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Thoughts? I know this conversation has already happened in a separate thread, but isn't it just speculation to use a tweet as a basis for a theory? I still haven't received feedback regarding any actual physical confirmation of turbo sizes. Datalogging on dynos does not confirm nor negate turbos sizing differences. Not trying to stir the pot, but this kind of stuff leads to credibility issues. Either with the auto manufacturer or the aftermarket support company. This really should be addressed.
Thoughts? I know this conversation has already happened in a separate thread, but isn't it just speculation to use a tweet as a basis for a theory? I still haven't received feedback regarding any actual physical confirmation of turbo sizes. Datalogging on dynos does not confirm nor negate turbos sizing differences. Not trying to stir the pot, but this kind of stuff leads to credibility issues. Either with the auto manufacturer or the aftermarket support company. This really should be addressed.
Glad someone else noticed how they tip-toe around that in their "article." AMR already has a credibility issue, so I'll wait until Pure or another, more reputable, tuner has hands on with the turbos on the 19 and can confirm whether they are or aren't the same. After all, AMR was claiming they had gone hands on with a 2019 back in September, when not a single 2019 had been released to anyone, anywhere, in North America.
If you look at the 2018 vs. 19 HP and torque curves measured by AMR, I'd rather have the 2018 engine from about 0-5200 RPM. Power and torque develop faster in the older engine.
Makes me highly suspicious of their results. My 2019 doesn't feel less powerful or torquey in daily driving than my 2018 did.
Good find. I think AMR is correct of peak gains, C&D ran .1 faster in the quarter mile with the 2019 model vs the 2018 model, so that seems to add up.
What doesn't add up is the beginning of the dyno curve. The 2019 seems to show massive lag at low rpm, something we have not seen on any other C43 dyno charts. I’m assuming they messed up the graph.
We do not have a definitive answer on turbo size, but we do know the 2019 makes slightly more boost. I would guess 1 to 2 psi. AMR claims 11 psi for 2018 model, but they make 12 psi stock form. Here is a link to MBUSA. Their info doesn’t make sense either, as they claim 16 psi and there is no way the 2019 makes that from the factory. https://media.mbusa.com/releases/the...-amg-c43-sedan
Quote: “The AMG-enhanced 3.0-liter V6 biturbo engine boasts a high power output combined with low fuel consumption and emissions. The high power output is in part courtesy of separate, larger turbochargers (max. charge pressure 16 psi). Installed close to the engine, the two turbochargers are especially spontaneous in their response. The AMG power unit can be identified by the engine cover with red aluminum insert and AMG lettering.”
Thoughts? I know this conversation has already happened in a separate thread, but isn't it just speculation to use a tweet as a basis for a theory? I still haven't received feedback regarding any actual physical confirmation of turbo sizes. Datalogging on dynos does not confirm nor negate turbos sizing differences. Not trying to stir the pot, but this kind of stuff leads to credibility issues. Either with the auto manufacturer or the aftermarket support company. This really should be addressed.
Bro...just think about it...they are the same engine and turbos are exactly the same...
the 2018 made 362bhp @ 11/12psi stock. If the new 2019 C43 allegedly has larger turbos AND 16psi, is it really only going to make 390? You've been around the forums long enough to see that all these piggy backs are claiming like 400/430 bhp with their units. That 430bhp is with stock turbos and tacking on 4-5psi.
The JB1 adds a max 5psi around 5000rpm on map2 on stock turbos and does like 0-60 in around 3.8
2019 C43 allegedly has 16psi on larger turbos and does 0-60 in 4.1 in the most generous publication?
Huh?
They are the same size turbos bro....just extra boost....
The 2019 C43 didnt cost any more than the 2018 C43 either so its not like you paid extra for something you didnt get.
This also calls into question whether or not the E43 has larger turbos, which has also already been speculated to the same degree.
Bro...just think about it...they are the same engine and turbos are exactly the same...
the 2018 made 362bhp @ 11/12psi stock. If the new 2019 C43 allegedly has larger turbos AND 16psi, is it really only going to make 390? You've been around the forums long enough to see that all these piggy backs are claiming like 400/430 bhp with their units. That 430bhp is with stock turbos and tacking on 4-5psi.
The JB1 adds a max 5psi around 5000rpm on map2 on stock turbos and does like 0-60 in around 3.8
2019 C43 allegedly has 16psi on larger turbos and does 0-60 in 4.1 in the most generous publication?
Huh?
They are the same size turbos bro....just extra boost....
The 2019 C43 didnt cost any more than the 2018 C43 either so its not like you paid extra for something you didnt get.
This also calls into question whether or not the E43 has larger turbos, which has also already been speculated to the same degree.
It is very possible to have larger turbos with higher boost and only produce 24 hp. Tuners wring out as much HP as they can safely vs. manufacturers leaving a large buffer between actual and obtainable power. There are just too many factors that can be taken to account. I would give AMG benefit of the doubt. It would be really bad business for Mercedes to have blatently lied to its consumers and now risk a shat load of lawsuits based on false advertising. I hope that they have not taken the low road and lied about something as minute as turbo sizes. I definitely question the legitimacy of those graphs posted by AMR. I would like to see either someone from AMG or AMR chime in, because everything that is being said right now is speculation. SHOW US THE TURBOS!!!!
Last edited by MarcusDubya77; 01-24-2019 at 03:45 AM.
It is very possible to have larger turbos with higher boost and only produce 24 hp. There are just too many factors that can be taken to account. I would give AMG benefit of the doubt. It would be really bad business for Mercedes to have blatently lied to its consumers and now risk a shat load of lawsuits based on false advertising. I hope that they have not taken the low road and lied about something as minute as turbo sizes. I would like to see either someone from AMG or AMR chime in, because everything that is being said right now is speculation. SHOW US THE TURBOS!!!!
To be honest Benz has been doing this sort of "Half-Lying" for a long time. Like taking regular mercedes brakes off of an S-Class and putting them onto a C55 and printing AMG on them.
I will just say, like somebody already said above, the math does not make sense. The regular turbos at 16psi already make more than 390hp. Having 16psi with larger turbos should undoubtedly generate more than 23 additional hp. Otherwise, why add larger turbo chargers at all? It makes zero sense.
There are many parts to a turbo. It's very possible that only one of these parts was exchanged with the newer model. (different compressor housing, different exhaust housing, compressor turbine, exhaust turbine and even inlet size)
Any one of these parts could be marginally different in order to get the somewhat different results.
AMR's testing makes absolutely no sense. 1. they probably did not do back to back testing where the dyno was calibrated the same. 2. the only way the results they have posted are realistic would mean there is a turbo difference in some shape or form.
Either way, we need more information - preferably from a different source than AMR.
There are many parts to a turbo. It's very possible that only one of these parts was exchanged with the newer model. (different compressor housing, different exhaust housing, compressor turbine, exhaust turbine and even inlet size)
Any one of these parts could be marginally different in order to get the somewhat different results.
AMR's testing makes absolutely no sense. 1. they probably did not do back to back testing where the dyno was calibrated the same. 2. the only way the results they have posted are realistic would mean there is a turbo difference in some shape or form.
Either way, we need more information - preferably from a different source than AMR.
The dyno graphs with 2018 and 2019 together don't show HP and Torque crossing at 5252 rpm, which defies physics, so that is a major red flag. It doesn't help that AMR has a major credibility problem and has some difficulty with honesty and opennes. They made claims that they couldn't back up over the last six months and now this "article" makes some vague references without explicity saying the turbos are the same (probably because they haven't actually removed and examined the 2019 turbos).
If the 2019 turbos are the same as the ones for the 2018, fine. They may very well be. It's a shame that AMR just isn't reputable or credible so it makes it so that you have to take what they say with a couple spoonfuls of salt.
Poor AMR, they try to get some info for us and all we do is bash them haha! They aren't even trying to push their products on us
They've done it to themselves and earned every bit of bashing. Hiding info and refusing to answer legit questions about your products; making false and inaccurate statements. Doing that kind of stuff tends to bother people.
2017 AMG C43, AWE Touring, BMC Air Filters- 2015 BMW X3 3.5i (JB1 Equipped)
Originally Posted by MarcusDubya77
The turbos are a larger size according to the official Mercedes AMG Instagram account that responded to my question.
If they are a larger size why aren't tuners getting much higher horsepower numbers than they did with the older C43 tubos? If they are bigger then a tuner should be able to make them produce significantly more boost than the smaller turbo's.
Besides why put money into a motor that is destined to be replaced by an MB straight six twin tubo in future AMG models?
If they are a larger size why aren't tuners getting much higher horsepower numbers than they did with the older C43 tubos? If they are bigger then a tuner should be able to make them produce significantly more boost than the smaller turbo's.
Besides why put money into a motor that is destined to be replaced by an MB straight six twin tubo in future AMG models?
If they are a larger size why aren't tuners getting much higher horsepower numbers than they did with the older C43 tubos? If they are bigger then a tuner should be able to make them produce significantly more boost than the smaller turbo's.
Besides why put money into a motor that is destined to be replaced by an MB straight six twin tubo in future AMG models?
Where do you get your information from? Turbo size is only one small viariable in a tuning equation. Also, size is defined by multiple factors. Also, I have yet to see a tune for a 2019. Just an article based on a tweet.... You answered your own question about, too, with regards to engines...What to do with all of the engines and turbos now that the E43 is the E53???
2017 AMG C43, AWE Touring, BMC Air Filters- 2015 BMW X3 3.5i (JB1 Equipped)
Originally Posted by MarcusDubya77
Where do you get your information from? Turbo size is only one small viariable in a tuning equation. Also, size is defined by multiple factors. Also, I have yet to see a tune for a 2019. Just an article based on a tweet.... You answered your own question about, too, with regards to engines...What to do with all of the engines and turbos now that the E43 is the E53???
"Turbo size is only a small variable in a tuning equation"? Where do you get your information? Tell ya what buddy you can get a small turbo and I will get a large turbo and we can see who can make more boost, lol. Engine size and Turbo size are the two major factors in making high horsepower, compared to minor tweaking through tuning.
FYI the second half of my post was rhetorical, But your unwanted input was appreciated - not
"Turbo size is only a small variable in a tuning equation"? Where do you get your information? Tell ya what buddy you can get a small turbo and I will get a large turbo and we can see who can make more boost, lol. Engine size and Turbo size are the two major factors in making high horsepower, compared to minor tweaking through tuning.
FYI the second half of my post was rhetorical, But your unwanted input was appreciated - not
You can tune a piano but can you tuna fish
Ohhh...I think you forgot that part of the sentence that said "a tuning equation." Turbos are tuned for efficiency.... That is why the E43s, with larger (could be even minute size) turbos only made 23hp more than the C43s. Because they were tuned to be most efficient for their application...There definitely is more room for power if the turbo is larger...BTW, pretty classy response...SMH..
2017 AMG C43, AWE Touring, BMC Air Filters- 2015 BMW X3 3.5i (JB1 Equipped)
Originally Posted by MarcusDubya77
Ohhh...I think you forgot that part of the sentence that said "a tuning equation." Turbos are tuned for efficiency.... That is why the E43s, with larger (could be even minute size) turbos only made 23hp more than the C43s. Because they were tuned to be most efficient for their application...There definitely is more room for power if the turbo is larger...BTW, pretty classy response...SMH..
Really? remember your the one who rudely questioned my information first & who cares about tuning variable? apples to apples bigger turbos make more boost, throw the tuning factor out the window, as it s a non factor. What's the point of a bigger turbo that's been tuned down????? No point to a power enthusiast like me, which is the point of my response to this thread.
Last time I checked, the true enthusiasts on this board want the most amount of power, they can possibly squeeze out of this application- so efficiency is not in the equation. Haven't heard of a lot of AMG owner wanting efficiency
Really? remember your the one who rudely questioned my information first & who cares about tuning variable? apples to apples bigger turbos make more boost, throw the tuning factor out the window, as it s a non factor. What's the point of a bigger turbo that's been tuned down????? No point to a power enthusiast like me, which is the point of my response to this thread.
Last time I checked, the true enthusiasts on this board want the most amount of power, they can possibly squeeze out of this application- so efficiency is not in the equation. Haven't heard of a lot of AMG owner wanting efficiency
Nobody is misunderstanding what you’re saying. We all get it. Tuning make a big difference also.
Really? remember your the one who rudely questioned my information first & who cares about tuning variable? apples to apples bigger turbos make more boost, throw the tuning factor out the window, as it s a non factor. What's the point of a bigger turbo that's been tuned down????? No point to a power enthusiast like me, which is the point of my response to this thread.
Last time I checked, the true enthusiasts on this board want the most amount of power, they can possibly squeeze out of this application- so efficiency is not in the equation. Haven't heard of a lot of AMG owner wanting efficiency
I cannot think of a single car manufacturer that has wrung out every bit of power in their turboed cars. They have always left room because of the efficiency and reliability they are looking for. That is why there are so typically so much room with even just a piggyback. That has been the discussion from the beginning. No one is making tunes for 2019s, yet you have a company making claims based on a tweet. Not to mention some sketchy dyno chart. No one has debated bigger turbos don't make more power. .My VF40-18G hybrid turbo conversion was considered larger than the stock VF40 on my LGT and the only pieces changed were the compressor and exhaust wheel, bored cold side, and waste gate...Same housing...That is one way that you can make a turbo larger and flow more without affecting the size of the housing..
The only thing some folks, me included, want to know is who is providing factual info. If you have seen both turbos then please expand on the differences, or lack of...If not, then your are only adding to the speculation. ..
Last edited by MarcusDubya77; 02-03-2019 at 03:38 AM.
Really? remember your the one who rudely questioned my information first & who cares about tuning variable? apples to apples bigger turbos make more boost, throw the tuning factor out the window, as it s a non factor. What's the point of a bigger turbo that's been tuned down????? No point to a power enthusiast like me, which is the point of my response to this thread.
Last time I checked, the true enthusiasts on this board want the most amount of power, they can possibly squeeze out of this application- so efficiency is not in the equation. Haven't heard of a lot of AMG owner wanting efficiency
Youre a power enthusiast? You comment on every tune thread but I don’t think you’ve ever tuned your C43. Lol
I cannot think of a single car manufacturer that has wrung out every bit of power in their turboed cars. They have always left room because of the efficiency and reliability they are looking for. That is why there are so typically so much room with even just a piggyback. That has been the discussion from the beginning. No one is making tunes for 2019s, yet you have a company making claims based on a tweet. Not to mention some sketchy dyno chart. No one has debated bigger turbos don't make more power. .My VF40-18G hybrid turbo conversion was considered larger than the stock VF40 on my LGT and the only pieces changed were the compressor and exhaust wheel, bored cold side, and waste gate...Same housing...That is one way that you can make a turbo larger and flow more without affecting the size of the housing..
The only thing some folks, me included, want to know is who is providing factual info. If you have seen both turbos then please expand on the differences, or lack of...If not, then your are only adding to the speculation. ..
The IHI turbos in Subarus are some of the best examples of minor internal changes altering efficiency and power power potential. Interestingly enough, IHI also makes the turbos for the E43 and C43. The STi consistently made the same or similar stock power over it's lifetime, but there were several different IHI turbos on the vehicle over the years, each with slight variations to the wheels and/or housings and the center cartridge. VF-34 and VF-39 were virtually identical on the outside, and without the model designation, just a visual examination while they were still on the car would make it almost impossible to tell they were different. And in stock form, they both made the same power. However, the VF-34 had a different center cartridge and the turbine housing and wheel were larger. It had larger efficiency islands and greater aftermarket power potential.
For the 2019 C43, it's possible that IHI changed the CHRA or even one of the wheels. Until someone pulls one out of a 2019 and actually disassembles it we will not know with 100% certainty whether the turbos in the 2019 are, in fact, larger or different. There is a lot of conflicting info from Mercedes AMG on it, and AMR hasn't presented a truly genuine set of evidence to dispel the speculation. Again, until a reputable, credible source (and that ain't AMR) comes forward with actual proof, this debate is far from settled. Does it really make a lot of difference, or does it really matter? That is up to the individual owner that wants to tune their car.
01-23-2019, 03:30 AM
