Intake system?
#77
Because with EC you run that every day all day safely opposed to jb4 where that is a certain map only and the tuning is not that involved with a jb4 like a real ecu tune. But if you are ok with not running 11.x consistently then the jb4 is the best option for you. It is an amazing product especially for 4xx bucks.
FYI i will not turn this thread to an EC vs JB4 thread but i ran my friends c43 coupe with PE exhaust i am non PE exhaust ( I am coupe as well) on his map 6 or 7 with race gas (ms109) from 40-120 and i took him by a car and a half to two cars if we kept going higher. Maybe top end is better with a full tune? Idk, just sharing my real world results.
FYI i will not turn this thread to an EC vs JB4 thread but i ran my friends c43 coupe with PE exhaust i am non PE exhaust ( I am coupe as well) on his map 6 or 7 with race gas (ms109) from 40-120 and i took him by a car and a half to two cars if we kept going higher. Maybe top end is better with a full tune? Idk, just sharing my real world results.
In terms of raw performance we're always working on mapping adjustments via free firmware updates and you'll find the maps included quite competitive with what the flash tuners offer. What the JB4 can't do right now is say remove the speed limiter, add exhaust burbles, which can only be done via flash tuning. So that's the trade off. Fortunately, the JB4 is also fully compatible with flash maps. Giving you not only a great logging tool, but boost by gear on the fly for improved traction on RWD vehicles, the ability to change power levels on the fly for higher octane fuels, E85 support, etc, without having to risk reflashing the car, etc.
And of course the JB4 can be easily installed and removed at home, without a trace, and even resold later if you move on to another platform.
The following 5 users liked this post by Jon@BMS:
agchenry (10-23-2018),
C43Ayemgee (10-23-2018),
DameMD (10-23-2018),
munis (10-24-2018),
RichardCranium3 (10-23-2018)
#80
Have a few questions for you regarding my jb4, as I cant reach over 15 psi on e30 fuel. Map 2, 6 or 7.
super excited for the intakes, always a quality product from BMS... cant wait! I emailed Terry with all my logs and hope to hear back soon
#81
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 284
From: Toronto, ON
2021 Mercedes C63s AMG Coupe
Because with EC you run that every day all day safely opposed to jb4 where that is a certain map only and the tuning is not that involved with a jb4 like a real ecu tune. But if you are ok with not running 11.x consistently then the jb4 is the best option for you. It is an amazing product especially for 4xx bucks.
FYI i will not turn this thread to an EC vs JB4 thread but i ran my friends c43 coupe with PE exhaust i am non PE exhaust ( I am coupe as well) on his map 6 or 7 with race gas (ms109) from 40-120 and i took him by a car and a half to two cars if we kept going higher. Maybe top end is better with a full tune? Idk, just sharing my real world results.
FYI i will not turn this thread to an EC vs JB4 thread but i ran my friends c43 coupe with PE exhaust i am non PE exhaust ( I am coupe as well) on his map 6 or 7 with race gas (ms109) from 40-120 and i took him by a car and a half to two cars if we kept going higher. Maybe top end is better with a full tune? Idk, just sharing my real world results.
Also about the tuning with a JB4 for not being more involved, it is involved if you want to be involved in it. The user cannot adjust anything for his/her car specifically with a full tune. A full tune is usually developed for the entire platform, not each individual car unless you pay for custom tune. My map 6 is completely tailored for my boost curve. Also about it being safe, I can go back to stock any time I want with the JB4. Go back to having full performance again in just seconds. In Terms of overall safety, the JB4 is still significantly safer than any full tune. It is not like the old days anymore where AFR with a piggyback is off the charts. Like Terry said, the JB4 works based on the stock ECU tables, which for our car has fuelling values from factory for pretty high boost numbers, so the AFR stays in a very safe zone no matter what you do. Also all the factory torque limiters are completely untouched, which is far from the case for a full tune. The limiters for full tunes have now been adjusted to completely unknown territories. In terms of relative safety, it is not even a competition.
#82
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 284
From: Toronto, ON
2021 Mercedes C63s AMG Coupe
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#83
#84
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 400
Likes: 44
From: North East
2017 AMG C43, AWE Touring, BMC Air Filters- 2015 BMW X3 3.5i (JB1 Equipped)
#86
I do not want to turn this into a vs thread either, but I do not agree about the top end. If your friend was running a map 6 and he did not know what he was doing, then it is quite easy to muck it up. Map 6 is about really fine tuning the curve to your car only, a proper one would do wonders even at the top end. To the point, my trap speed of 121mph, is still to do this day unmatched by any stage 2 car even. Just saying.
Also about the tuning with a JB4 for not being more involved, it is involved if you want to be involved in it. The user cannot adjust anything for his/her car specifically with a full tune. A full tune is usually developed for the entire platform, not each individual car unless you pay for custom tune. My map 6 is completely tailored for my boost curve. Also about it being safe, I can go back to stock any time I want with the JB4. Go back to having full performance again in just seconds. In Terms of overall safety, the JB4 is still significantly safer than any full tune. It is not like the old days anymore where AFR with a piggyback is off the charts. Like Terry said, the JB4 works based on the stock ECU tables, which for our car has fuelling values from factory for pretty high boost numbers, so the AFR stays in a very safe zone no matter what you do. Also all the factory torque limiters are completely untouched, which is far from the case for a full tune. The limiters for full tunes have now been adjusted to completely unknown territories. In terms of relative safety, it is not even a competition.
Also about the tuning with a JB4 for not being more involved, it is involved if you want to be involved in it. The user cannot adjust anything for his/her car specifically with a full tune. A full tune is usually developed for the entire platform, not each individual car unless you pay for custom tune. My map 6 is completely tailored for my boost curve. Also about it being safe, I can go back to stock any time I want with the JB4. Go back to having full performance again in just seconds. In Terms of overall safety, the JB4 is still significantly safer than any full tune. It is not like the old days anymore where AFR with a piggyback is off the charts. Like Terry said, the JB4 works based on the stock ECU tables, which for our car has fuelling values from factory for pretty high boost numbers, so the AFR stays in a very safe zone no matter what you do. Also all the factory torque limiters are completely untouched, which is far from the case for a full tune. The limiters for full tunes have now been adjusted to completely unknown territories. In terms of relative safety, it is not even a competition.
Yes your trap is dope man, cannot argue with that till i can get my car back to the track and see what it does or Dragy.
As for my friend, i am sure he knows how to use his jb4 and if not im sure the MS109 helped him out as well as i was just on 93. But as mentioned and i agree, every car is different and reacts differently. This is all that i will say in regards to this as this thread is about the great product of the BMS intakes which i cannot wait to get my hands on . Thanks to BMS for taking an interest for us 43 guys.
#87
Please note that this is what i mentioned before. I am not referring to off the shelf tunes, i am talking about getting your car dyno tuned from any series of tuner. I personally do not see how you can get better than that as the car is dynoed in your condition, with the same gas you use every day, with the same consistent elevation. Granted i am sure you can log everything with the JB4 and send it over to Terry. And yes i agree you can go back to stock at anytime and performance gains at anytime which is a great feature. For me, ill just put the car in C mode if i am not trying to use the cars power and then straight to S+ when i want the power, same concept as going from one map to another from my perspective as i am not pushing the car or even boosting. As far as the torque limiters are concerned some are off and some on. I spoke to EC about this already, i cannot for other tuning companies.
Yes your trap is dope man, cannot argue with that till i can get my car back to the track and see what it does or Dragy.
As for my friend, i am sure he knows how to use his jb4 and if not im sure the MS109 helped him out as well as i was just on 93. But as mentioned and i agree, every car is different and reacts differently. This is all that i will say in regards to this as this thread is about the great product of the BMS intakes which i cannot wait to get my hands on . Thanks to BMS for taking an interest for us 43 guys.
Yes your trap is dope man, cannot argue with that till i can get my car back to the track and see what it does or Dragy.
As for my friend, i am sure he knows how to use his jb4 and if not im sure the MS109 helped him out as well as i was just on 93. But as mentioned and i agree, every car is different and reacts differently. This is all that i will say in regards to this as this thread is about the great product of the BMS intakes which i cannot wait to get my hands on . Thanks to BMS for taking an interest for us 43 guys.
#88
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 284
From: Toronto, ON
2021 Mercedes C63s AMG Coupe
I am yet to see any customer churn out similar numbers on track. But you will find 11.6 EC tuned cars on dragy. Several JB4 users have trapped higher though, just something to keep in mind.
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#89
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 400
Likes: 44
From: North East
2017 AMG C43, AWE Touring, BMC Air Filters- 2015 BMW X3 3.5i (JB1 Equipped)
#90
In terms of safety one thing to keep in mind is the JB4 is confined by what it can adjust as it's working off all the factory mapped tables. So while there are some limits on what we can do performance wise, those limits also make it a much safer way to tune. There is a LOT more that can go wrong with flash mapping especially with aggressive maps. And with flash mapping there is no guarantee the factory safety systems have not been compromised. In addition the JB4 offers it's own passive safety systems that allow it to dynamically reduce power if AFR is too lean, too much timing pulled due to knock, boost is too high, fuel trims going too high, etc, in a way that is both more aggressive and more adjustable than what the ECU can do on it's own.
In terms of raw performance we're always working on mapping adjustments via free firmware updates and you'll find the maps included quite competitive with what the flash tuners offer. What the JB4 can't do right now is say remove the speed limiter, add exhaust burbles, which can only be done via flash tuning. So that's the trade off. Fortunately, the JB4 is also fully compatible with flash maps. Giving you not only a great logging tool, but boost by gear on the fly for improved traction on RWD vehicles, the ability to change power levels on the fly for higher octane fuels, E85 support, etc, without having to risk reflashing the car, etc.
And of course the JB4 can be easily installed and removed at home, without a trace, and even resold later if you move on to another platform.
In terms of raw performance we're always working on mapping adjustments via free firmware updates and you'll find the maps included quite competitive with what the flash tuners offer. What the JB4 can't do right now is say remove the speed limiter, add exhaust burbles, which can only be done via flash tuning. So that's the trade off. Fortunately, the JB4 is also fully compatible with flash maps. Giving you not only a great logging tool, but boost by gear on the fly for improved traction on RWD vehicles, the ability to change power levels on the fly for higher octane fuels, E85 support, etc, without having to risk reflashing the car, etc.
And of course the JB4 can be easily installed and removed at home, without a trace, and even resold later if you move on to another platform.
The JB4 is NOT inherently safer than a flash tune, and it does NOT have the same capabilities of a flash tune. The JB4 is most assuredly not safer for the transmission than a proper flash tune. A flash tune that has poorly written tables and sets bad load point targets for what it modifies, yes, is not as safe as the JB4. But to say that the JB4 is safer than a properly setup flash is just downright false. This claim has been beat to death on E**Post and elsewhere going back over seven years. The JB4 has a major flaw by nature of it being a piggy: it has absolutely no direct control over timing, and that makes it inherently less safe than a proper flash tune. That is simply not up for debate and no claims to the contrary hold water. The JB4 relies on the factory knock sensor to pull timing once it detects knock. This is the least safe method of tuning when it comes to timing. Is the knock response timing control for these cars (and BMW) good? Yes, but to argue that the JB4's method is safer than a flash tune that has timing targets that virtually eliminate knock occurring is pure nonsense. I have seen several of the JB logs on the C43 (including members of this forum), and so far, none of them have shown any major or consistent timing corrections or maxed out fuel trims. That's fantastic. I have also seen the logs for the JB4 on the C63 posted to this very site, and, well, the AFR was way too lean for E30 and the significant timing corrections were there. I get it's still in early development stages, but it backs up my point. Bottom line is, waiting on the car to correct timing because it has already seen a knock signal is not the safest way. It never has been, and it never will be.
As far as what can and can't be done with any piggy, JB4 included, vs what can be done with a flash....there is way more than just fuel scaler, and you know it. A flash allows tuning of far more variables, hence the reason that for many years the JB4 was stacked over a flash on other platforms. A flash can directly control timing in a way JB4 never can. It can find better fuel targets that optimize power under the curve across the entire rev range. A flash can do things with Camtronic that JB4 could never do. Has EC or anyone else offering a flash been able to get into the Camtronic tables? I don't know, that's for them to discuss or disclose. However, a flash has much more tuning capability, overall, than a piggy. The one thing that JB4 does that no flash can, is offer control for meth injection, and it offers a host of nice features via canbus that are non-performance related.
Does the JB4 make power: absolutely YES. It makes lots of it, and it may make just as much or more than any flash on a similar car. That is what some people want, and having the fastest and most powerful is all that many may care about...especially if it comes at a far cheaper cost than the flashes that are out there. However, a proper flash tune is just safer and will be more consistent in performance over the short and long-term. The JB4 is convenient and inexpensive. Until the flash tuners get over the hurdle of flashing via OBD on this platform, there is no more simple and convenient way to add major power than the JB4.
I'm not saying all this to try and bash BMS. That is not the point and it shouldn't be taken that way. Terry has made a devout effort to learning about tuning on several platforms. I have owned their products on other platforms, and I never personally had any issues. I very much am interested in the intake, and still plan on purchasing it in the future. BMS has top notch customer service, and has always been responsive to their customer's needs. I will sing their praises when it comes to how they interact and treat their customers and potential customers. They have outstanding support for what they sell and don't rest on their laurels when it comes to improving their products. However, this, like most other forums, is meant to be a platform of information sharing, and some of what was said here was just outright inaccurate and/or false, and the members here should have all of the information to make an informed decision.
Last edited by GuardianVA; 10-24-2018 at 02:36 PM. Reason: word choice
#91
Thread Starter
Super Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 836
Likes: 133
From: Massachusetts
2018 C43 AMG Brilliant Blue Metallic
I no not this again ... Jeesh guys why do constantly do this?
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
What tuner u use is up to you, but this isn't about that
This is about a company finally making something we have wanted since this car was released.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
What tuner u use is up to you, but this isn't about that
This is about a company finally making something we have wanted since this car was released.
#92
Payam@BMS - Will the intakes be done this week/next week? Group buy by any chance for us?
#93
Eurocharged's own c43 was already tracked and did it 11.48x @ 118.xx. That was a stage 2 car. Granted downpipes really don't do much for our platform.
I am yet to see any customer churn out similar numbers on track. But you will find 11.6 EC tuned cars on dragy. Several JB4 users have trapped higher though, just something to keep in mind.
I am yet to see any customer churn out similar numbers on track. But you will find 11.6 EC tuned cars on dragy. Several JB4 users have trapped higher though, just something to keep in mind.
OK, I don't want to hijack this thread too much, and I had hoped this wouldn't go this direction, but I have to call this out for what it is.
The JB4 is NOT inherently safer than a flash tune, and it does NOT have the same capabilities of a flash tune. The JB4 is most assuredly not safer for the transmission than a proper flash tune. A flash tune that has poorly written tables and sets bad load point targets for what it modifies, yes, is not as safe as the JB4. But to say that the JB4 is safer than a properly setup flash is just downright false. This claim has been beat to death on E**Post and elsewhere going back over seven years. The JB4 has a major flaw by nature of it being a piggy: it has absolutely no direct control over timing, and that makes it inherently less safe than a proper flash tune. That is simply not up for debate and no claims to the contrary hold water. The JB4 relies on the factory knock sensor to pull timing once it detects knock. This is the least safe method of tuning when it comes to timing. Is the knock response timing control for these cars (and BMW) good? Yes, but to argue that the JB4's method is safer than a flash tune that has timing targets that virtually eliminate knock occurring is pure nonsense. I have seen several of the JB logs on the C43 (including members of this forum), and so far, none of them have shown any major or consistent timing corrections or maxed out fuel trims. That's fantastic. I have also seen the logs for the JB4 on the C63 posted to this very site, and, well, the AFR was way too lean for E30 and the significant timing corrections were there. I get it's still in early development stages, but it backs up my point. Bottom line is, waiting on the car to correct timing because it has already seen a knock signal is not the safest way. It never has been, and it never will be.
As far as what can and can't be done with any piggy, JB4 included, vs what can be done with a flash....there is way more than just fuel scaler, and you know it. A flash allows tuning of far more variables, hence the reason that for many years the JB4 was stacked over a flash on other platforms. A flash can directly control timing in a way JB4 never can. It can find better fuel targets that optimize power under the curve across the entire rev range. A flash can do things with Camtronic that JB4 could never do. Has EC or anyone else offering a flash been able to get into the Camtronic tables? I don't know, that's for them to discuss or disclose. However, a flash has much more tuning capability, overall, than a piggy. The one thing that JB4 does that no flash can, is offer control for meth injection, and it offers a host of nice features via canbus that are non-performance related.
Does the JB4 make power: absolutely YES. It makes lots of it, and it may make just as much or more than any flash on a similar car. That is what some people want, and having the fastest and most powerful is all that many may care about...especially if it comes at a far cheaper cost than the flashes that are out there. However, a proper flash tune is just safer and will be more consistent in performance over the short and long-term. The JB4 is convenient and inexpensive. Until the flash tuners get over the hurdle of flashing via OBD on this platform, there is no more simple and convenient way to add major power than the JB4.
I'm not saying all this to try and bash BMS. That is not the point and it shouldn't be taken that way. Terry has made a devout effort to learning about tuning on several platforms. I have owned their products on other platforms, and I never personally had any issues. I very much am interested in the intake, and still plan on purchasing it in the future. BMS has top notch customer service, and has always been responsive to their customer's needs. I will sing their praises when it comes to how they interact and treat their customers and potential customers. They have outstanding support for what they sell and don't rest on their laurels when it comes to improving their products. However, this, like most other forums, is meant to be a platform of information sharing, and some of what was said here was just outright inaccurate and/or false, and the members here should have all of the information to make an informed decision.
The JB4 is NOT inherently safer than a flash tune, and it does NOT have the same capabilities of a flash tune. The JB4 is most assuredly not safer for the transmission than a proper flash tune. A flash tune that has poorly written tables and sets bad load point targets for what it modifies, yes, is not as safe as the JB4. But to say that the JB4 is safer than a properly setup flash is just downright false. This claim has been beat to death on E**Post and elsewhere going back over seven years. The JB4 has a major flaw by nature of it being a piggy: it has absolutely no direct control over timing, and that makes it inherently less safe than a proper flash tune. That is simply not up for debate and no claims to the contrary hold water. The JB4 relies on the factory knock sensor to pull timing once it detects knock. This is the least safe method of tuning when it comes to timing. Is the knock response timing control for these cars (and BMW) good? Yes, but to argue that the JB4's method is safer than a flash tune that has timing targets that virtually eliminate knock occurring is pure nonsense. I have seen several of the JB logs on the C43 (including members of this forum), and so far, none of them have shown any major or consistent timing corrections or maxed out fuel trims. That's fantastic. I have also seen the logs for the JB4 on the C63 posted to this very site, and, well, the AFR was way too lean for E30 and the significant timing corrections were there. I get it's still in early development stages, but it backs up my point. Bottom line is, waiting on the car to correct timing because it has already seen a knock signal is not the safest way. It never has been, and it never will be.
As far as what can and can't be done with any piggy, JB4 included, vs what can be done with a flash....there is way more than just fuel scaler, and you know it. A flash allows tuning of far more variables, hence the reason that for many years the JB4 was stacked over a flash on other platforms. A flash can directly control timing in a way JB4 never can. It can find better fuel targets that optimize power under the curve across the entire rev range. A flash can do things with Camtronic that JB4 could never do. Has EC or anyone else offering a flash been able to get into the Camtronic tables? I don't know, that's for them to discuss or disclose. However, a flash has much more tuning capability, overall, than a piggy. The one thing that JB4 does that no flash can, is offer control for meth injection, and it offers a host of nice features via canbus that are non-performance related.
Does the JB4 make power: absolutely YES. It makes lots of it, and it may make just as much or more than any flash on a similar car. That is what some people want, and having the fastest and most powerful is all that many may care about...especially if it comes at a far cheaper cost than the flashes that are out there. However, a proper flash tune is just safer and will be more consistent in performance over the short and long-term. The JB4 is convenient and inexpensive. Until the flash tuners get over the hurdle of flashing via OBD on this platform, there is no more simple and convenient way to add major power than the JB4.
I'm not saying all this to try and bash BMS. That is not the point and it shouldn't be taken that way. Terry has made a devout effort to learning about tuning on several platforms. I have owned their products on other platforms, and I never personally had any issues. I very much am interested in the intake, and still plan on purchasing it in the future. BMS has top notch customer service, and has always been responsive to their customer's needs. I will sing their praises when it comes to how they interact and treat their customers and potential customers. They have outstanding support for what they sell and don't rest on their laurels when it comes to improving their products. However, this, like most other forums, is meant to be a platform of information sharing, and some of what was said here was just outright inaccurate and/or false, and the members here should have all of the information to make an informed decision.
We need intakes!!! lol
#94
Thank you!! Good points were posted from both sides of the fence but can we stay on topic. This is thread on intake systems. Since only BMS has one in the making, can we stick to staying on topic?
Payam@BMS - Will the intakes be done this week/next week? Group buy by any chance for us?
Payam@BMS - Will the intakes be done this week/next week? Group buy by any chance for us?
The following users liked this post:
Dieseldan9 (10-25-2018)
#95
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 284
From: Toronto, ON
2021 Mercedes C63s AMG Coupe
OK, I don't want to hijack this thread too much, and I had hoped this wouldn't go this direction, but I have to call this out for what it is.
The JB4 is NOT inherently safer than a flash tune, and it does NOT have the same capabilities of a flash tune. A flash tune that has poorly written tables and sets bad load point targets for what it modifies, yes, is not as safe as the JB4. But to say that the JB4 is safer than a properly setup flash is just downright false. This claim has been beat to death on E90 post and elsewhere going back over seven years. The JB4 has a major inherent flaw: it has absolutely no direct control over timing, and that makes it inherently less safe than a proper flash tune. That is simply not up for debate and no claims to the contrary hold water. The JB4 relies on the factory knock sensor to pull timing once it detects knock. This is the least safe method of tuning when it comes to timing. Is the knock response timing control for these cars (and BMW) good? Yes, but to argue that the JB4's method is safer than a flash tune that has timing targets that virtually eliminate knock occurring is pure nonsense. I have seen several of the JB logs on the C43 (including members of this forum), and so far, none of them have shown any major or consistent timing corrections or maxed out fuel trims. That's fantastic. I have also seen the logs for the JB4 on the C63 posted to this very site, and, well, the AFR was way too lean for E30 and the significant timing corrections were there. I get it's still in early development stages, but it backs up my point. Bottom line is, waiting on the car to correct timing because it has already seen a knock signal is not the safest way. It never has been, and it never will be.
As far as what can and can't be done with any piggy, JB4 included, vs what can be done with a flash....there is way more than just fuel scaler, and you know it. A flash allows tuning of far more variables, hence the reason that for many years the JB4 was stacked over a flash on other platforms. A flash can directly control timing in a way JB4 never can. It can find better fuel targets that optimize power under the curve across the entire rev range. A flash can do things with Camtronic that JB4 could never do. Has EC or anyone else offering a flash been able to get into the Camtronic tables? I don't know, that's for them to discuss or disclose. However, a flash has much more tuning capability, overall, than a piggy. The one thing that JB4 does that no flash can, is offer control for meth injection, and it offers a host of nice features via canbus that are non-performance related.
Does the JB4 make power: absolutely YES. It makes lots of it, and it may make just as much or more than any flash on a similar car. That is what some people want, and having the fastest and most powerful is all that many may care about...especially if it comes at a far cheaper cost than the flashes that are out there. However, a proper flash tune is just safer and will be more consistent in performance over the short and long-term. The JB4 is convenient and inexpensive. Until the flash tuners get over the hurdle of flashing via OBD on this platform, there is no more simple and convenient way to add major power than the JB4.
I'm not saying all this to try and bash BMS. That is not the point and it shouldn't be taken that way. Terry has made a devout effort to learning about tuning on several platforms. I have owned their products on other platforms, and I never personally had any issues. I very much am interested in the intake, and still plan on purchasing it in the future. BMS has top notch customer service, and has always been responsive to their customer's needs. I will sing their praises when it comes to how they interact and treat their customers and potential customers. They have outstanding support for what they sell and don't rest on their laurels when it comes to improving their products. However, this, like most other forums, is meant to be a platform of information sharing, and some of what was said here was just outright inaccurate and/or false, and the members here should have all of the information to make an informed decision.
The JB4 is NOT inherently safer than a flash tune, and it does NOT have the same capabilities of a flash tune. A flash tune that has poorly written tables and sets bad load point targets for what it modifies, yes, is not as safe as the JB4. But to say that the JB4 is safer than a properly setup flash is just downright false. This claim has been beat to death on E90 post and elsewhere going back over seven years. The JB4 has a major inherent flaw: it has absolutely no direct control over timing, and that makes it inherently less safe than a proper flash tune. That is simply not up for debate and no claims to the contrary hold water. The JB4 relies on the factory knock sensor to pull timing once it detects knock. This is the least safe method of tuning when it comes to timing. Is the knock response timing control for these cars (and BMW) good? Yes, but to argue that the JB4's method is safer than a flash tune that has timing targets that virtually eliminate knock occurring is pure nonsense. I have seen several of the JB logs on the C43 (including members of this forum), and so far, none of them have shown any major or consistent timing corrections or maxed out fuel trims. That's fantastic. I have also seen the logs for the JB4 on the C63 posted to this very site, and, well, the AFR was way too lean for E30 and the significant timing corrections were there. I get it's still in early development stages, but it backs up my point. Bottom line is, waiting on the car to correct timing because it has already seen a knock signal is not the safest way. It never has been, and it never will be.
As far as what can and can't be done with any piggy, JB4 included, vs what can be done with a flash....there is way more than just fuel scaler, and you know it. A flash allows tuning of far more variables, hence the reason that for many years the JB4 was stacked over a flash on other platforms. A flash can directly control timing in a way JB4 never can. It can find better fuel targets that optimize power under the curve across the entire rev range. A flash can do things with Camtronic that JB4 could never do. Has EC or anyone else offering a flash been able to get into the Camtronic tables? I don't know, that's for them to discuss or disclose. However, a flash has much more tuning capability, overall, than a piggy. The one thing that JB4 does that no flash can, is offer control for meth injection, and it offers a host of nice features via canbus that are non-performance related.
Does the JB4 make power: absolutely YES. It makes lots of it, and it may make just as much or more than any flash on a similar car. That is what some people want, and having the fastest and most powerful is all that many may care about...especially if it comes at a far cheaper cost than the flashes that are out there. However, a proper flash tune is just safer and will be more consistent in performance over the short and long-term. The JB4 is convenient and inexpensive. Until the flash tuners get over the hurdle of flashing via OBD on this platform, there is no more simple and convenient way to add major power than the JB4.
I'm not saying all this to try and bash BMS. That is not the point and it shouldn't be taken that way. Terry has made a devout effort to learning about tuning on several platforms. I have owned their products on other platforms, and I never personally had any issues. I very much am interested in the intake, and still plan on purchasing it in the future. BMS has top notch customer service, and has always been responsive to their customer's needs. I will sing their praises when it comes to how they interact and treat their customers and potential customers. They have outstanding support for what they sell and don't rest on their laurels when it comes to improving their products. However, this, like most other forums, is meant to be a platform of information sharing, and some of what was said here was just outright inaccurate and/or false, and the members here should have all of the information to make an informed decision.
For the newer ECUs, can you quantify the response time between the knock sensors detecting known and making timing adjustments vs a full tune having timing targets throughout the RPM band? I completely respect your opinion, just curious to learn. A direct timing target will be safer in technically, but in real world if the knock is being detected within a few combustion cycles, then in the grand scheme of things, what are the consequences?
Also I would like to point something out, as this conversation is just for informative purposes, a full tune is possibly a safer option, IF and ONLY IF, the tuners in questions are doing the things they should be doing, which I guarantee you none of them are. It is a race to the bottom, low down time and more profit. I would not trust a single tuner bar Renntech or Weistec to do the due diligence before releasing a full tune to public. I do not want to mention names, but I know for a FACT, that some of the full tuners have been treating factory torque limiters with a grain of salt, increasing it on their whims to whatever levels, and sometimes downright shutting them off. And setting safe load points, I doubt that is something some the full tuners are even aware off. The closest I felt a no name tuner had the knowledge of doing all this right was HD tuning after reading some of their stuff.
Last edited by munis; 10-24-2018 at 03:03 PM.
#96
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2016
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From: Toronto, ON
2021 Mercedes C63s AMG Coupe
@GuardianVA if you are open to it, we have a C43 whatsapp group. Dunno if you are interested in joining, but if you are send me a shout. Its always nice to have the knowledgeable guys in the group.
#97
Anyway I had this same discussion the other day on the Stinger forum. Will just copy it here to save typing time.
Question asked: What is safer JB4 or flash map?
Originally Posted by Terry
A benefit with flash tuning is you're not confined by the factory mapped tables. A drawback is that you're not confined by the factory mapped tables. You have more flexibility but it's also a lot easier for things to go sideways. Especially in situations like this where the platform isn't highly developed, you can't load/change flash maps at home, the flash tuners are not providing the proper logging tools to evaluate how the tuning is working for their customers over a wide range of conditions, and we don't yet know where all the platform weaknesses are.
A side benefit of a properly configured piggyback, like the JB4, is it can layer in extra safety systems that are not easy to implement flash only. Go to a safe tuning map if AFR goes too lean, boost goes too high, timing drops are too severe, etc. Estimate E85 mixture using virtual logic and adjust tuning accordingly. Increase performance only as a function of water/meth flow for proper safety in the event water/meth isn't flowing properly. etc. Logical changes are very difficult to implement via flash tuning and normally only come around when platforms are highly developed and very large companies get involved.
A side benefit of a properly configured piggyback, like the JB4, is it can layer in extra safety systems that are not easy to implement flash only. Go to a safe tuning map if AFR goes too lean, boost goes too high, timing drops are too severe, etc. Estimate E85 mixture using virtual logic and adjust tuning accordingly. Increase performance only as a function of water/meth flow for proper safety in the event water/meth isn't flowing properly. etc. Logical changes are very difficult to implement via flash tuning and normally only come around when platforms are highly developed and very large companies get involved.
Originally Posted by Terry
I think you're asking the wrong question. The JB4 is a tuning tool, one that works with factory flash mapping just as well as it does with aftermarket flash mapping. In fact many of the fastest platforms we work with use the JB4 for a specific set of features layered on top of flash tuning changes. Because at the end of the day there are certain things that can only be done by flashing, other things that can only be done with an intelligent programmable system like the JB4, and you benefit by having both to optimize performance, safety, and convenience.
As to getting in to the topic in more detail I'd be happy to do that at some point but this is an intake thread. No reason to take it further off topic.
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munis (10-24-2018)
#98
For the newer ECUs, can you quantify the response time between the knock sensors detecting known and making timing adjustments vs a full tune having timing targets throughout the RPM band? I completely respect your opinion, just curious to learn. A direct timing target will be safer in technically, but in real world if the knock is being detected within a few combustion cycles, then in the grand scheme of things, what are the consequences?
Also I would like to point something out, as this conversation is just for informative purposes, a full tune is possibly a safer option, IF and ONLY IF, the tuners in questions are doing the things they should be doing, which I guarantee you none of them are. It is a race to the bottom, low down time and more profit. I would not trust a single tuner bar Renntech or Weistec to do the due diligence before releasing a full tune to public. I do not want to mention names, but I know for a FACT, that some of the full tuners have been treating factory torque limiters with a grain of salt, increasing it on their whims to whatever levels, and sometimes downright shutting them off. And setting safe load points, I doubt that is something some the full tuners are even aware off. The closest I felt a no name tuner had the knowledge of doing all this right was HD tuning after reading some of their stuff.
Also I would like to point something out, as this conversation is just for informative purposes, a full tune is possibly a safer option, IF and ONLY IF, the tuners in questions are doing the things they should be doing, which I guarantee you none of them are. It is a race to the bottom, low down time and more profit. I would not trust a single tuner bar Renntech or Weistec to do the due diligence before releasing a full tune to public. I do not want to mention names, but I know for a FACT, that some of the full tuners have been treating factory torque limiters with a grain of salt, increasing it on their whims to whatever levels, and sometimes downright shutting them off. And setting safe load points, I doubt that is something some the full tuners are even aware off. The closest I felt a no name tuner had the knowledge of doing all this right was HD tuning after reading some of their stuff.
Regarding timing advance in general it can be adjusted directly via piggyback using various methods. We've used crank position offsetting in the past, air intake temperature spoofing, and sensor biasing (in some platforms, timing is mapped on manifold pressure but boost on throttle body pressure), along term octane timing trim factors, etc.
The tuning profiles implemented on JB4 maps are always done taking in to account advance and we encourage customers to data log their vehicles to check for signs of knock (repeated timing drops in one cylinder), especially when pushing boundaries.
That said we have a positive relationship with several of the MB flash tuning companies and happy to work with their customers who want to use various features the JB4 offers in conjunction with the flash mapping they are running.
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munis (10-24-2018)
#99
I just want to say, "Thanks Terry" for actually replying to post on our boards. I know you guys are super busy so we appreciate feedback and information especially when it comes to your products. A lot of tuners just post their products and provide us with little explanation on how their product works and differs from others.
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Dieseldan9 (10-25-2018)