trinitony

You should of convert the all wheel to two wheel.

speedybenz

This topic is how to make a C43 a better track car, not if it is worthy or the best or some other thing. So getting back to the C43 as I stated earlier it does everything a good sports sedan should do. I goes where it is pointed, it stops real well and corners real fast if you spend a little time setting up the suspension. One thing that would help you out is to get a set of adjustable rear swaybar links to add some stiffness to the rear swaybar. I could also make a few delrin outer front swaybars bushings to help get a little more out of that swaybar.

To help out the H&R or Eibach springs add about 1-inch of the bump rubber from the stock shocks to the sport Bilsteins. This will add some spring rate.

You can also make some DIY spring rubbers for the rear by taking the rubber spring height adjusters that normally goes on top of the spring and grinding out the ends so it sits on the spring better and then you zip tie the rubber spacer down on the spring. Make sure to install these in the rear and do it while the car is on a jack. Push them all the way up and to the top of the spring and zip tie them in place. Then go for a drive and see what the car feels like.

But when you do get to where you wnat to do this make sure to get some good sticky summer tires or better yet some R-compounds like Kumho Victoracers. With some fender work (rolling)you can fit 255 in the front and 275's in the rear.

And lastly take as much weight out of the car as you can without making it a beater track refugee. Light wheels no larger than 18-inch diameter. Lighter battery, take out the spare, the felt from under the hood. Only run the minimum amount of wiper fluid, take off the mechanical cooler fan off the water pump pulley. If you can afford it get the Brakeman brake kit for the front. Front calipers are around 8 to 11 pounds lighter per side and as stated before they are very very good. And get some braided brake lines. and some high temp brake fluid. I have removed approx. 260 lbs from my C43/55 and it make a huge difference. Last, last thing get it aligned so that the front end is running close to 2 degrees neg camber and the rear about 1.5 degrees neg camber. With a slight bit of toe-in for the rear and almost no toe-in for the front or zero toe.

And then get to the track and work on being smooth and hitting your brake markers and turn-in points and then work on getting back to the gas early and smoothly.

Jeff

trinitony

^ The mods should make what Jeff said a sticky. All this talk about tracking, I think I'll AX the C this coming season.

PC Valkyrie

If you are a relative newbie at tracking your car, I would suggest that you avoid heavily modifying your C43. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a relatively stock AMG vehicle and tracking it. It will not fall apart. You just have to accept the fact that tires and brake pads are consumable items which will need to replaced much more quickly than before.

As a person who has tracked my cars regularly every summer for the last few years, I can tell you that the biggest "mod" you can do to improve your laptimes/pace is to improve driving skills. There are many things you can learn to optimize your way around a track, and it isn't anything like what you would do on the streets or on a curvy on- or off-ramp to highway. Learning the racing line, braking points, and when to throttle out of corners are the key points.

Take your relatively stock AMG vehicle to the track and see how you do. You will realize that the stock vehicle is not that bad to begin with and you will better appreciate the relative strengths and weaknesses of the vehicle. But I still emphasize the fact that skill and driving style will dictate how fast you can go in your car. Skill/experience will come with practice and time; adapting your driving style to suit the strenghs of your car should come as long as you don't make a ton of mods to completely change the character of your car.

I've tracked both my cars (C55 AMG/135i) many times, and they are both relatively stock. The only mods are a Renntech CF airbox in the C55, along better summer tires and lighter rims on the 135i to reduce unsprung weight. And here is the point: my laptimes have gone with every passing track day, and the only explanation I have is that I'm driving better than before.

I don't know whether I've approached the actual limit of the cars given my driving ability/style. If I feel I have, then I may consider doing modifications to see if I can go even faster. I'll probably get camber plates this year for the 135i to get some increased -ve camber, but I'm going to keep everything else the same so I can see if it actually helps with my laptimes.

I find many people do not really take this approach. They see a faster car at the track, and the first impulse is: "I need to mod my car so I can go faster."

trinitony

^ good point. A couple seasons back at our local pcar AX meets, a kid with his stock M3 (my95) ran circles around the higher performing pcars. You should of seen the look on his dad's face when he got beat by his son. Dad was driving a new 997S; the look on his face was priceless.

speedybenz

PC Valkyrie,

Point is very valid and like PC said and I think I mentioned this before also, just get some brake pads that are suited to the high temps of being on the track and some better tires and go out and drive. You will still go faster than you have ever gone in your life and it makes car prep that much easier and results in more fun at the track.

If you have been to the track several times and are looking for a little more performance then maybe try the things I stated above.

Jeff

trinitony

Hi Jeff, I'm in need of brake pads right about now. And since I'm thinking about axing the old girl, what pads do you recommend?

It be fun showing up at mostly an all pcar event with a sedan.

TIA

RLx02

What does that have to do making n/a power from the 4.3? Why do you even bring up that my headers probably cost as much as your SC set-up? FYI they were 2.5k installed. If your SC set up cost less than that I'm happy for you. The SC set up I'm eyeballing is going to be about 8k installed. Are you trying to say that the 5.4 motor is inferior to the 4.3 motor because yours makes more power (supercharged) than my naturally aspirated motor? If we play that game I can always can always talk about my buddys evo who spent less money on his car and less on mods, and is making 400whp whereas I'm making only 337whp. I knew this and I still bought my car. If i wanted cheap power I would have bought a Mustang. Your point is moot.

Did you read the title of the original post? I wasn't talking about how my car is a better car, I was talking about making power.

You missed the whole point of my post. I'm saying that there's always going to be a wall when you go n/a and I brought up hp numbers and trap speeds from my car because those are what I'm getting and I'm getting close to the wall in getting more power out of my car. I think I can pull another 30hp or so, but its going to be a very expensive 30hp and its not worth it (considering that I can trade my car in for a c63 and get much more hp than mine...stock). So in making more power, that 4.3's power numbers are going to be lower than a 3.2k, 5.4, 5.4k, 6.2, and the list goes on. Thats why I suggested that if he's trying to make big n/a power, he just swap in a different motor.

This thread wasn't titled "what mods are best to make my car handle better around the track"

speedybenz

Back to making more Hp. On my C43 i removed the front fog lights and then fabricated the openings so that race brake ducting will fit on both sides. I riveted the ducting to the front bumper covering. To these ducts I attached 4 inch brake duct tubing which then comes up through the frame area and attaches to the airbox. It really helps to create a ram air entrance for the intake system and I have measured positive pressure in the tubing up to around 80 mph or better(I was by myself, or I would have measured higher speeds) Anyhow with the ram air system in-place I can normally keep my intake air temps down substanially so that they stay around 10 degrees hotter than the ambient air temp. Using my Palm Dyno by Nology I was able to repeatedly pick up 8Hp to 12Hp at 60 to 118 mph at which point the tranny shifts out of 3rd gear and stops the dyno run.

While I never checked it out on a dyno I do know from previous dyno work that running a good 30 wt oil will help you pick up a few Hp from about 1000 rpm below the torque peak on up to redline. And what I mean by a few is 5 to 6 Hp. I have installed an oil pressure gauge to moniter oil pressure and at anyhting above 1500 rpm I am running right at 50 psi of pressure which is good for Hp and engine life.

Also by keeping your tires aligned so that you have close to zero toe in front and minimal toe in the rear you will pick up straight line speed because the tires are not scrubbing across the pavement like they do with the standard alignment figures. Everything helps just a little bit and when you get it all these little things working together properly it can make a pretty bid difference. Driving a friends C43 which was stock and comparing it to mine after the weight reduction, lighter oil, ram air, phenolic spacers at the manifold, and other little tricks showed me that it all adds up to a car that is not only quicker but one that was much better to drive.

Jeff

silence

my point referred to the c43 as a platform- you are correct that NA it is far more limited than the larger motor, until you swap the larger motor in or go with a FI.

I have since added a few more tricks, but my initial sc setup cost quite close to $2500 actually including being installed.

I don't mean to argue with you- just pointing out that the c43 is a better platform regardless.

I wish I could track my car, but for now I have too many other hobbies to make it worthwhile. I will stick to 1-2 trips to the drag strip max per year, since that's easier to manage.

-Drew

PC Valkyrie

What are you referring to? The C43 is a better platform compared to what?

And better at what?.......

silence

better for building a highly customized track car

PC Valkyrie

You didn't really answer my first question, but I think what you're saying is that the W202 C43 AMG platform is better than the W203 C55 AMG platform?.....(I'm guessing this is what you are implying based on your previous responses to RLx02)

Do you care to elaborate? Other than the W202 chassis being lighter, what makes it better than the W203 chassis for building a customized track car?

Is the W201 platform better than the W202 for similar reasons?

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'm genuinely interested in your reasons behind your point of view.

RLx02

I think he meant over the c36.

speedybenz

What I have heard is that the guys who go pretty fast in the W203 chassis can't seem to get enough front camber into the tires so it wears out the outside of the tire pretty fast because the W203 front camber curve isn't as good as the W202 double wishbone front suspension. I know on my C43-W202 I can get enough front camber and the suspension camber curve is aggressive enough not to have an issue with front tire wear.

That would be a pretty big issue to overcome if the W203 suspension camber curve just is not aggressive enough to add the right amount of neg camber to keep the front tire flat in the corners and would put the W202 chassis a little bit ahead of the W203 chassis performance wise.

Jeff

silence

yes, my opinion would be that for a track car (and when I say this there is an implication that you are going into driving as a sport and are willing to spend whatever it takes to get the car dialed and for other gear and travel in over a year or two. I know I've spent at least the cost of a used C55 on bikes and travel for cycling in the last 18 months- I'm talking that sort of commitment on a larger scale because now you are dealing with something more expensive than a bike) that the c43 is a better platform than the w203. It is also a better platform than the c36, but I didn't say that prior, due to the weight and tq- however, any of the later c36s are awful close. I would also have to agree that a w201 would be a better platform yet- however, at some point going to the smallest/cheapest/most easily modified car isn't necessarily best either, or is it?

I may have a different outlook than some- If I commit to building a track car it will be to enter the sport and take it seriously in a short amount of time. I've been an athlete all my life (not in motorsports) and love to push myself.

Someone who doesn't have my drive to win, willingness to work on their own car, or the time to commit that I do might have more fun driving a stockish c55 at the track a few times a year on the weekend. To them, it would be a "better track car" than a c43.



If I ever did do this (read: if my knee gets any worse...) I'd likely be buying an underpowered used track car with an extremely good chassis and never intending to drive it on the street.

RLx02

Purists will always hold onto the past. The honda community had a HUGE FIT when they went from double wishbone to mcpherson strut but unless you're going to do major work on a car, the DC5 integra type r is better than the older, DC2 integra type R. Like the OP said, he wants to keep his c43. People will do what they want. I digress.

AMGC

RLx02- you paid 2.5 thousand dollars for headers with little gain?! that is ridiculous. And also why wouldnt you install them yourself? They are just headers.
201 Cossies have from the factory a manual getrag transmission that is designed for the track and an actual LSD, none of that traction control, ESP, one wheel burnout bull****. All your automatics, faster or not, cant compete with the "fun factor" of a modded 201 that has a true racing pedigree engine and tranny unlike any 202. Boosted, 3.6L swapped, or not.
Whats the point of being on the track when some computer is controlling what gear your in and keeps you from sliding around. Just seems stupid and theres no true challenge to yourself as a driver.

RLx02

1) I paid that much for headers because I can. Think thats expensive? Get a c63 or any newer MB and headers are going to cost you at least 4,000. 25WHP for 1,500 is quite a deal for post 2002 mercedes. If I wanted something to go fast for cheap, I would have bought a mustang.

2) I didn't install my headers because A) I don't have access to proper cutting and welding equipment and B) I work full time, school part time and national guard. I don't have a lot of time to spend on my car. Am I less of a man because I didn't install my own part thats not a direct bolt on?

3) I could care less about having manual vs automatic transmission. I drive in the city often and it has a lot of steep hills and a lot of traffic for any of those here who live near the greater Seattle area. I used to own a manual 5-speed turbo eclipse back in the day. Whats more fun to drive even around in the corners? The AMG. Does it bother you that F1 drivers aren't pushing a clutch down and rowing their own gears? Is the Nissan GTR not fun to drive because it doesn't offer a pure manual transmission?


Why are you trying to flame everyone here on the board who has an AMG that's c36 and newer just because they're automatics? Sure the 190E Cossie was a great rally car back in the day, but that was back in the day. You almost sound like a bimmer purist who say M cars are inherently superior because AMG doesn't offer a "proper" manual gearbox...

Have fun with your 190's. The rest of us aren't losing any sleep because we drive automatics lol

AMGC

C36 made for a great daily, its just I could not see it or any 202 being a serious track car. Just a matter of facts- the transmission just takes way to long to respond, it has no diff, heavy, have yet to see anyone start stripping their 202, kickdown switch takes about 5 minutes, and needs a boost in power to actually be a real "contender" even with the E36 M3s

silence

we are talking about track car potential- I don't think he is saying he doesn't appreciate the newer cars.

I maybe do lose sleep because I don't have a manual? I know I sure would have modified my car differently if it had one.

Sad, that that I'm more likely to autox the "girlfriend's" daily driver than my own toy.


away from the track though... I'll keep my tq, showy stereo system and creature comforts etc., why not?

speedybenz

Well here is my take on the Auto vs. Manual. The AMG Auto wins out because I can shift gears when I want to and it makes it less of a distraction when I want to go really fast. If you look at all the current go fast race cars, (and I bring up race cars because they are only concerned with going fast) they are mostly clutchless manuals and the like. Not having to shift gears frees up your left foot to brake and balance the car in different ways than having to shift and use your left foot to use a clutch.

With my AMG auto I can always put it into whatever gear I want to and it will hold that gear right up to when I bounce it off the rev limiter, just like a manual. If the revs fall to low I shift it down a gear so, I just dont see the advantage of having the manual except for the distraction of clutching and all that mess. Not having to deal with that extra task just makes it easier to go much faster.

If you missmatch the front and rear tire diameters the ESP gets confused a little bit and allows you to get the back end of the car out at a pretty good clip and does not get into the way. It is still possible to spin the car and get into all sorts of trouble.

Please don't take my comments to mean I think the C43 chassis(W202) is the best thing in the world, I just think it does a pretty damn good car and does a great job and with the car properly set-up you can make it go very quickly, but I am sure I could the same thing with a W203 or W204. How fast you go is more dependant on your skill as a driver than the make or track worthyness of the car. A lesser skilled driver in a Ferrari is not going to be faster than a skilled driver in a Volkswagon GTi with sticky tires.

Jeff

PJmak

Honestly, I think you have experienced an unhealthy w202. Maybe thats why you were so releaved when you got rid of it??


I don't think my car is heavy, It definitely doesn't take that long to kick down. You have to keep in mind that these cars have transmissions that get used to your driving. Your car can go from fast and really responsive to lazy and slow in a couple of days.

Plus any good driver will tell you that carrying the speed through corners is what matters. Just like speedybenz pointed out earlier. Not having a lot of power doesn't mean you wont do good laps. 80/90% of drivers you see at track day events don't know how to use their cars to their full potential.



BTW thanks for input everyone and Speedy ill definitely hit you up for some tips and parts once I start doing this. Right now all my money is going into paying my car of. Should have it paid of by summer

AMS Performance

C36 vs. C43

C43 vs. C36


It never ends.....

RLx02

You ignored my questions.