Vogtland springs or H&R springs?
02-12-2010, 08:00 PM
#27
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83 500SEC, 87 300D, 02 C32(x2), 02 C320T (x2), 03 C320T4, 03 C320T, 03 E55, 05 E320CDI, 06 E320CDI
I've had Bilstein Sports and HD's with H&R springs on two of my previous cars with no complaints at all.
AMG_C36: look at the part number for the C43 spring set and the C280 Spring set from H&R... they're the same!
kowalski: I bought them for my C36 as well and just put them on last week. Exactly a 2" drop front and rear. I ordered the C280 set from tire rack and Bil Sports from another site
AMG_C36: look at the part number for the C43 spring set and the C280 Spring set from H&R... they're the same!
kowalski: I bought them for my C36 as well and just put them on last week. Exactly a 2" drop front and rear. I ordered the C280 set from tire rack and Bil Sports from another site
02-12-2010, 08:40 PM
#28
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C43
I've had Bilstein Sports and HD's with H&R springs on two of my previous cars with no complaints at all.
AMG_C36: look at the part number for the C43 spring set and the C280 Spring set from H&R... they're the same!
kowalski: I bought them for my C36 as well and just put them on last week. Exactly a 2" drop front and rear. I ordered the C280 set from tire rack and Bil Sports from another site
AMG_C36: look at the part number for the C43 spring set and the C280 Spring set from H&R... they're the same!
kowalski: I bought them for my C36 as well and just put them on last week. Exactly a 2" drop front and rear. I ordered the C280 set from tire rack and Bil Sports from another site
02-12-2010, 10:55 PM
#29
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83 500SEC, 87 300D, 02 C32(x2), 02 C320T (x2), 03 C320T4, 03 C320T, 03 E55, 05 E320CDI, 06 E320CDI
size doesn't matter- offset does. I have had my 19" carlsson wheels on this car and they didn't rub either. I just threw these on cause I have hung on to them for years but didnt have a car they looked right on. 245 front and 265 rear. 8.5x18 and 9x18. fronts wouldn't clear the upper control arm so a 10mm spacer was used and extended lug bolts.
02-12-2010, 11:21 PM
#30
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size doesn't matter- offset does. I have had my 19" carlsson wheels on this car and they didn't rub either. I just threw these on cause I have hung on to them for years but didnt have a car they looked right on. 245 front and 265 rear. 8.5x18 and 9x18. fronts wouldn't clear the upper control arm so a 10mm spacer was used and extended lug bolts.
I've got 18" Lorinser RS6 with Falken 225/40/18's, and they rub on turns.
But yeah, the fronts ARE running flush to the fender, but i highly doubt that's causing the rub.
02-12-2010, 11:31 PM
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83 500SEC, 87 300D, 02 C32(x2), 02 C320T (x2), 03 C320T4, 03 C320T, 03 E55, 05 E320CDI, 06 E320CDI
Falken. The left side rubbed but thats because the frame is slightly tweaked on that side as well as the underbody crumpled under the new fender that is hanging loose on it, I'm still waiting for it to go to the bodyshop to get all that fixed. The tires were just some I had sitting around from a friends 211. If I stick with them I may put the 245's in back and put a set of 225's up front that I have.
02-13-2010, 04:40 AM
#32
when asking reviews about Vogtlands and HR's then there are people with different opinions!
One is better than the other and vice versa!
If there is a sag issue with HR's then this might be a future problem!
If HR is getting soft over time and sag, this might cause a rubbing issue?
So if Vogts. use more durable steel, then they are highly and more recommended to buy than HR's!
I've red older threads about this discussion Eibach/HR/Vogtland/Koni and so on.
People seem to like them all but it's difficult to find the winner of all springs regarding these 4 brands!
One is better than the other and vice versa!
If there is a sag issue with HR's then this might be a future problem!
If HR is getting soft over time and sag, this might cause a rubbing issue?
So if Vogts. use more durable steel, then they are highly and more recommended to buy than HR's!
I've red older threads about this discussion Eibach/HR/Vogtland/Koni and so on.
People seem to like them all but it's difficult to find the winner of all springs regarding these 4 brands!
02-13-2010, 08:29 AM
#33
Super Member
I have the Vogtlands, but they are still currently sitting in a box on a shelf in the garage! I will probably put them into the car in the spring, when I have my S2000 on the road. Still undecided on that though - my fiancee is going to drive the car this summer, so it may be safer to just let it be for now.
I read a lot of the threads on springs and the comments on the Vogtlands were quite positive. They were a good deal too, instant $25 savings on their website for Canadian buyers, but this was North American Vogtland's website.
I read a lot of the threads on springs and the comments on the Vogtlands were quite positive. They were a good deal too, instant $25 savings on their website for Canadian buyers, but this was North American Vogtland's website.
02-13-2010, 10:59 AM
#34
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C43
Just looked at the part number on the spring...that is for a 1.4/1.3 inch drop. It is kinda odd that it dropped 2 inches. I wonder what the difference is that make the C36 drop more than the C43 with the same springs. OR H&R has the drops measured or marked wrong.
02-13-2010, 04:32 PM
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1995 C 36 AMG; 1992 W124 300E (M103 Ex Mosselman TT KIT) was 320hp @10psi now stock :(
simply yes. You have to unbolt the main control arm from the inside, close to the diff side.
@catbut
the C36 is heavier. Drop could be due to that.
@catbut
the C36 is heavier. Drop could be due to that.
Last edited by jayrasheed; 02-13-2010 at 04:35 PM.
02-14-2010, 02:11 AM
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1999 AMG C43
Hey Kowalski
I live in the area around Eibach and have some friends that can answer that question for us, I am looking to re-spring my 99 C43 as well. I am as interested as everyone else to see what they are made of, I will be driving on crap SoCal roads so I need to know how they will stand up to canyons and the deserted highway between here and Vegas.
I was planning to order the Eibach kit part number # 2545.140 which offers a 1.2 inch drop from factory ride. A friend has them on his 2000 C43 and says they are a bit harsh on the road seams and gaps on long rides, he also has 19" rims wrapped with a rubber band.
I will make an appointment to visit a friend that works there and see what he has to say about the products, Vogtland / Eibach. He steered me in a different direction for springs on my 72 Corvette LS5 , he could have easily persuaded me to buy the Eibach for a higher cost, but knew I would not be happy.
I live in the area around Eibach and have some friends that can answer that question for us, I am looking to re-spring my 99 C43 as well. I am as interested as everyone else to see what they are made of, I will be driving on crap SoCal roads so I need to know how they will stand up to canyons and the deserted highway between here and Vegas.
I was planning to order the Eibach kit part number # 2545.140 which offers a 1.2 inch drop from factory ride. A friend has them on his 2000 C43 and says they are a bit harsh on the road seams and gaps on long rides, he also has 19" rims wrapped with a rubber band.
I will make an appointment to visit a friend that works there and see what he has to say about the products, Vogtland / Eibach. He steered me in a different direction for springs on my 72 Corvette LS5 , he could have easily persuaded me to buy the Eibach for a higher cost, but knew I would not be happy.
02-14-2010, 04:47 AM
#38
Hey Kowalski
I live in the area around Eibach and have some friends that can answer that question for us, I am looking to re-spring my 99 C43 as well. I am as interested as everyone else to see what they are made of, I will be driving on crap SoCal roads so I need to know how they will stand up to canyons and the deserted highway between here and Vegas.
I was planning to order the Eibach kit part number # 2545.140 which offers a 1.2 inch drop from factory ride. A friend has them on his 2000 C43 and says they are a bit harsh on the road seams and gaps on long rides, he also has 19" rims wrapped with a rubber band.
I will make an appointment to visit a friend that works there and see what he has to say about the products, Vogtland / Eibach. He steered me in a different direction for springs on my 72 Corvette LS5 , he could have easily persuaded me to buy the Eibach for a higher cost, but knew I would not be happy.
I live in the area around Eibach and have some friends that can answer that question for us, I am looking to re-spring my 99 C43 as well. I am as interested as everyone else to see what they are made of, I will be driving on crap SoCal roads so I need to know how they will stand up to canyons and the deserted highway between here and Vegas.
I was planning to order the Eibach kit part number # 2545.140 which offers a 1.2 inch drop from factory ride. A friend has them on his 2000 C43 and says they are a bit harsh on the road seams and gaps on long rides, he also has 19" rims wrapped with a rubber band.
I will make an appointment to visit a friend that works there and see what he has to say about the products, Vogtland / Eibach. He steered me in a different direction for springs on my 72 Corvette LS5 , he could have easily persuaded me to buy the Eibach for a higher cost, but knew I would not be happy.
Do you live near the Eibach factory in the US?
That's cool!
Then you can apply for guinea pig experiments for your car through your friend whom works at the Eibach factory.
This must be a great opportunity to test the best set up for our cars?
About the harsh ride on our C43's I think Euro versions of the C43 might be or might not be more harsh, because it's a tad lower than US version?
Your car comes with thicker spring pads, so the car is higher than my stock Euro version.
These thicker pads smoothens out some of the harsh ride?
Correct me if I'm wrong!
I'm thinking about old Cadillacs from the 60's and 70's, they have a suspension like a waterbed!
Getting seasick
when they are pushed to hard!Does US manufactured Eibach springs differ in stiffnes and steel quality compared to Euro version springs?
Thanks
02-14-2010, 11:06 AM
#39
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1999 AMG C43
The US version I have here is much higher than mine back in NL, I must say it does not ride like a cadillac waterbed, but has a quite a bit more body roll than my first one. I live about 15 miles from the factory as well as many other performance manufacturers which I am talking to about custom parts.
I will speak to my friend on Tuesday, it is a bank holiday weekend here so everyone is playing in the desert till tomorrow. I am hoping he will be able to compare specs for me to come up with a solution that we can all use. As far as the stiffness, I will see what is available, another friends Lotus is like a shifter kart, they played with it for a week and found a solution that nobody was offering at the time. If it can make money, they will offer it.
I am looking for a bit stiffer and as low as the euro spec -50mm, which should sit very nice on factory wheel set up without rubbing or having too thin of a spring pad. If they come up with a bespoke C43 solution does anyone else want in? If I have other potential buyers, I have more to offer them and I will leave my car for a week or two to see what they come up with.
I am also speaking with another local custom shop that is one of the largest local manufacturers of custom exhaust parts, I am having a full cat/res delete set up made with an oval micro x pipe for track days, if anyone is interested in this one as well, I can ask about making a few and saving $$$$.
I will speak to my friend on Tuesday, it is a bank holiday weekend here so everyone is playing in the desert till tomorrow. I am hoping he will be able to compare specs for me to come up with a solution that we can all use. As far as the stiffness, I will see what is available, another friends Lotus is like a shifter kart, they played with it for a week and found a solution that nobody was offering at the time. If it can make money, they will offer it.
I am looking for a bit stiffer and as low as the euro spec -50mm, which should sit very nice on factory wheel set up without rubbing or having too thin of a spring pad. If they come up with a bespoke C43 solution does anyone else want in? If I have other potential buyers, I have more to offer them and I will leave my car for a week or two to see what they come up with.
I am also speaking with another local custom shop that is one of the largest local manufacturers of custom exhaust parts, I am having a full cat/res delete set up made with an oval micro x pipe for track days, if anyone is interested in this one as well, I can ask about making a few and saving $$$$.
02-14-2010, 12:26 PM
#40
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C43
I am looking for a bit stiffer and as low as the euro spec -50mm, which should sit very nice on factory wheel set up without rubbing or having too thin of a spring pad. If they come up with a bespoke C43 solution does anyone else want in?
I am also speaking with another local custom shop that is one of the largest local manufacturers of custom exhaust parts, I am having a full cat/res delete set up made with an oval micro x pipe for track days, if anyone is interested in this one as well, I can ask about making a few and saving $$$$.
02-15-2010, 05:36 AM
#42
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1999 AMG C43
Kowalski
My last one was the wolf in wolves clothing, I bought it in Germany from a tuner that ran out of money, so I had him finish it off for an additional 5k euros, it was an autobahn stalker. I had all the badges taken off as well so nobody knew what it was until it was too late.......fun car.
I live in the California mountains now so I use this one as a grocery getter and pretend drift car. I have a new c63 on order, so that will take over as a new daily driver until I can get a real diesel here. I love my c43, I am really just learning about them and tuning this one myself, I have built a few of the older SEC's and an 89 6cyl 350SDL which is still kicking around without any major work and close to 6ook miles and 5th owner.
CatButt- sorry but the exhaust will not come close to CARB, I am hoping to make it so it is just easy to change, I should have mentioned it is only a secondary cat / resonator delete, the primary cats stay in place. My car passed CA smog with only primary cats in place, resonator, muffler and a new set of plugs and wires. It may have just been my lucky day, anyway I have till August to play with it before it is due again.
My last one was the wolf in wolves clothing, I bought it in Germany from a tuner that ran out of money, so I had him finish it off for an additional 5k euros, it was an autobahn stalker. I had all the badges taken off as well so nobody knew what it was until it was too late.......fun car.
I live in the California mountains now so I use this one as a grocery getter and pretend drift car. I have a new c63 on order, so that will take over as a new daily driver until I can get a real diesel here. I love my c43, I am really just learning about them and tuning this one myself, I have built a few of the older SEC's and an 89 6cyl 350SDL which is still kicking around without any major work and close to 6ook miles and 5th owner.
CatButt- sorry but the exhaust will not come close to CARB, I am hoping to make it so it is just easy to change, I should have mentioned it is only a secondary cat / resonator delete, the primary cats stay in place. My car passed CA smog with only primary cats in place, resonator, muffler and a new set of plugs and wires. It may have just been my lucky day, anyway I have till August to play with it before it is due again.
02-15-2010, 05:54 AM
#43
[QUOTE=qwiksolve;3939861]Kowalski
My last one was the wolf in wolves clothing, I bought it in Germany from a tuner that ran out of money, so I had him finish it off for an additional 5k euros, it was an autobahn stalker. I had all the badges taken off as well so nobody knew what it was until it was too late.......fun car.
I live in the California mountains now so I use this one as a grocery getter and pretend drift car. I have a new c63 on order, so that will take over as a new daily driver until I can get a real diesel here. I love my c43, I am really just learning about them and tuning this one myself, I have built a few of the older SEC's and an 89 6cyl 350SDL which is still kicking around without any major work and close to 6ook miles and 5th owner.
Hey qwiksolve this is Kowalski!
Did you buy your C43 from Germany and then import it into the US?
Then your car is more special than regular US versions?
That's good for you if you're going to sell it someday!
Your car is more valuable if you have the extra options that US cars were missing!
Electric rear shade
Fender blinkers
Parktronics aid
and so on!
Who was that tuner you bought your car from?
What was tuned on your car?
Any problems with registrating the car into the US, smog regulations?
Euro c43's have only 2 o2 sensors!
Link your pictures so I can see your car!
Write down all the factory options you have on it that US cars lacks!
I have posted a link before from my car but I'll link it again
Here it is!
http://www.garaget.org/?car=178801
As you can see the pictures of my bumpers I have the parktronic aid!
Do you have them too?
I did some mods to my car:
I put a flathood AMG emblem
Avantgarde grill
US version front blinkers
Original Brabus wheels
MB sport pedals
Brabus stamped doorpins
AMG beltpads
chrome surronding frame around the gear selector
AMG doorsills illuminated
The car doesn't need more gadgets only thing is to lower it now from stock euro springs to HR or Vogtlands, I can't decide what to get?
That's where you come in with inside info from your Eibach friends!
I bet they say buy Eibach since they work there so they are bias to their company brand!
Have a drink on me, I bet where you come from it's smokin' hot now!
Cheers slick!
My last one was the wolf in wolves clothing, I bought it in Germany from a tuner that ran out of money, so I had him finish it off for an additional 5k euros, it was an autobahn stalker. I had all the badges taken off as well so nobody knew what it was until it was too late.......fun car.
I live in the California mountains now so I use this one as a grocery getter and pretend drift car. I have a new c63 on order, so that will take over as a new daily driver until I can get a real diesel here. I love my c43, I am really just learning about them and tuning this one myself, I have built a few of the older SEC's and an 89 6cyl 350SDL which is still kicking around without any major work and close to 6ook miles and 5th owner.
Hey qwiksolve this is Kowalski!
Did you buy your C43 from Germany and then import it into the US?
Then your car is more special than regular US versions?
That's good for you if you're going to sell it someday!
Your car is more valuable if you have the extra options that US cars were missing!
Electric rear shade
Fender blinkers
Parktronics aid
and so on!
Who was that tuner you bought your car from?
What was tuned on your car?
Any problems with registrating the car into the US, smog regulations?
Euro c43's have only 2 o2 sensors!
Link your pictures so I can see your car!
Write down all the factory options you have on it that US cars lacks!
I have posted a link before from my car but I'll link it again
Here it is!
http://www.garaget.org/?car=178801
As you can see the pictures of my bumpers I have the parktronic aid!
Do you have them too?
I did some mods to my car:
I put a flathood AMG emblem
Avantgarde grill
US version front blinkers
Original Brabus wheels
MB sport pedals
Brabus stamped doorpins
AMG beltpads
chrome surronding frame around the gear selector
AMG doorsills illuminated
The car doesn't need more gadgets only thing is to lower it now from stock euro springs to HR or Vogtlands, I can't decide what to get?
That's where you come in with inside info from your Eibach friends!
I bet they say buy Eibach since they work there so they are bias to their company brand!
Have a drink on me, I bet where you come from it's smokin' hot now!
Cheers slick!
02-15-2010, 06:31 AM
#44
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1999 AMG C43
No this one is a US model, I traded that one for a 545 6speed manual and sold that when I moved stateside. The car would have never passed US import, the car was purchased from Wolf Schutte of Black Forest Benz in Freiberg, it was his personal car, he did some head mods, polished the intake runners, custom exhaust (full duals came out oval tips from side skirt under rear drivers door) AMG 18' mono, blacked out center, custom injectors, unknown ecu mods, taller ring and pinion unknown ratio, N0s (never used it bottle was empty could not get it filled in NL, I can buy a kilo of hashish but not N0s).
I found out why the company went under shortly after delivery, they lacked a quality machine shop and fitment was not always best. I wrenched it for a year and got all the leaks to stop on their custom hard hoses and custom vacuum manifolds, the exhaust never stopped leaking until it was replaced by the new owner with a factory one. I will never buy from an amateur tuner again! My current ride came from a college professor that maintained it with the local benz dealer and only drove it on long interstate trips so it was all highway miles, still had all original equipment including tires and brakes. Well kept, I picked it up for a play car in Florida with 99,925 miles on it and then drove it out to California. She has been a great car, now she is broken in and has a new transmission.
The cars are fairly similar but lots of little gadgets missing like the adj lights, rear shade, real first aid kit with Bayer Aspirin. The car is a bit softer and slower to rev than the Euro model (even the untuned versions).
Well not exactly smoking hot, we have snow on the mountains and daytime is about 31 c but nightime it drops to about 5 c or so.
I found out why the company went under shortly after delivery, they lacked a quality machine shop and fitment was not always best. I wrenched it for a year and got all the leaks to stop on their custom hard hoses and custom vacuum manifolds, the exhaust never stopped leaking until it was replaced by the new owner with a factory one. I will never buy from an amateur tuner again! My current ride came from a college professor that maintained it with the local benz dealer and only drove it on long interstate trips so it was all highway miles, still had all original equipment including tires and brakes. Well kept, I picked it up for a play car in Florida with 99,925 miles on it and then drove it out to California. She has been a great car, now she is broken in and has a new transmission.
The cars are fairly similar but lots of little gadgets missing like the adj lights, rear shade, real first aid kit with Bayer Aspirin. The car is a bit softer and slower to rev than the Euro model (even the untuned versions).
Well not exactly smoking hot, we have snow on the mountains and daytime is about 31 c but nightime it drops to about 5 c or so.
02-15-2010, 06:40 AM
#45
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1999 AMG C43
Nice Car! I see you have all the toys on it as well, she looks stunning in sliver, very clean looking. I will get some photos of both of them up, I have to wash Kareena she is a dirty girl right now, we went drifting in a bit of mud today, I live on a dirt road. Also missing is the AMG fire extinguishers, we don't have them here nor the roadside kits. We get a bunch of Benz junk not the AMG stuff, no AMG portfolio, etc etc. It is still pretty much the same car....
02-15-2010, 06:53 AM
#46
No this one is a US model, I traded that one for a 545 6speed manual and sold that when I moved stateside. The car would have never passed US import, the car was purchased from Wolf Schutte of Black Forest Benz in Freiberg, it was his personal car, he did some head mods, polished the intake runners, custom exhaust (full duals came out oval tips from side skirt under rear drivers door) AMG 18' mono, blacked out center, custom injectors, unknown ecu mods, taller ring and pinion unknown ratio, N0s (never used it bottle was empty could not get it filled in NL, I can buy a kilo of hashish but not N0s).
I found out why the company went under shortly after delivery, they lacked a quality machine shop and fitment was not always best. I wrenched it for a year and got all the leaks to stop on their custom hard hoses and custom vacuum manifolds, the exhaust never stopped leaking until it was replaced by the new owner with a factory one. I will never buy from an amateur tuner again! My current ride came from a college professor that maintained it with the local benz dealer and only drove it on long interstate trips so it was all highway miles, still had all original equipment including tires and brakes. Well kept, I picked it up for a play car in Florida with 99,925 miles on it and then drove it out to California. She has been a great car, now she is broken in and has a new transmission.
The cars are fairly similar but lots of little gadgets missing like the adj lights, rear shade, real first aid kit with Bayer Aspirin. The car is a bit softer and slower to rev than the Euro model (even the untuned versions).
Well not exactly smoking hot, we have snow on the mountains and daytime is about 31 c but nightime it drops to about 5 c or so.
I found out why the company went under shortly after delivery, they lacked a quality machine shop and fitment was not always best. I wrenched it for a year and got all the leaks to stop on their custom hard hoses and custom vacuum manifolds, the exhaust never stopped leaking until it was replaced by the new owner with a factory one. I will never buy from an amateur tuner again! My current ride came from a college professor that maintained it with the local benz dealer and only drove it on long interstate trips so it was all highway miles, still had all original equipment including tires and brakes. Well kept, I picked it up for a play car in Florida with 99,925 miles on it and then drove it out to California. She has been a great car, now she is broken in and has a new transmission.
The cars are fairly similar but lots of little gadgets missing like the adj lights, rear shade, real first aid kit with Bayer Aspirin. The car is a bit softer and slower to rev than the Euro model (even the untuned versions).
Well not exactly smoking hot, we have snow on the mountains and daytime is about 31 c but nightime it drops to about 5 c or so.
So you're from Holland originally?
Pass da dutchie!
Go dutch?
Where did I hear those phrases
Just kidding!
So your German bought c43 had some unwelcome problems after you bought it?
This dude that tuned the car, he was an amateur?
I bet the exhaust pipes sticking out of the cars rear drivers door must have been cool looks!
Like old skool american muscle cars!
So you have experianced the transmission problems as the other forum mebers?
That's scheize (crap)!
Having 31 degrees C in California is way better than the white powder outside my window!
And I am not talking about smack!
Yeah Netherlands is famous for lots of things!
Swedish dude Clark Olofsson aka Daniel Demyunuk or something like that!
Swedens/NL most notorious drug dealer!
What other things about NL -Red light districts!
Helen Duval famous Dutch actress working her wholes to the max!
Yeah Spykercars is on the news in my city all the time now!
02-15-2010, 07:05 AM
#47
Nice Car! I see you have all the toys on it as well, she looks stunning in sliver, very clean looking. I will get some photos of both of them up, I have to wash Kareena she is a dirty girl right now, we went drifting in a bit of mud today, I live on a dirt road. Also missing is the AMG fire extinguishers, we don't have them here nor the roadside kits. We get a bunch of Benz junk not the AMG stuff, no AMG portfolio, etc etc. It is still pretty much the same car....
Those gadgets would have made my car look phat!
To heavy!
The stuff missing on my car are:
Navigation
No fire extinguisher
garage door openers on sunvisor
rear selflevelling shocks
electric rear sun shade
full alarm system with cabin alarm/ I only have the tow alarm
engine heater for winter days
front seat back's pockets pouch for stuff!
electric steering wheel adjustmen/ I only have manual adjusting
No panic alarm button on remote control, only gadget on US cars
No dome light under the inner door panel, only a US gadget
No panic trunk opener if you get kidnapped and thrown in the trunk only US gadget!
I don't know what else is different between US C43 and Euro C43?
besides the huge gap in those wheelaches you have on stock US cars!
02-19-2010, 04:05 AM
#48
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1999 AMG C43
I worked my c43 into an appointment with Eibach, I think this one will cost a bit of $$$ even with friends. Anyway I will have an appointment for March 8th and will see where this takes us. I am hoping we can find the right combo without having to go to crazy shocks.
02-19-2010, 09:44 AM
#49
Your car will be the perfect lab rat!
One step for c43 owners, huge step for c43!
Good luck don't forget to report!
