj's arguments was this: why would you want to change something that was designed from the factory for optimum reliability, drivability, etc.? face it, the engineers in stuttgart are smarter than you, if it was such a great idea with no drawbacks, the factory would equip all cars with underdrive pulleys. mb is in business to sell product, if they could realize 5-10hp from a different pulley design, they would do it in a heartbeat. take a minute and understand what a underdrive pulley accomplishes. why do you suppose that underdrive pulleys are not recommended for people with upgraded sound systems?[QUOTE]
Alternator and power steering pump are made by other suppliers, not MB. Cost is a major issue. Cast steel pulley will always be cheaper than billet aluminum.
With modern engine designs achieving HP goal is not a problem. Achieving it within a cost constrain is what they spend most of their time on.
Here are the answers:
1.
on the Star Diagnose, how can evosport have it if it's offered bythe dealer?
2. Of course altitude affects engines performance, but I was not talking about airflow. I was reffering to mechanical losses.
3. [QUOTE]another one of miroj's arguments was this: why would you want to change something that was designed from the factory for optimum reliability, drivability, etc.? face it, the engineers in stuttgart are smarter than you, if it was such a great idea with no drawbacks, the factory would equip all cars with underdrive pulleys. mb is in business to sell product, if they could realize 5-10hp from a different pulley design, they would do it in a heartbeat. take a minute and understand what a underdrive pulley accomplishes. why do you suppose that underdrive pulleys are not recommended for people with upgraded sound systems?[QUOTE]
Alternator and power steering pump are made by other suppliers, not MB. Cost is a major issue. Cast steel pulley will always be cheaper than billet aluminum.
With modern engine designs achieving HP goal is not a problem. Achieving it within a cost constrain is what they spend most of their time on.
02-17-2005, 02:40 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by miroj
Yeah ..... natural aspiration means it has to breathe in like any other car. My doctor told me that my lungs are 20% larger than most people. When most people are gasping I am running around the top of the mountain. But my car simply cant do it, at least it seems a lot happier at sea level.
Its amazing what you can learn driving from Boston MA to Los Angeles CA. Every possible combination of climate and altitude. Even below sea level in some cases. Probably one of the most enlightening times in my life. It really makes me wonder how many noob's actually go out-of-state from flat and sunny seaside CA.
I take my hat off to you. I found at least one member that doesnt give blind worship.
Its amazing what you can learn driving from Boston MA to Los Angeles CA. Every possible combination of climate and altitude. Even below sea level in some cases. Probably one of the most enlightening times in my life. It really makes me wonder how many noob's actually go out-of-state from flat and sunny seaside CA.
I take my hat off to you. I found at least one member that doesnt give blind worship.
People use pullies on their BMW race cars but then again those cars are not being asked to last as long as a road going car and they do not need the electrical drive a full optioned out road car does.
Last edited by CynCarvin32; 02-17-2005 at 03:03 PM.
02-17-2005, 02:57 PM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by Vadim @ evosport
Finally intelligent replies. Now we can talk, instead of bicker.
Alternator and power steering pump are made by other suppliers, not MB. Cost is a major issue. Cast steel pulley will always be cheaper than billet aluminum.
With modern engine designs achieving HP goal is not a problem. Achieving it within a cost constrain is what they spend most of their time on.
Alternator and power steering pump are made by other suppliers, not MB. Cost is a major issue. Cast steel pulley will always be cheaper than billet aluminum.
With modern engine designs achieving HP goal is not a problem. Achieving it within a cost constrain is what they spend most of their time on.
02-17-2005, 03:15 PM
#42
Originally Posted by Vadim @ evosport
Finally intelligent replies. Now we can talk, instead of bicker.
.........
Alternator and power steering pump are made by other suppliers, not MB. Cost is a major issue. Cast steel pulley will always be cheaper than billet aluminum.
With modern engine designs achieving HP goal is not a problem. Achieving it within a cost constrain is what they spend most of their time on.
.........
Alternator and power steering pump are made by other suppliers, not MB. Cost is a major issue. Cast steel pulley will always be cheaper than billet aluminum.
With modern engine designs achieving HP goal is not a problem. Achieving it within a cost constrain is what they spend most of their time on.
We had that poo-fest over "ECU + M271 pulley" v's "M271 pulley only" .... your main argument on that was identical to the one that you just made at Benz.
Compromise, best compromise, best fit ? Its all smoke and mirrors !
02-17-2005, 03:16 PM
#43
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by miroj
Yeah ..... natural aspiration means it has to breathe in like any other car. My doctor told me that my lungs are 20% larger than most people. When most people are gasping I am running around the top of the mountain. But my car simply cant do it, at least it seems a lot happier at sea level.
Its amazing what you can learn driving from Boston MA to Los Angeles CA. Every possible combination of climate and altitude. Even below sea level in some cases. Probably one of the most enlightening times in my life. It really makes me wonder how many noob's actually go out-of-state from flat and sunny seaside CA.
I take my hat off to you. I found at least one member that doesnt give blind worship.
Its amazing what you can learn driving from Boston MA to Los Angeles CA. Every possible combination of climate and altitude. Even below sea level in some cases. Probably one of the most enlightening times in my life. It really makes me wonder how many noob's actually go out-of-state from flat and sunny seaside CA.
I take my hat off to you. I found at least one member that doesnt give blind worship.
02-17-2005, 03:20 PM
#44
Originally Posted by schwarzwagen
you are right about the cost argument. it would be rather expensive for mb to use billet aluminum pulleys on all their cars. but again, mb could realize economies of scale and a system made of low weight materials could be done for much less than the price customers pay on the retail market. i would imagine that raw aluminum could be attained for a reasonable price. however, it does not satisfy the argument against underdriving the accessories. which was the crux of my argument.
When you consider the mass of an AMG braking rotor and the amount of work in it then look at the mass of material. You can bet that the cost per unit of 1 million pullies is a lot less than 1 million AMG brake rotors. How much does that rotor cost ..... not much.
02-17-2005, 03:23 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by coolcarlskiC43
I agree with you 100% on the pullies and the altitude.With the pullies who can notice a 7-10 hp increase especially for the $ one has to spend on pullies?This is just MY opinion.For each his own I guess.
Some have stated seeing maybe even just a 4-5hp inc on the dyno. Out of the 4 cars I own I have one on my 413whp Eagle Talon only because the stck pulley breaks apart when you exceed 350whp.
The altitude argument I agree with as well,your car does lose hp at higher altitudes.
Some have stated seeing maybe even just a 4-5hp inc on the dyno. Out of the 4 cars I own I have one on my 413whp Eagle Talon only because the stck pulley breaks apart when you exceed 350whp.
The altitude argument I agree with as well,your car does lose hp at higher altitudes.
02-17-2005, 03:26 PM
#46
Originally Posted by schwarzwagen
i have driven across our great country many times, and have seen many things. i give blind worship to no one. however, vadim is in the business to make money. what ever way he accomplishes his goal, so long as it is not illegal, is his prerogative. "thats the american way." if poeple come to him with their wallets open, who is he to turn them away.
02-17-2005, 03:40 PM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by miroj
Since we are talking about AMG engines here .... the ones that are assembled by some dude with his own name plate ..... then I think it is a matter of value and merit. Someone made a choice NOT to do what the tuners are doing. I am quite certain that there is a log book with a reason marked next to it. All of these things have been tried and not put into production.
Originally Posted by miroj
When you consider the mass of an AMG braking rotor and the amount of work in it then look at the mass of material. You can bet that the cost per unit of 1 million pullies is a lot less than 1 million AMG brake rotors. How much does that rotor cost ..... not much.
02-17-2005, 04:23 PM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by schwarzwagen
this is a little o/t but, how much did your M113 conversion cost you?
02-17-2005, 04:37 PM
#49
Originally Posted by schwarzwagen
Yes, i am sure there is a log book with reasons why not.
i would think that braking is more important than possibly picking up a couple hp from some pulleys. thus, AMG allocates more dollars to braking performance in this case. having said that, AMG uses cast iron "manhole covers" on all except for the most expensive models (65s). cast iron rotors are the cheapest way to create braking performance, but have drawbacks (cooling and weight). in the end the cast iron rotors are a cost cutting measure on the 'cheaper' amg offerings. given amg's interest in keeping costs under control, vadim's argument could be valid to some degree.
i would think that braking is more important than possibly picking up a couple hp from some pulleys. thus, AMG allocates more dollars to braking performance in this case. having said that, AMG uses cast iron "manhole covers" on all except for the most expensive models (65s). cast iron rotors are the cheapest way to create braking performance, but have drawbacks (cooling and weight). in the end the cast iron rotors are a cost cutting measure on the 'cheaper' amg offerings. given amg's interest in keeping costs under control, vadim's argument could be valid to some degree.
02-17-2005, 04:52 PM
#50
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C32
Originally Posted by miroj
Since we are talking about AMG engines here .... the ones that are assembled by some dude with his own name plate ..... then I think it is a matter of value and merit. Someone made a choice NOT to do what the tuners are doing. I am quite certain that there is a log book with a reason marked next to it. All of these things have been tried and not put into production.
When you consider the mass of an AMG braking rotor and the amount of work in it then look at the mass of material. You can bet that the cost per unit of 1 million pullies is a lot less than 1 million AMG brake rotors. How much does that rotor cost ..... not much.
When you consider the mass of an AMG braking rotor and the amount of work in it then look at the mass of material. You can bet that the cost per unit of 1 million pullies is a lot less than 1 million AMG brake rotors. How much does that rotor cost ..... not much.
Many stock parts could have easily been made better and stronger if AMG had more money. Some examples would be having 2 part numbers for rotors, instead of having 1 rotor face the wrong way. There was no plannign in that. It was the dollar that made the difference. Another example is the inlet splitter. I coudl have been made better, but it was cheaper to make the stock brick. Also, they could have used Metal Matrix catalytic converters, which make more power and work better, but cost more. Also, they could have make the Y junction after the rear cats better, but they went cheap and just stuck the pipe over the collector. They could have used Equal length headers instead of the ones we get. They could have put in larger airboxes. They could have used a lighter, more powerful, spiral battery for weight savings. They could have seperated the Engine coolant and Intercooler coolant systems, and added a reservoir in the C32. They could have installed a larger, more efficient radiator. They could have installed an intercooler core that is more efficient then 70% efficient one in the C32. They could design an engine that use 4 or 5 valves per cylinder insted of 3. The list goes on and on.
Miroj, in a bunch of threads you really come off as a ****. I dont know you in real life, so I cannot say what you are really like, but please chill out. Trust me, you dont know everything there is to know, even if you think you do.
