mickey13

so i've stayed true to M1 but it looks like fcp has dropped it . They are carrying Rowe and LM. I know a lot of shops swear by LM.

what is everyone using

Sulaco

Are they your only source for getting M1? I buy it on Amazon for $25 per 5 qt jug.

mickey13

no, I can get it local, I used to buy it at Walmart pretty cheap, maybe less than 25 but... FCP does lifetime returns lol. Last oil change was free minus shipping charge back so like 7 bucks I think.

mickey13

I know some oil guys will eventually chime in but here is what I poached from another board:

"Vehicles with the Mercedes Maintenance System starting with MY2005 can use 229.5 or 229.51 oils.

Vehicles with the Flexible Service System FSS from MY1998-2004 can use 229.5, 229.51 or 229.3 oils.

229.5 and 229.51 engine oils must be used with fleece oil filter when used with the Mercedes Maintenance System (MY2005+) in M112, M113, M272 and M273 engines. With FSS paper filters are fine.

MB sheet 229.1 approved oils
for passenger cars with gas and diesel engines, used to be minimum spec for latest (98+) engines, high detergent, dispersant spec suitable for normal drain intervals. Based on ACEA A3, B3. Note 229.1 oils are not recommended for MB's latest (2002+) 4 valve
gas M271, M275, M285 and diesel OM646, OM647, OM648 engines.

MB sheet 229.3 approved oils
for passenger cars with gas and diesel engines with extended drain interval indicator FSS up to 20,000 km, or 40,000 km - 25,000 mi, current minimum spec for 1998+ MB engines, min. 1.0% fuel saving compared to 229.1, based on ACEA A3 B4. For gas engine of the M100 series, gas engines of the M200 series and diesel engines of the OM600 series (not models with Euro 4 diesel particle filters).

MB sheet 229.31 approved oils; LA "low ash" Oils
Mercedes pioneered this new spec for passenger cars with diesel engines with EURO 4 or Bluetec exhaust particle filters, e.g. W211 E200 CDI, E220 CDI. The spec was introduced 7/2003. They are called LA "low ash" or "low SAPS" oils, low on sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulphur to limit exhaust particle filter pollution. In 2004 the ACEA introduced the new C3 spec (mid SAPS, normal viscosity) based on it. Change intervals extend to 15,000 km.

MB sheet 229.5 approved oils; "MB Longlife Service Oils"
for passenger cars with gas and diesel engines with extended drain intervals beyond 229.3 oils, to 30,000 km, min 1.8% fuel saving, first oils introduced summer 2002. ACEA A3 B4. For gas engines of the M100 series, gas engines of the M200 series and diesel engines of the OM600 series (not models with Euro 4 diesel particle filters).
229.5 engine oils must be used with fleece oil filter designed for use with 229.5 engine oils.

MB sheet 229.51 approved oils; low ash long life
Mercedes pioneered this new spec for passenger cars with diesel engines with EURO 4 or Bluetec exhaust particle filters and longer service life than the 229.31 oils. The spec was introduced in 2005. Change intervals increased to 20,000 kilometers. Based on ACEA A3 B4 and C3."


Here is the LM spec sheet:

Description Synthoil Energy SAE 0W-40 is a modern, fully synthetic, low friction motor oil for all season use. The combination of unconventional synthetic-based oils using advanced additive technology ensures low viscosity and high shear stability for the motor oil and reliably prevents the formation of deposits, reducing frictional loss in the engine and providing the optimal protection from wear. Synthoil Energy SAE 0W-40 is recommended for gasoline and Diesel engines, including engines with turbochargers and catalytic converters. Properties - rapid oil delivery at low temperatures - outstanding engine cleanliness - high lubrication reliability - high wear resistance - highest fuel economy - low evaporation loss - tested for turbochargers and catalytic converters - outstanding high temperature stability - optimum oil pressure under all operating conditions

Specifications and approvals: ACEA A3 ∙ ACEA B4 ∙ API SM ∙ API CF

LIQUI MOLY also recommends this product for vehicles or assemblies for which the following specifications or original part numbers are required: BMW Longlife-98 ∙ Ford WSS-M2C 937-A ∙ MB 229.3 ∙ Porsche A40 ∙ VW 502 00 ∙ VW 505 00

Technical data
SAE class (engine oils) 0W-40 SAE J300
Density at 15 °C 0,845 g/cm³ DIN 51757
Viscosity at 40 °C 81,0 mm²/s ASTM D 7042-04
Viscosity at 100 °C 14,0 mm²/s ASTM D 7042-04
Viscosity at -40°C (MRV) < 60000 mPas ASTM D4684
Viscosity at -35°C (CCS) = 3,5 mPas ASTM D5481

Technical data
Pour point -48 °C DIN ISO 3016
Evaporation loss (Noack) 10,0 % CEC-L-40-A-93
Flash point 230 °C DIN ISO 2592
Total base number 10,5 mg KOH/g DIN ISO 3771
Sulfate ash 1,0 - 1,6 g/100g DIN 51575
Color number (ASTM) L3,5 DIN ISO 2049

Here is the M1 Spec sheet

Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 synthetic motor oil meets or exceeds the requirements of:

• API SN, SM, SL, SJ
• ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4

Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 has the following builder approvals:

• MB-Approval 229.3
• MB-Approval 229.5
• VW 502 00/505 00
• PORSCHE A40

According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is of the following quality:

• API CF
• VW 503 01

Technical details

Viscosity, cSt (ASTM D445)
@ 40ºC70.8
@ 100ºC12.9
Viscosity Index 186
MRV at -40ºC, cP (ASTM D4684)21,600
HTHS Viscosity, mPa•s @ 150ºC (ASTM D4683) 3.6
Total Base Number (ASTM D2896)12.6
Sulfated Ash, wt% (ASTM D874)1.34
Phosphorous, wt% (ASTM D4981)0.1
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92)226
Density @ 15.6ºC, g/ml (ASTM D4052)0.8456

Going a step further and looking at Rowe:

Description HIGHTEC SYNTH RS SAE 0W-40 is a high-performance engine oil with an optimal viscosity grade produced using fully synthetic poly-alpha-olefins (PAO). Its high level of performance is achieved through the interaction of these fully synthetic base oils with their naturally high viscosity index (VI) and the advanced additives. Application HIGHTEC SYNTH RS SAE 0W-40 exhibits an excellent cold-start behaviour and fast lubrication at the lowest temperatures. At the same time, it provides a stable lubricating film for safe wear protection, even with hot oil and under excessive loads. HIGHTEC SYNTH RS SAE 0W-40 is especially recommended for a sporty driving style and when the vehicle is driven at full power, as well as under severe weather conditions.

The quality of this product is equivalent to EU regulations ACEA A3/B4 API SN BMW Longlife-01 MB 229.5 Porsche A40 PSA B71 2296 VW 502 00/505 00

Additionally this product is recommended when the following filling instructions are required API CF Fiat 9.55535-M2/N2/Z2

Benefits Fuel economy due to low-viscosity characteristics Safe cold start and quick lubrication of the engine, even at low temperatures Safer year-round operation due to outstanding viscosity-temperature behaviour and high shear stability Stable lubricating film, even with hot oil and under excessive loads, and the best wear protection The fully synthetic PAO base oils and the most advanced additives provide the highest oxidation stability Eminently suitable for turbocharged engines Prevention of adhesion, lacquering and coking of cylinders, pistons, valves and turbochargers in a reliable manner First-class economy grade for multi-functional use in diesel and Otto engines from different manufacturers Reliable protection against ‘black sludge’ Low oil consumption due to a very low evaporation loss Miscible and compatible with conventional and synthetic engine oils. However, in order to exploit the full product benefits of HIGHTEC SYNTH RS SAE 0W-40, a complete oil change is recommended.

Typical characteristics Property Method Unit Value
Density at 15 °C ASTM D-7042 g/ml 0,854
Kinematic viscosity KV 40 ASTM D-7042 mm²/s 81,7
Kinematic viscosity KV 100 ASTM D-7042 mm²/s 14,2
Viscosity index ASTM D-7042 - 180
Flash point ASTM D-92 / DIN EN ISO 2592 °C 242
Pour point ASTM D-97 / DIN EN ISO 3016 °C -44
CCS ASTM D-5293 cP @ °C 5100 @ -35
Total base number DIN 51639-1 mgKOH/g 10,5

mickey13

OK, so I've found the official MB list. Looks like LM and Rowe are approved but not in the 0w40 weight. There also looks like some other interesting choices on the list.

https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/229.5_en.html

mickey13

Interesting analysis I ripped off a Porsche forum board.

May not be that much of a difference, let's compare cold numbers vs. Motul 8100.

Mobil-1 0W40
Density at 15º C: 0.85
Viscosity at 40º C: 78.3
Viscosity at 100°C: 14
Pour point: ?

Motul 5W40
Density at 15°C: 0.854
Viscosity at 40°C: 83.1 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C: 14.0 mm²/s
Pour point: -39 °C

Lubro Moly 5W40
Density at 15º C: 0.85
Viscosity at 40º C: 86
Viscosity at 100°C: 14.4
Pour point: -45 °C

Lubro Moly 10W60 (ref)
Density at 15º C: 0.86
Viscosity at 40º C: 163
Viscosity at 100°C: 23
Pour point: -35 °C

Mobil-1 doesn't state their pour point, the only difference between 0W and 5W is for cold cranking (-30 vs. -25)... but at 15°C (cold start for most), they are identical as you see above, and the other oils are closer to the race oil (the 10W60) and basically better for high temp IMO.

At the end of the day, the difference between all of these great oils are very small, as long as one change their oil frequently enough, and I just saw absolutely NO reason to pay double for Mobil-1 (I know the price difference in US is not as much).

mickey13

OK so here is where I am on this oil issue, I've decided that M1 is a great oil, but is not the only oil worthy of use. Ferrari uses Shell etc etc, so it is pretty clear that other companies are making great products as well.

My dilemma is that I like to purchase from FCP Euro (I am not affiliated with them in any way). I like to purchase from them because it is a lifetime warranty, my biggest pet peeve is that shipping is sometimes slow, but I'd expect that with any online company and yes you can upgrade shipping if you want (I know their rep will probably read this and mention there is upgraded shipping to be fair I've mentioned it now). They were carrying M1, and would credit you for returning oil. Life was great, free oil and filter for cost of shipping. I just returned 16 quarts of oil and was fully credited, went to restock and realized M1 was off the menu. After a bit of research and thought, I believed my options were LM, Rowe, Motul, and Pentosin.

Well I now see they carry genuine MB oil for $9,95/quart. So I will be using this stuff from now on. Here is the link to buy Genuine MB 5w40 Does anyone have the spec sheet for this part? A0009898301USB6

Here is a review of the product (Although he doesn't state what weight he was previously using):


W211 E55 AMG I always change my oil every 5-6k miles. With mobil 1 I've always had to add a quart of every 2k miles. I then switched to Liqui Moly and only needed to add a quart of oil after 3500-4k miles. I'm now almost 6k miles on this 5w40 Mercedes brand oil and I haven't had to add any oil what so ever. It made my engine quieter and have a smoother idle. I highly recommend using this oil vs the rest. This is for my 2004 E55 AMG.

KJI3jflarryfe93

hey Mr. Spillane as long as you go with 0w40 synthetico olio it doesn't matter what brand you get.<br />Castrolio - Mobilio - Aralio - Motulio they are all grrrreat oils.<br />peepol are comfortable with the same oil brand engine had from the very first beginning and got schtück with it as a security blanket.

mickey13

hehe. kowizaski in dah merzedez

why do you say 0w40, what is wrong with 5w40?

see if you can help me figure out the real origin of these 2 oils, see the back label for country of manufacture. I am looking at the list of approved 229.5 for cross reference to figure it out unless you think Mercedes opened a refinery???

mickey13

9 oils on the 229.5 list that are made in belgium. Out of those 9, only 3 are 0w40 weight. 1 is made by chevron, but actually they don't make a 0w40, so its possible that it is a mistake or that particular oil is pulled from market (unlikely). The other 2 oils seem to actually be identical oils, both made by wolf oil but branded differently. Attached are the product data sheets for both. Do you think this wolf oil is the high-performance AMG oil?

standard mb labeled oil is probably m1 5w40 (made in usa)

KJI3jflarryfe93

only thing MB had improved is the color of the bottle changing from grey to black and put a new high performance sticker.
it's all about marketing.

if you hear ticker noise you can try a thicker olio Mob1 ExTra Vergine

btw.
it's spelled Mezedez

mickey13

I still cant find the product data sheets for the MB/AMG lubes.

mickey13

I'm still looking for product data sheet for the genuine MB and AMG spec oils. I believe that genuine MB oil is M1 5w40 (made is USA) and I also believe that AMG spec oil is Castrol A3/B4 0w40 (made in Germany now made in Belgium - not the Castrol made in USA).

If anyone has those spec sheets, I would be very appreciative.

DRBC43AMG

Mickey13 it looks like you are preparing a PhD on oil types. Interesting reading...

cm60k

Always like to use "MB/genuine 5-W40" or "Castrol Edge/TI 10-W60"..

-;ZAYED;-

KJI3jflarryfe93

oil viscosity depends on different climates and countries.
what's good in your country might not be ideal somewhere else.

cold climates would benefit from thinner oil

mickey13

I don't want to come off as really knowledgeable on this stuff because there are some guys out there that really know their stuff when it comes to engine oil. I have learned a lot about it over the past few days. A very very simplified explanation of the different oils is that there are 5 different grades. Level 4 is considered synthetic but some level 3 oils, like mobile 1, demonstrate enough level 4 properties (or have level 4 type additives) that it can be called fully synthetic. Level 5 is considered the ultimate protection, those oils have ester properties which bond to metals on a molecular level providing maximum protection. Aside from the oil itself, there are additive packages, those packages normally consist of either a detergent package or a lubrication package. Sometimes they try to balance them out, but the detergent package will normally "clean" off the lubrication package. The oils are created in really what is described as a molecular structure for best performance. It's really really really an interesting subject and I am trying to be really conservative with my explanation just in case I'm not 100% correct.

I believe that the German Castrol (now made in Belgium??) which I'm guessing is the AMG spec has some ester properties and that's why it is considered superior to M1, also possibly branded as genuine MB. It's true that different grades are also more efficient in different climate zones, however, a spec like 10w60 could even be a great grade in colder climates if the car has a heater block or is kept in a heated garage. 0wxx and 5wxx are negligible for cold starts, but sure you will want thin oil for cold starts.

I think one of the most valuable things I learned is that oil was initially used as a straight weight, being changed in the summer and winter for the best grade at the time, but now oils come in multigrades. And I've got an understanding of what the weight designation actually means, for instance 0w40 does not change from a 0 weight to a 40 weight when heat or cold is applied, but rather it is a thin oil 0 weight, that retains the protection properties of a 40 weight. The other thing I've learned about is shearing, but I'll leave that definition up to you if you are interested in looking it up.

I might skip the genuine MB and go with a bit of race oil (full LVL 5 - not on the MB229.5 list - the bottle is actually funny - it says: OEM approvals: surpasses all manufacturer's specifications LOL) , very curious if it will make a difference. I just put the m1 in, so I will run it out a bit - going to order it now but guessing it will be at least a few months before I put it in. Keep you guys posted.

mickey13

haven't pulled the trigger on the oil yet. wanted to order some for the wife's car as well and did some research on the Rowe full synthetic stuff they sell and it turns out to be a highly regarded oil, possibly with a mixed ester base so a high level 4 or a street usable level 5. just FYI got most of the Rowe info from German language oil forums.

ACC2

Mickey13, you're kidding about returning used oil, right?

mickey13

nope. free oil for life. just the cost of returning the oil.

ACC2

I just googled their policy on returning used oil for a refund and found this post from them on reddit. It must be a sad day when you're having to return used oil to keep the MB running.

fcpeuro
We actually don’t rely on people not using it, we rely on people being honest, and we spend a lot of time protecting the warranty for our customers from people that try to abuse it. We’ve offered it for over 5 years and we continue to grow, don’t worry, we’re not going anywhere.

mickey13

do you mean your car wont run because you dont have any oil for it?