Notices
C450/C43 AMG
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Intake system?

 
Old 10-23-2018, 03:07 PM
  #76  
Super Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 517
Thanked 64 Times in 57 Posts
17' C43 Coupe
Originally Posted by ShakyTom View Post
I do, yes.
Ill pm you so we do not clutter this thread.
ShazV6 is offline  
Old 10-23-2018, 03:53 PM
  #77  
SPONSOR
 
Jon@BMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 364
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by ShazV6 View Post
Because with EC you run that every day all day safely opposed to jb4 where that is a certain map only and the tuning is not that involved with a jb4 like a real ecu tune. But if you are ok with not running 11.x consistently then the jb4 is the best option for you. It is an amazing product especially for 4xx bucks.

FYI i will not turn this thread to an EC vs JB4 thread but i ran my friends c43 coupe with PE exhaust i am non PE exhaust ( I am coupe as well) on his map 6 or 7 with race gas (ms109) from 40-120 and i took him by a car and a half to two cars if we kept going higher. Maybe top end is better with a full tune? Idk, just sharing my real world results.
In terms of safety one thing to keep in mind is the JB4 is confined by what it can adjust as it's working off all the factory mapped tables. So while there are some limits on what we can do performance wise, those limits also make it a much safer way to tune. There is a LOT more that can go wrong with flash mapping especially with aggressive maps. And with flash mapping there is no guarantee the factory safety systems have not been compromised. In addition the JB4 offers it's own passive safety systems that allow it to dynamically reduce power if AFR is too lean, too much timing pulled due to knock, boost is too high, fuel trims going too high, etc, in a way that is both more aggressive and more adjustable than what the ECU can do on it's own.

In terms of raw performance we're always working on mapping adjustments via free firmware updates and you'll find the maps included quite competitive with what the flash tuners offer. What the JB4 can't do right now is say remove the speed limiter, add exhaust burbles, which can only be done via flash tuning. So that's the trade off. Fortunately, the JB4 is also fully compatible with flash maps. Giving you not only a great logging tool, but boost by gear on the fly for improved traction on RWD vehicles, the ability to change power levels on the fly for higher octane fuels, E85 support, etc, without having to risk reflashing the car, etc.

And of course the JB4 can be easily installed and removed at home, without a trace, and even resold later if you move on to another platform.
Jon@BMS is online now  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to [email protected] For This Useful Post:
agchenry (10-23-2018), C43Ayemgee (10-23-2018), DameMD (10-23-2018), munis (10-24-2018), RichardCranium3 (10-23-2018)
Old 10-23-2018, 04:30 PM
  #78  
Super Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 639
Thanked 56 Times in 44 Posts
GLC43
Don't mind me, just doing a free bump as I am super excited about intakes
DameMD is offline  
Old 10-23-2018, 04:56 PM
  #79  
Member
 
CA400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: SF BAY AREA
Posts: 179
Thanked 34 Times in 25 Posts
C400
Any pictures of all the components laid out? Filters, heat shields and tubing?

another "free bump"

Alex
CA400 is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:59 AM
  #80  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 28
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
2018 C43 AMG
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Actually the Jb4 has more safety features than what a flash would have. Lean safety, overboost safety, AFR safety, etc etc.

Only reason I would ever run a flash is for fuel scalar, and getting rid of top speed. The Jb4 will do the rest
Hi Payam,

Have a few questions for you regarding my jb4, as I cant reach over 15 psi on e30 fuel. Map 2, 6 or 7.

super excited for the intakes, always a quality product from BMS... cant wait! I emailed Terry with all my logs and hope to hear back soon
ClashBandicoot is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 01:17 AM
  #81  
Super Member
 
munis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 969
Thanked 165 Times in 119 Posts
Mercedes C43 AMG Sedan
Originally Posted by ShazV6 View Post
Because with EC you run that every day all day safely opposed to jb4 where that is a certain map only and the tuning is not that involved with a jb4 like a real ecu tune. But if you are ok with not running 11.x consistently then the jb4 is the best option for you. It is an amazing product especially for 4xx bucks.

FYI i will not turn this thread to an EC vs JB4 thread but i ran my friends c43 coupe with PE exhaust i am non PE exhaust ( I am coupe as well) on his map 6 or 7 with race gas (ms109) from 40-120 and i took him by a car and a half to two cars if we kept going higher. Maybe top end is better with a full tune? Idk, just sharing my real world results.
I do not want to turn this into a vs thread either, but I do not agree about the top end. If your friend was running a map 6 and he did not know what he was doing, then it is quite easy to muck it up. Map 6 is about really fine tuning the curve to your car only, a proper one would do wonders even at the top end. To the point, my trap speed of 121mph, is still to do this day unmatched by any stage 2 car even. Just saying.

Also about the tuning with a JB4 for not being more involved, it is involved if you want to be involved in it. The user cannot adjust anything for his/her car specifically with a full tune. A full tune is usually developed for the entire platform, not each individual car unless you pay for custom tune. My map 6 is completely tailored for my boost curve. Also about it being safe, I can go back to stock any time I want with the JB4. Go back to having full performance again in just seconds. In Terms of overall safety, the JB4 is still significantly safer than any full tune. It is not like the old days anymore where AFR with a piggyback is off the charts. Like Terry said, the JB4 works based on the stock ECU tables, which for our car has fuelling values from factory for pretty high boost numbers, so the AFR stays in a very safe zone no matter what you do. Also all the factory torque limiters are completely untouched, which is far from the case for a full tune. The limiters for full tunes have now been adjusted to completely unknown territories. In terms of relative safety, it is not even a competition.
munis is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 01:25 AM
  #82  
Super Member
 
munis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 969
Thanked 165 Times in 119 Posts
Mercedes C43 AMG Sedan
Originally Posted by Lazz83 View Post
Even the stock non PE exhaust on the C43 has a 4" main pipe that the downpipes feed and my tuner was impressed with that.
My exhaust guy who did my res delete told me the same thing. He told me the new mercedes exhaust systems have been one of the best one he has seen on cars, it terms of quality and design. He told me you can do DPs if you want, but considering we only have a single cat on each side, the restriction really is not as high as we think. The gains will be very minimal.
munis is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to munis For This Useful Post:
Lazz83 (10-24-2018)
Old 10-24-2018, 03:53 AM
  #83  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 19
Thanks: 0
Thanked 28 Times in 10 Posts
335,M4,M5
Originally Posted by ClashBandicoot View Post
Hi Payam,

Have a few questions for you regarding my jb4, as I cant reach over 15 psi on e30 fuel. Map 2, 6 or 7.

super excited for the intakes, always a quality product from BMS... cant wait! I emailed Terry with all my logs and hope to hear back soon
Email me and I'll take a look tomorrow when I get into the office.


[email protected]
Payam@BMS is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 10:05 AM
  #84  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: North East
Posts: 355
Thanked 39 Times in 34 Posts
2017 AMG C43, AWE Touring, BMC Air Filters- 2015 BMW X3 3.5i (JB1 Equipped)
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Email me and I'll take a look tomorrow when I get into the office.


[email protected]
Do you have to run JB4 if you install the intake system? Will the intake throw a code? Just something I heard
Lazz83 is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 01:01 PM
  #85  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 19
Thanks: 0
Thanked 28 Times in 10 Posts
335,M4,M5
Originally Posted by Lazz83 View Post
Do you have to run JB4 if you install the intake system? Will the intake throw a code? Just something I heard
Nope! Jb4 is not needed to run our intake system. It sure would be a nice thing to get together though
Payam@BMS is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to [email protected] For This Useful Post:
Lazz83 (10-24-2018)
Old 10-24-2018, 01:07 PM
  #86  
Super Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 517
Thanked 64 Times in 57 Posts
17' C43 Coupe
Originally Posted by munis View Post
I do not want to turn this into a vs thread either, but I do not agree about the top end. If your friend was running a map 6 and he did not know what he was doing, then it is quite easy to muck it up. Map 6 is about really fine tuning the curve to your car only, a proper one would do wonders even at the top end. To the point, my trap speed of 121mph, is still to do this day unmatched by any stage 2 car even. Just saying.

Also about the tuning with a JB4 for not being more involved, it is involved if you want to be involved in it. The user cannot adjust anything for his/her car specifically with a full tune. A full tune is usually developed for the entire platform, not each individual car unless you pay for custom tune. My map 6 is completely tailored for my boost curve. Also about it being safe, I can go back to stock any time I want with the JB4. Go back to having full performance again in just seconds. In Terms of overall safety, the JB4 is still significantly safer than any full tune. It is not like the old days anymore where AFR with a piggyback is off the charts. Like Terry said, the JB4 works based on the stock ECU tables, which for our car has fuelling values from factory for pretty high boost numbers, so the AFR stays in a very safe zone no matter what you do. Also all the factory torque limiters are completely untouched, which is far from the case for a full tune. The limiters for full tunes have now been adjusted to completely unknown territories. In terms of relative safety, it is not even a competition.
Please note that this is what i mentioned before. I am not referring to off the shelf tunes, i am talking about getting your car dyno tuned from any series of tuner. I personally do not see how you can get better than that as the car is dynoed in your condition, with the same gas you use every day, with the same consistent elevation. Granted i am sure you can log everything with the JB4 and send it over to Terry. And yes i agree you can go back to stock at anytime and performance gains at anytime which is a great feature. For me, ill just put the car in C mode if i am not trying to use the cars power and then straight to S+ when i want the power, same concept as going from one map to another from my perspective as i am not pushing the car or even boosting. As far as the torque limiters are concerned some are off and some on. I spoke to EC about this already, i cannot for other tuning companies.

Yes your trap is dope man, cannot argue with that till i can get my car back to the track and see what it does or Dragy.

As for my friend, i am sure he knows how to use his jb4 and if not im sure the MS109 helped him out as well as i was just on 93. But as mentioned and i agree, every car is different and reacts differently. This is all that i will say in regards to this as this thread is about the great product of the BMS intakes which i cannot wait to get my hands on . Thanks to BMS for taking an interest for us 43 guys.

ShazV6 is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 01:20 PM
  #87  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 16
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
C43 AMG
Originally Posted by ShazV6 View Post
Please note that this is what i mentioned before. I am not referring to off the shelf tunes, i am talking about getting your car dyno tuned from any series of tuner. I personally do not see how you can get better than that as the car is dynoed in your condition, with the same gas you use every day, with the same consistent elevation. Granted i am sure you can log everything with the JB4 and send it over to Terry. And yes i agree you can go back to stock at anytime and performance gains at anytime which is a great feature. For me, ill just put the car in C mode if i am not trying to use the cars power and then straight to S+ when i want the power, same concept as going from one map to another from my perspective as i am not pushing the car or even boosting. As far as the torque limiters are concerned some are off and some on. I spoke to EC about this already, i cannot for other tuning companies.

Yes your trap is dope man, cannot argue with that till i can get my car back to the track and see what it does or Dragy.

As for my friend, i am sure he knows how to use his jb4 and if not im sure the MS109 helped him out as well as i was just on 93. But as mentioned and i agree, every car is different and reacts differently. This is all that i will say in regards to this as this thread is about the great product of the BMS intakes which i cannot wait to get my hands on . Thanks to BMS for taking an interest for us 43 guys.
please let us know once you track the car, it will be exciting to see the EC tune 0-60 and quarter mile time slip
TorontoC43 is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 01:25 PM
  #88  
Super Member
 
munis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 969
Thanked 165 Times in 119 Posts
Mercedes C43 AMG Sedan
Originally Posted by TorontoC43 View Post
please let us know once you track the car, it will be exciting to see the EC tune 0-60 and quarter mile time slip
Eurocharged's own c43 was already tracked and did it 11.48x @ 118.xx. That was a stage 2 car. Granted downpipes really don't do much for our platform.

I am yet to see any customer churn out similar numbers on track. But you will find 11.6 EC tuned cars on dragy. Several JB4 users have trapped higher though, just something to keep in mind.
munis is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to munis For This Useful Post:
C43Ayemgee (10-24-2018), Lazz83 (10-24-2018)
Old 10-24-2018, 01:47 PM
  #89  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: North East
Posts: 355
Thanked 39 Times in 34 Posts
2017 AMG C43, AWE Touring, BMC Air Filters- 2015 BMW X3 3.5i (JB1 Equipped)
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Nope! Jb4 is not needed to run our intake system. It sure would be a nice thing to get together though
Oh yes, that is the plan sir
Lazz83 is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 01:50 PM
  #90  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: the Right coast
Posts: 102
Thanked 29 Times in 23 Posts
'19 C43
Originally Posted by Terry335 View Post
In terms of safety one thing to keep in mind is the JB4 is confined by what it can adjust as it's working off all the factory mapped tables. So while there are some limits on what we can do performance wise, those limits also make it a much safer way to tune. There is a LOT more that can go wrong with flash mapping especially with aggressive maps. And with flash mapping there is no guarantee the factory safety systems have not been compromised. In addition the JB4 offers it's own passive safety systems that allow it to dynamically reduce power if AFR is too lean, too much timing pulled due to knock, boost is too high, fuel trims going too high, etc, in a way that is both more aggressive and more adjustable than what the ECU can do on it's own.

In terms of raw performance we're always working on mapping adjustments via free firmware updates and you'll find the maps included quite competitive with what the flash tuners offer. What the JB4 can't do right now is say remove the speed limiter, add exhaust burbles, which can only be done via flash tuning. So that's the trade off. Fortunately, the JB4 is also fully compatible with flash maps. Giving you not only a great logging tool, but boost by gear on the fly for improved traction on RWD vehicles, the ability to change power levels on the fly for higher octane fuels, E85 support, etc, without having to risk reflashing the car, etc.

And of course the JB4 can be easily installed and removed at home, without a trace, and even resold later if you move on to another platform.
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Actually the Jb4 has more safety features than what a flash would have. Lean safety, overboost safety, AFR safety, etc etc.

Only reason I would ever run a flash is for fuel scalar, and getting rid of top speed. The Jb4 will do the rest
OK, I don't want to hijack this thread too much, and I had hoped this wouldn't go this direction, but I have to call this out for what it is.

The JB4 is NOT inherently safer than a flash tune, and it does NOT have the same capabilities of a flash tune. The JB4 is most assuredly not safer for the transmission than a proper flash tune. A flash tune that has poorly written tables and sets bad load point targets for what it modifies, yes, is not as safe as the JB4. But to say that the JB4 is safer than a properly setup flash is just downright false. This claim has been beat to death on E**Post and elsewhere going back over seven years. The JB4 has a major flaw by nature of it being a piggy: it has absolutely no direct control over timing, and that makes it inherently less safe than a proper flash tune. That is simply not up for debate and no claims to the contrary hold water. The JB4 relies on the factory knock sensor to pull timing once it detects knock. This is the least safe method of tuning when it comes to timing. Is the knock response timing control for these cars (and BMW) good? Yes, but to argue that the JB4's method is safer than a flash tune that has timing targets that virtually eliminate knock occurring is pure nonsense. I have seen several of the JB logs on the C43 (including members of this forum), and so far, none of them have shown any major or consistent timing corrections or maxed out fuel trims. That's fantastic. I have also seen the logs for the JB4 on the C63 posted to this very site, and, well, the AFR was way too lean for E30 and the significant timing corrections were there. I get it's still in early development stages, but it backs up my point. Bottom line is, waiting on the car to correct timing because it has already seen a knock signal is not the safest way. It never has been, and it never will be.

As far as what can and can't be done with any piggy, JB4 included, vs what can be done with a flash....there is way more than just fuel scaler, and you know it. A flash allows tuning of far more variables, hence the reason that for many years the JB4 was stacked over a flash on other platforms. A flash can directly control timing in a way JB4 never can. It can find better fuel targets that optimize power under the curve across the entire rev range. A flash can do things with Camtronic that JB4 could never do. Has EC or anyone else offering a flash been able to get into the Camtronic tables? I don't know, that's for them to discuss or disclose. However, a flash has much more tuning capability, overall, than a piggy. The one thing that JB4 does that no flash can, is offer control for meth injection, and it offers a host of nice features via canbus that are non-performance related.

Does the JB4 make power: absolutely YES. It makes lots of it, and it may make just as much or more than any flash on a similar car. That is what some people want, and having the fastest and most powerful is all that many may care about...especially if it comes at a far cheaper cost than the flashes that are out there. However, a proper flash tune is just safer and will be more consistent in performance over the short and long-term. The JB4 is convenient and inexpensive. Until the flash tuners get over the hurdle of flashing via OBD on this platform, there is no more simple and convenient way to add major power than the JB4.

I'm not saying all this to try and bash BMS. That is not the point and it shouldn't be taken that way. Terry has made a devout effort to learning about tuning on several platforms. I have owned their products on other platforms, and I never personally had any issues. I very much am interested in the intake, and still plan on purchasing it in the future. BMS has top notch customer service, and has always been responsive to their customer's needs. I will sing their praises when it comes to how they interact and treat their customers and potential customers. They have outstanding support for what they sell and don't rest on their laurels when it comes to improving their products. However, this, like most other forums, is meant to be a platform of information sharing, and some of what was said here was just outright inaccurate and/or false, and the members here should have all of the information to make an informed decision.

Last edited by GuardianVA; 10-24-2018 at 02:36 PM. Reason: word choice
GuardianVA is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 02:01 PM
  #91  
Super Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 625
Thanked 78 Times in 70 Posts
2018 C43 AMG Brilliant Blue Metallic
I no not this again ... Jeesh guys why do constantly do this?

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

What tuner u use is up to you, but this isn't about that

This is about a company finally making something we have wanted since this car was released.



Dieseldan9 is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 02:35 PM
  #92  
Super Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 639
Thanked 56 Times in 44 Posts
GLC43
Originally Posted by Dieseldan9 View Post
I no not this again ... Jeesh guys why do constantly do this?

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

What tuner u use is up to you, but this isn't about that

This is about a company finally making something we have wanted since this car was released.
Thank you!! Good points were posted from both sides of the fence but can we stay on topic. This is thread on intake systems. Since only BMS has one in the making, can we stick to staying on topic?

[email protected] - Will the intakes be done this week/next week? Group buy by any chance for us?
DameMD is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 02:42 PM
  #93  
Super Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 517
Thanked 64 Times in 57 Posts
17' C43 Coupe
Originally Posted by TorontoC43 View Post
please let us know once you track the car, it will be exciting to see the EC tune 0-60 and quarter mile time slip
I will have 0-60 numbers for sure by this weekend. Track not sure, they will be closed down for the season.

Originally Posted by munis View Post
Eurocharged's own c43 was already tracked and did it 11.48x @ 118.xx. That was a stage 2 car. Granted downpipes really don't do much for our platform.

I am yet to see any customer churn out similar numbers on track. But you will find 11.6 EC tuned cars on dragy. Several JB4 users have trapped higher though, just something to keep in mind.
I agree about the down pipes. And my car will not be the best example as i do not have the PE system so i am already down 10-15 whp and also i am a coupe and weigh more than the sedans without the pano roof. Any ideas on what the other jb4 guys are running at the track?

Originally Posted by GuardianVA View Post
OK, I don't want to hijack this thread too much, and I had hoped this wouldn't go this direction, but I have to call this out for what it is.

The JB4 is NOT inherently safer than a flash tune, and it does NOT have the same capabilities of a flash tune. The JB4 is most assuredly not safer for the transmission than a proper flash tune. A flash tune that has poorly written tables and sets bad load point targets for what it modifies, yes, is not as safe as the JB4. But to say that the JB4 is safer than a properly setup flash is just downright false. This claim has been beat to death on E**Post and elsewhere going back over seven years. The JB4 has a major flaw by nature of it being a piggy: it has absolutely no direct control over timing, and that makes it inherently less safe than a proper flash tune. That is simply not up for debate and no claims to the contrary hold water. The JB4 relies on the factory knock sensor to pull timing once it detects knock. This is the least safe method of tuning when it comes to timing. Is the knock response timing control for these cars (and BMW) good? Yes, but to argue that the JB4's method is safer than a flash tune that has timing targets that virtually eliminate knock occurring is pure nonsense. I have seen several of the JB logs on the C43 (including members of this forum), and so far, none of them have shown any major or consistent timing corrections or maxed out fuel trims. That's fantastic. I have also seen the logs for the JB4 on the C63 posted to this very site, and, well, the AFR was way too lean for E30 and the significant timing corrections were there. I get it's still in early development stages, but it backs up my point. Bottom line is, waiting on the car to correct timing because it has already seen a knock signal is not the safest way. It never has been, and it never will be.

As far as what can and can't be done with any piggy, JB4 included, vs what can be done with a flash....there is way more than just fuel scaler, and you know it. A flash allows tuning of far more variables, hence the reason that for many years the JB4 was stacked over a flash on other platforms. A flash can directly control timing in a way JB4 never can. It can find better fuel targets that optimize power under the curve across the entire rev range. A flash can do things with Camtronic that JB4 could never do. Has EC or anyone else offering a flash been able to get into the Camtronic tables? I don't know, that's for them to discuss or disclose. However, a flash has much more tuning capability, overall, than a piggy. The one thing that JB4 does that no flash can, is offer control for meth injection, and it offers a host of nice features via canbus that are non-performance related.

Does the JB4 make power: absolutely YES. It makes lots of it, and it may make just as much or more than any flash on a similar car. That is what some people want, and having the fastest and most powerful is all that many may care about...especially if it comes at a far cheaper cost than the flashes that are out there. However, a proper flash tune is just safer and will be more consistent in performance over the short and long-term. The JB4 is convenient and inexpensive. Until the flash tuners get over the hurdle of flashing via OBD on this platform, there is no more simple and convenient way to add major power than the JB4.

I'm not saying all this to try and bash BMS. That is not the point and it shouldn't be taken that way. Terry has made a devout effort to learning about tuning on several platforms. I have owned their products on other platforms, and I never personally had any issues. I very much am interested in the intake, and still plan on purchasing it in the future. BMS has top notch customer service, and has always been responsive to their customer's needs. I will sing their praises when it comes to how they interact and treat their customers and potential customers. They have outstanding support for what they sell and don't rest on their laurels when it comes to improving their products. However, this, like most other forums, is meant to be a platform of information sharing, and some of what was said here was just outright inaccurate and/or false, and the members here should have all of the information to make an informed decision.
Well said.

Originally Posted by Dieseldan9 View Post
I no not this again ... Jeesh guys why do constantly do this?

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

What tuner u use is up to you, but this isn't about that

This is about a company finally making something we have wanted since this car was released.
I agree, that is why i will not be saying anything else about comparing tunes between EC and JB4 it is all up to the customers.

We need intakes!!! lol
ShazV6 is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 02:44 PM
  #94  
Super Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 517
Thanked 64 Times in 57 Posts
17' C43 Coupe
Originally Posted by DameMD View Post
Thank you!! Good points were posted from both sides of the fence but can we stay on topic. This is thread on intake systems. Since only BMS has one in the making, can we stick to staying on topic?

[email protected] - Will the intakes be done this week/next week? Group buy by any chance for us?
Exactly. And foreal Payam any group buy for us guys
ShazV6 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to ShazV6 For This Useful Post:
Dieseldan9 (10-25-2018)
Old 10-24-2018, 03:00 PM
  #95  
Super Member
 
munis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 969
Thanked 165 Times in 119 Posts
Mercedes C43 AMG Sedan
Originally Posted by GuardianVA View Post
OK, I don't want to hijack this thread too much, and I had hoped this wouldn't go this direction, but I have to call this out for what it is.

The JB4 is NOT inherently safer than a flash tune, and it does NOT have the same capabilities of a flash tune. A flash tune that has poorly written tables and sets bad load point targets for what it modifies, yes, is not as safe as the JB4. But to say that the JB4 is safer than a properly setup flash is just downright false. This claim has been beat to death on E90 post and elsewhere going back over seven years. The JB4 has a major inherent flaw: it has absolutely no direct control over timing, and that makes it inherently less safe than a proper flash tune. That is simply not up for debate and no claims to the contrary hold water. The JB4 relies on the factory knock sensor to pull timing once it detects knock. This is the least safe method of tuning when it comes to timing. Is the knock response timing control for these cars (and BMW) good? Yes, but to argue that the JB4's method is safer than a flash tune that has timing targets that virtually eliminate knock occurring is pure nonsense. I have seen several of the JB logs on the C43 (including members of this forum), and so far, none of them have shown any major or consistent timing corrections or maxed out fuel trims. That's fantastic. I have also seen the logs for the JB4 on the C63 posted to this very site, and, well, the AFR was way too lean for E30 and the significant timing corrections were there. I get it's still in early development stages, but it backs up my point. Bottom line is, waiting on the car to correct timing because it has already seen a knock signal is not the safest way. It never has been, and it never will be.

As far as what can and can't be done with any piggy, JB4 included, vs what can be done with a flash....there is way more than just fuel scaler, and you know it. A flash allows tuning of far more variables, hence the reason that for many years the JB4 was stacked over a flash on other platforms. A flash can directly control timing in a way JB4 never can. It can find better fuel targets that optimize power under the curve across the entire rev range. A flash can do things with Camtronic that JB4 could never do. Has EC or anyone else offering a flash been able to get into the Camtronic tables? I don't know, that's for them to discuss or disclose. However, a flash has much more tuning capability, overall, than a piggy. The one thing that JB4 does that no flash can, is offer control for meth injection, and it offers a host of nice features via canbus that are non-performance related.

Does the JB4 make power: absolutely YES. It makes lots of it, and it may make just as much or more than any flash on a similar car. That is what some people want, and having the fastest and most powerful is all that many may care about...especially if it comes at a far cheaper cost than the flashes that are out there. However, a proper flash tune is just safer and will be more consistent in performance over the short and long-term. The JB4 is convenient and inexpensive. Until the flash tuners get over the hurdle of flashing via OBD on this platform, there is no more simple and convenient way to add major power than the JB4.

I'm not saying all this to try and bash BMS. That is not the point and it shouldn't be taken that way. Terry has made a devout effort to learning about tuning on several platforms. I have owned their products on other platforms, and I never personally had any issues. I very much am interested in the intake, and still plan on purchasing it in the future. BMS has top notch customer service, and has always been responsive to their customer's needs. I will sing their praises when it comes to how they interact and treat their customers and potential customers. They have outstanding support for what they sell and don't rest on their laurels when it comes to improving their products. However, this, like most other forums, is meant to be a platform of information sharing, and some of what was said here was just outright inaccurate and/or false, and the members here should have all of the information to make an informed decision.

For the newer ECUs, can you quantify the response time between the knock sensors detecting known and making timing adjustments vs a full tune having timing targets throughout the RPM band? I completely respect your opinion, just curious to learn. A direct timing target will be safer in technically, but in real world if the knock is being detected within a few combustion cycles, then in the grand scheme of things, what are the consequences?

Also I would like to point something out, as this conversation is just for informative purposes, a full tune is possibly a safer option, IF and ONLY IF, the tuners in questions are doing the things they should be doing, which I guarantee you none of them are. It is a race to the bottom, low down time and more profit. I would not trust a single tuner bar Renntech or Weistec to do the due diligence before releasing a full tune to public. I do not want to mention names, but I know for a FACT, that some of the full tuners have been treating factory torque limiters with a grain of salt, increasing it on their whims to whatever levels, and sometimes downright shutting them off. And setting safe load points, I doubt that is something some the full tuners are even aware off. The closest I felt a no name tuner had the knowledge of doing all this right was HD tuning after reading some of their stuff.

Last edited by munis; 10-24-2018 at 03:03 PM.
munis is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 03:05 PM
  #96  
Super Member
 
munis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 969
Thanked 165 Times in 119 Posts
Mercedes C43 AMG Sedan
GuardianVA if you are open to it, we have a C43 whatsapp group. Dunno if you are interested in joining, but if you are send me a shout. Its always nice to have the knowledgeable guys in the group.
munis is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 04:05 PM
  #97  
SPONSOR
 
Jon@BMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 364
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by GuardianVA View Post
OK, I don't want to hijack this thread too much, and I had hoped this wouldn't go this direction, but I have to call this out for what it is.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but on many points I'd have to disagree. We've been tuning cars with the JB4 since 2008, done tens of thousands to date, and it's proven to be a very safe and effective tuning approach. It's also an approach that has some limitations which is why we offer free back end flash maps for many applications where it makes sense to do so, because as I've said some things can only be adjusted via flash mapping. The assertion that flash mapping is always safer is simply false. I've dealt with many customers on say the S63TU platform who went with the "safer" flash map approach only to later find out that the flash tuners all copied from the same base file which had inadvertently compromised their knock response tables, and ultimately many damaged pistons as a result.

Anyway I had this same discussion the other day on the Stinger forum. Will just copy it here to save typing time.

Question asked: What is safer JB4 or flash map?

Originally Posted by Terry
A benefit with flash tuning is you're not confined by the factory mapped tables. A drawback is that you're not confined by the factory mapped tables. You have more flexibility but it's also a lot easier for things to go sideways. Especially in situations like this where the platform isn't highly developed, you can't load/change flash maps at home, the flash tuners are not providing the proper logging tools to evaluate how the tuning is working for their customers over a wide range of conditions, and we don't yet know where all the platform weaknesses are.

A side benefit of a properly configured piggyback, like the JB4, is it can layer in extra safety systems that are not easy to implement flash only. Go to a safe tuning map if AFR goes too lean, boost goes too high, timing drops are too severe, etc. Estimate E85 mixture using virtual logic and adjust tuning accordingly. Increase performance only as a function of water/meth flow for proper safety in the event water/meth isn't flowing properly. etc. Logical changes are very difficult to implement via flash tuning and normally only come around when platforms are highly developed and very large companies get involved.
Question asked: What is better flash mapping or JB4 for the Stinger?

Originally Posted by Terry
I think you're asking the wrong question. The JB4 is a tuning tool, one that works with factory flash mapping just as well as it does with aftermarket flash mapping. In fact many of the fastest platforms we work with use the JB4 for a specific set of features layered on top of flash tuning changes. Because at the end of the day there are certain things that can only be done by flashing, other things that can only be done with an intelligent programmable system like the JB4, and you benefit by having both to optimize performance, safety, and convenience.

As to getting in to the topic in more detail I'd be happy to do that at some point but this is an intake thread. No reason to take it further off topic.
Jon@BMS is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to [email protected] For This Useful Post:
munis (10-24-2018)
Old 10-24-2018, 04:13 PM
  #98  
SPONSOR
 
Jon@BMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 364
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by munis View Post
For the newer ECUs, can you quantify the response time between the knock sensors detecting known and making timing adjustments vs a full tune having timing targets throughout the RPM band? I completely respect your opinion, just curious to learn. A direct timing target will be safer in technically, but in real world if the knock is being detected within a few combustion cycles, then in the grand scheme of things, what are the consequences?

Also I would like to point something out, as this conversation is just for informative purposes, a full tune is possibly a safer option, IF and ONLY IF, the tuners in questions are doing the things they should be doing, which I guarantee you none of them are. It is a race to the bottom, low down time and more profit. I would not trust a single tuner bar Renntech or Weistec to do the due diligence before releasing a full tune to public. I do not want to mention names, but I know for a FACT, that some of the full tuners have been treating factory torque limiters with a grain of salt, increasing it on their whims to whatever levels, and sometimes downright shutting them off. And setting safe load points, I doubt that is something some the full tuners are even aware off. The closest I felt a no name tuner had the knowledge of doing all this right was HD tuning after reading some of their stuff.
The largest problem is that once you start making table changes it's difficult to know all of the repercussions of those changes. And few of the companies offering maps are large enough to perform the level of testing that is really required to assure optimal operation under all conditions. What's scary to me personally is that so few of them post data logs of their work to go along with the results. The JB4 is worth it's weight for logging to your smart-phone alone, regardless of whether you choose to use it's tuning features or not.

Regarding timing advance in general it can be adjusted directly via piggyback using various methods. We've used crank position offsetting in the past, air intake temperature spoofing, and sensor biasing (in some platforms, timing is mapped on manifold pressure but boost on throttle body pressure), along term octane timing trim factors, etc.

The tuning profiles implemented on JB4 maps are always done taking in to account advance and we encourage customers to data log their vehicles to check for signs of knock (repeated timing drops in one cylinder), especially when pushing boundaries.

That said we have a positive relationship with several of the MB flash tuning companies and happy to work with their customers who want to use various features the JB4 offers in conjunction with the flash mapping they are running.
Jon@BMS is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to [email protected] For This Useful Post:
munis (10-24-2018)
Old 10-24-2018, 05:19 PM
  #99  
Super Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 639
Thanked 56 Times in 44 Posts
GLC43
I just want to say, "Thanks Terry" for actually replying to post on our boards. I know you guys are super busy so we appreciate feedback and information especially when it comes to your products. A lot of tuners just post their products and provide us with little explanation on how their product works and differs from others.
DameMD is offline  
Old 10-24-2018, 05:28 PM
  #100  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 346
Thanks: 0
Thanked 34 Times in 30 Posts
2009 C230
2 words...group buy 😀😆😆
CClement is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to CClement For This Useful Post:
Dieseldan9 (10-25-2018)

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Quick Reply: Intake system?


Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: