Car and Driver: C63 AMG v '07 Audi RS 4 v '08 BMW M3
10-27-2007, 02:13 PM
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CLK 430 cab
lateral performance
I think the C63 will equal or exceed the M3 in these performance characteristics also, once they test the C63 with the 19s and wider rubber to match the M3s rolling stock.
10-27-2007, 02:27 PM
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10-27-2007, 02:29 PM
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10-27-2007, 03:08 PM
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2012 Cls 63 amg, 2006 Bmw M6
Plus the supposed light weight V8 that the m3 sedan is going to have. The 335i are both 6 cylinder engines. I don't know what the weight numbers are but I bet the V8 weighs more than the 335 six cylinder engines. So all I'm saying is that the C63 is going to blow the doors off a 4 door m3. Handling between these two competitors....... now that difference is going to be negligible.... and in that case C63 will be on par or even faster than a 4 door m3 around a track. I'm looking forward to a real 4 door rocket sedan comparo. We'll see who wins then.
Like I said imagine a two door C63
Last edited by caliboy; 10-27-2007 at 03:25 PM.
10-27-2007, 03:09 PM
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2012 Cls 63 amg, 2006 Bmw M6
10-27-2007, 04:20 PM
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CLS55 AMG
10-27-2007, 04:31 PM
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So what?? You're arguing that a sedan "has" to be a few hundred pounds heavier than a coupe, based upon its having four doors, but the E36 M3 specs prove this assertion to be prima facie false. The E36 M3 sedan was a sedan, and it DID NOT WEIGH 200 pounds more than the coupe!
In fact, according to edmunds.com, the two cars weighed the same:
1998 E36 M3 coupe: 3175 pounds
1998 E36 M3 sedan: 3175 pounds
So you keep saying, but this is an opinion and is not borne out by previous models. The carbon fiber roof supposedly saves 50 or 60 pounds, and adding doors isn't replacing air; there's metal and a rear window on the coupe where the rear doors on a sedan would go, you know. 
In fact, according to edmunds.com, the two cars weighed the same:
1998 E36 M3 coupe: 3175 pounds
1998 E36 M3 sedan: 3175 pounds
Last edited by Improviz; 10-27-2007 at 04:54 PM.
10-27-2007, 04:53 PM
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CLS55 AMG
Never thought I'd see myself arguing the same side as m&m, but life is chock full of surprises....
Wtf are you talking about?? Curb weight is the weight of the car with no passengers, full tank of fuel, spare, etc.. Gross weight is the fully-loaded up weight of a vehicle (i.e., its maximum possible weight), and has no bearing upon what a vehicle will weigh when empty!
Right.
335i sedan:
Measured curb weight: 3616 pounds
0-60: 4.8
0-100: 11.8
0-140: 26.1
1/4: 13.5 @ 106
grip: 0.89 g
braking: 157 ft
335i coupe:
Measured curb weight: 3557 pounds
0-60: 4.9
0-100: 12.1
0-140: 28.0
1/4: 13.6@105
grip: 0.87 g
braking: 160 ft
This is irrelevant. Both the M3 coupe and sedan will have the same V8, so neither will have any weight difference as a result of engine.
335i sedan:
Measured curb weight: 3616 pounds
0-60: 4.8
0-100: 11.8
0-140: 26.1
1/4: 13.5 @ 106
grip: 0.89 g
braking: 157 ft
335i coupe:
Measured curb weight: 3557 pounds
0-60: 4.9
0-100: 12.1
0-140: 28.0
1/4: 13.6@105
grip: 0.87 g
braking: 160 ft
This is irrelevant. Both the M3 coupe and sedan will have the same V8, so neither will have any weight difference as a result of engine.
10-27-2007, 04:54 PM
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Who cares about 0 to 60. The M3 wins this review. The C class being 4000lbs is brutal. The car will be dog in anything other than straight line speed.
10-27-2007, 05:05 PM
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CLS55 AMG
Lol, I wondered how long it would take for the good ol' fashioned "twisties" argument to come out! Btw, the C63 had better braking as well, albeit by one foot, but better nevertheless. Just like the BMW's 0.03 g skidpad difference (0.91 vs 0.89) is slightly better. As usual, the BMW was better in slalom (or lane change as C&D calls it), 65.9 to 64.0.
Only problem with the "twisties" argument is that now, since the C63 both outaccelerates and outbrakes the M3, this will tend to negate any advantage in corners (if you consider an extra 0.03 g of grip to be earth-shattering, that is). Iow, even if you do pull a faster corner, the C63 will pass you on the straights, and you won't catch up under braking either!
10-27-2007, 05:32 PM
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2012 Cayenne Turbo
Actually, it's 0-60, 70, 80, 90....150, basically.
Lol, I wondered how long it would take for the good ol' fashioned "twisties" argument to come out! Btw, the C63 had better braking as well, albeit by one foot, but better nevertheless. Just like the BMW's 0.03 g skidpad difference (0.91 vs 0.89) is slightly better. As usual, the BMW was better in slalom (or lane change as C&D calls it), 65.9 to 64.0.
Only problem with the "twisties" argument is that now, since the C63 both outaccelerates and outbrakes the M3, this will tend to negate any advantage in corners (if you consider an extra 0.03 g of grip to be earth-shattering, that is). Iow, even if you do pull a faster corner, the C63 will pass you on the straights, and you won't catch up under braking either!
Lol, I wondered how long it would take for the good ol' fashioned "twisties" argument to come out! Btw, the C63 had better braking as well, albeit by one foot, but better nevertheless. Just like the BMW's 0.03 g skidpad difference (0.91 vs 0.89) is slightly better. As usual, the BMW was better in slalom (or lane change as C&D calls it), 65.9 to 64.0.
Only problem with the "twisties" argument is that now, since the C63 both outaccelerates and outbrakes the M3, this will tend to negate any advantage in corners (if you consider an extra 0.03 g of grip to be earth-shattering, that is). Iow, even if you do pull a faster corner, the C63 will pass you on the straights, and you won't catch up under braking either!
Bet you can't wait for the old slushbox argument?
Or the overweight argument?
Or the poor steering argument?
Or the Mercedes quality argument?
10-27-2007, 05:47 PM
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2012 Cls 63 amg, 2006 Bmw M6
Dude where did you get your numbers from. How could a coupe which weighs less with the same engine be slower than a 4 door sedan? The weight distribution argument would not play that much of a big deal in such a supposedly negligible difference in weight in these two cars.
And the reason i use gross weight is because..... who the **** is gonna drive the car...... a freakin ghost. Curb weight is really unrealistic in that sense because unless you are a freakin horse jockey or you are driving the car remote control..... you have to account for an average 70kg person driving the car.
I don't believe the 335i sedan is faster than the coupe.......show it to me in a video or something.
And yes duh both the m3 coupe and sedan will have the same v8 engine. I was referring to that engines weight in comparison to the 335i's engine weight as someone else was trying to argue.
Besides the carbon roof on the coupe M3 will play a nice difference in weight albeight a small one but still a difference compared to the sedan.
LETS MAKE A BET RIGHT NOW THAT THE M3 COUPE WILL HANDLE BETTER AND BE FASTER THAN THE SEDAN...... Thats my argument right there. AND BASED ON THAT THE C63 will own an apples to apples comparison of two 4 doors sedan in all aspects. I don't get it now that there is a 4 door sedan M3 why do we have to compare a two door with a carbon fiber roof versus a four dour C63?
And the reason i use gross weight is because..... who the **** is gonna drive the car...... a freakin ghost. Curb weight is really unrealistic in that sense because unless you are a freakin horse jockey or you are driving the car remote control..... you have to account for an average 70kg person driving the car.
I don't believe the 335i sedan is faster than the coupe.......show it to me in a video or something.
And yes duh both the m3 coupe and sedan will have the same v8 engine. I was referring to that engines weight in comparison to the 335i's engine weight as someone else was trying to argue.
Besides the carbon roof on the coupe M3 will play a nice difference in weight albeight a small one but still a difference compared to the sedan.
LETS MAKE A BET RIGHT NOW THAT THE M3 COUPE WILL HANDLE BETTER AND BE FASTER THAN THE SEDAN...... Thats my argument right there. AND BASED ON THAT THE C63 will own an apples to apples comparison of two 4 doors sedan in all aspects. I don't get it now that there is a 4 door sedan M3 why do we have to compare a two door with a carbon fiber roof versus a four dour C63?
Never thought I'd see myself arguing the same side as m&m, but life is chock full of surprises....
Wtf are you talking about?? Curb weight is the weight of the car with no passengers, full tank of fuel, spare, etc.. Gross weight is the fully-loaded up weight of a vehicle (i.e., its maximum possible weight), and has no bearing upon what a vehicle will weigh when empty!
Right.
335i sedan:
Measured curb weight: 3616 pounds
0-60: 4.8
0-100: 11.8
0-140: 26.1
1/4: 13.5 @ 106
grip: 0.89 g
braking: 157 ft
335i coupe:
Measured curb weight: 3557 pounds
0-60: 4.9
0-100: 12.1
0-140: 28.0
1/4: 13.6@105
grip: 0.87 g
braking: 160 ft
This is irrelevant. Both the M3 coupe and sedan will have the same V8, so neither will have any weight difference as a result of engine.
Wtf are you talking about?? Curb weight is the weight of the car with no passengers, full tank of fuel, spare, etc.. Gross weight is the fully-loaded up weight of a vehicle (i.e., its maximum possible weight), and has no bearing upon what a vehicle will weigh when empty!
Right.
335i sedan:
Measured curb weight: 3616 pounds
0-60: 4.8
0-100: 11.8
0-140: 26.1
1/4: 13.5 @ 106
grip: 0.89 g
braking: 157 ft
335i coupe:
Measured curb weight: 3557 pounds
0-60: 4.9
0-100: 12.1
0-140: 28.0
1/4: 13.6@105
grip: 0.87 g
braking: 160 ft
This is irrelevant. Both the M3 coupe and sedan will have the same V8, so neither will have any weight difference as a result of engine.
Last edited by caliboy; 10-27-2007 at 05:54 PM.
10-27-2007, 05:48 PM
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CLS55 AMG
Personal preference. It's like saying that blondes are better than brunettes.
Plus, this is kind of a funny argument from someone who drives an SMG. Six of one, half a dozen of the other if you ask me....
Hmm, I believe that, in fact, yes, let me look, that's right: I already criticized the car for being too heavy.
Oh, I've already seen that one made:
They also mentioned:
Says the guy driving a 6-Series, which according to Consumer Reports' latest ratings scores about 37% below average in reliability?
If you want reliability to go with your high performance, I'd say pass on German and get a Lexus IS-F.
Any more stupid comments you'd care to add?
Plus, this is kind of a funny argument from someone who drives an SMG.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other if you ask me....Hmm, I believe that, in fact, yes, let me look, that's right: I already criticized the car for being too heavy.
Oh, I've already seen that one made:
Originally Posted by Automobile Magazine
The biggest letdown - and it's a huge one - is the steering. Whereas other 3-series (and all previous M3s) read the road surface to your fingertips, the M3 is frustratingly numb on center. It transmits only the largest of messages, and effort is too light and doesn't build naturally. The ratio is wonderfully quick but, to add insult to injury, the M3's turning radius feels vastly larger than any other 3-series.
Originally Posted by Automobile Magazine
The 2008 BMW M3 is either a complete winner or a big disappointment. It all depends on your expectations.
If you're looking for a supremely fast, incredibly capable back-road stormer, you won't be disappointed; the E92 is even faster than the previous E46 M3.
If, however, you think the M3 should be more than just speed, you'll be disappointed. After only a few seconds behind the wheel, it becomes obvious that the M3's engineers traded some driver involvement in return for more speed.....
Brake feel is excellent, but pedal effort rose precipitously during lapping of the 26-turn Ascari racetrack in Spain despite aggressive (read: noisy) pads. Even though we had to pull into pit lane for a few minutes after each lap, brake fade set in after a few laps. The M3's hefty curb weight is to blame....
The original M3 was a track-ready, high-strung performer that made no excuses in its performance. As fun in a 15-mph school zone as it was at ten-tenths on a race track, it dominated everything that came its way. And while it's likely that the new M3 is faster around the Nordschleife than its competitors, it's lost a good bit of the driver involvement that has made previous Ms legends.
At the end of the day, we don't just expect fast lap times from an M3, we expect it to put a big smile on our faces. And this time around, the smiles just aren't as big.
If you're looking for a supremely fast, incredibly capable back-road stormer, you won't be disappointed; the E92 is even faster than the previous E46 M3.
If, however, you think the M3 should be more than just speed, you'll be disappointed. After only a few seconds behind the wheel, it becomes obvious that the M3's engineers traded some driver involvement in return for more speed.....
Brake feel is excellent, but pedal effort rose precipitously during lapping of the 26-turn Ascari racetrack in Spain despite aggressive (read: noisy) pads. Even though we had to pull into pit lane for a few minutes after each lap, brake fade set in after a few laps. The M3's hefty curb weight is to blame....
The original M3 was a track-ready, high-strung performer that made no excuses in its performance. As fun in a 15-mph school zone as it was at ten-tenths on a race track, it dominated everything that came its way. And while it's likely that the new M3 is faster around the Nordschleife than its competitors, it's lost a good bit of the driver involvement that has made previous Ms legends.
At the end of the day, we don't just expect fast lap times from an M3, we expect it to put a big smile on our faces. And this time around, the smiles just aren't as big.
Says the guy driving a 6-Series, which according to Consumer Reports' latest ratings scores about 37% below average in reliability?
If you want reliability to go with your high performance, I'd say pass on German and get a Lexus IS-F.
Any more stupid comments you'd care to add?
10-27-2007, 05:55 PM
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2012 Cls 63 amg, 2006 Bmw M6
Settle down Beavis lol and let the brother live. So what you think about my bet.
Personal preference. It's like saying that blondes are better than brunettes.
Plus, this is kind of a funny argument from someone who drives an SMG. Six of one, half a dozen of the other if you ask me....
Hmm, I believe that, in fact, yes, let me look, that's right: I already criticized the car for being too heavy.
Oh, I've already seen that one made:
They also mentioned:
Says the guy driving a 6-Series, which according to Consumer Reports' latest ratings scores about 37% below average in reliability?
If you want reliability to go with your high performance, I'd say pass on German and get a Lexus IS-F.
Any more stupid comments you'd care to add?
Plus, this is kind of a funny argument from someone who drives an SMG.
Six of one, half a dozen of the other if you ask me....Hmm, I believe that, in fact, yes, let me look, that's right: I already criticized the car for being too heavy.
Oh, I've already seen that one made:
They also mentioned:
Says the guy driving a 6-Series, which according to Consumer Reports' latest ratings scores about 37% below average in reliability?
If you want reliability to go with your high performance, I'd say pass on German and get a Lexus IS-F.
Any more stupid comments you'd care to add?
10-27-2007, 05:59 PM
#42
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CLS55 AMG
And the reason i use gross weight is because..... who the **** is gonna drive the car...... a freakin ghost. Curb weight is really unrealistic in that sense because unless you are a freakin horse jockey or you are driving the car remote control..... you have to account for an average 70kg person driving the car.
Please: stop taking so many bong hits before typing these posts!
As to apples and oranges, a hypothetical, nonexistant C63 coupe isn't really much of an argument, now is it? Particularly when, as we've already shown, the difference between the M3 coupes and sedans is negligble (335i) or equivalent (E36 M3).
10-27-2007, 06:01 PM
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Yes, and as the trap figures for the C63 make apparent, it has 507. Just like the E55 was rated at 469, but its trap speed (and dynos) showed that it was producing more like 520-530 crank. Any idiot knows that they've underrated several models' horsepower, which I guess rules you out.
Yeah I kinda' figured that out. All I was saying is I think it has 500hp. Which is great for that price. 500hp does make a compelling argument, no matter what brand you prefer.
10-27-2007, 06:07 PM
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CLS55 AMG
Well, assuming that the rest of the C63s are in this same league that is....we'll have to see once more tests come out, owners track 'em, etc. Anyway, this is very impressive, that's for sure....but anyone who would be disappointed in any of these three cars (RS4, M3, C63 in alphabetical order by manufacturer) has a few screws loose imo. All are monsters, and are stellar performers by any measure.
10-27-2007, 06:08 PM
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Looking for a new toy.
10-27-2007, 06:09 PM
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2012 Cayenne Turbo
As usual you fail to grasp my point, dismissing an argument just because it's almost become a meme doesn't make it invalid.
And why do you have to be so rude about it?
Guess what? I like both Mercedes and BMW. They both have strong and weak points. And these generally are consistent because of their differing design philosophies.
And as far as dismissing me because of my M6. You should understand Im dumping the vehicle in favor of a Mercedes CLK63 BS because of a bad experience.
BTW, what does the "M" in SMG stand for again?
And why do you have to be so rude about it?
Guess what? I like both Mercedes and BMW. They both have strong and weak points. And these generally are consistent because of their differing design philosophies.
And as far as dismissing me because of my M6. You should understand Im dumping the vehicle in favor of a Mercedes CLK63 BS because of a bad experience.
BTW, what does the "M" in SMG stand for again?
Last edited by chiphomme; 10-27-2007 at 06:19 PM.
10-27-2007, 06:13 PM
#47
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2012 Cls 63 amg, 2006 Bmw M6
Dude listen man forget all the 335 i vs m3 vs all that crap argument. It's obvious I don't know anything about those cars and I only brought it up cause that is what some else used.
But one question and answer with a yes or a no......
Will the M3 sedan be faster than the m3 coupe?
let me respond for you HELL NO! Then in the apples to apples comparison of a C63 to a 4 door new M3 in all categories who wins overall.... Have a nice day.
Oh and Dude you need to chill with the way you answer people on here.....cause you come off as a somewhat of a jerk to anyone who argues anything with you.
Just answer the f'in question above and hopefully you will see what I was arguing. And again settle down Beavis
lol!
But one question and answer with a yes or a no......
Will the M3 sedan be faster than the m3 coupe?
let me respond for you HELL NO! Then in the apples to apples comparison of a C63 to a 4 door new M3 in all categories who wins overall.... Have a nice day.
Oh and Dude you need to chill with the way you answer people on here.....cause you come off as a somewhat of a jerk to anyone who argues anything with you.
Just answer the f'in question above and hopefully you will see what I was arguing. And again settle down Beavis
lol!Dude, I like totally got them from Car & Driver, and linked to the instrumented tests they performed on the cars!! Read them and get back to me, OK?
Jeez, you're really acting dense....if you weigh the cars empty and then add a driver, what, is the same driver gonna make one car heavier than the other?
Please: stop taking so many bong hits before typing these posts!
I see, so Car & Driver lied. I linked to the articles, dude; if you don't believe 'em, it's not really my problem.
Which goes to show that you didn't understand what he was trying to argue, or you're spinning like a top. The argument was (and Car & Driver's results back this up) that the sedan was only slightly heavier than the coupe. In response to this, you brought up the V8. Which was, and still is, irrelavent, as the 335is both have the same engines, just as the M3s will both have the same engines.
Which would be great if I were making the argument that the two will weigh the same, which I'm not...I'm disputing YOUR allegation that the sedan will weigh "> 200 pounds" than the coupe.
As to apples and oranges, a hypothetical, nonexistant C63 coupe isn't really much of an argument, now is it? Particularly when, as we've already shown, the difference between the M3 coupes and sedans is negligble (335i) or equivalent (E36 M3).
Jeez, you're really acting dense....if you weigh the cars empty and then add a driver, what, is the same driver gonna make one car heavier than the other?
Please: stop taking so many bong hits before typing these posts!
I see, so Car & Driver lied. I linked to the articles, dude; if you don't believe 'em, it's not really my problem.
Which goes to show that you didn't understand what he was trying to argue, or you're spinning like a top. The argument was (and Car & Driver's results back this up) that the sedan was only slightly heavier than the coupe. In response to this, you brought up the V8. Which was, and still is, irrelavent, as the 335is both have the same engines, just as the M3s will both have the same engines.
Which would be great if I were making the argument that the two will weigh the same, which I'm not...I'm disputing YOUR allegation that the sedan will weigh "> 200 pounds" than the coupe.
As to apples and oranges, a hypothetical, nonexistant C63 coupe isn't really much of an argument, now is it? Particularly when, as we've already shown, the difference between the M3 coupes and sedans is negligble (335i) or equivalent (E36 M3).
Last edited by caliboy; 10-27-2007 at 06:16 PM.
10-27-2007, 06:32 PM
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2012 Cls 63 amg, 2006 Bmw M6
Any BTW I am so with you on the GTR. That car is gonna kick some ****.
I think the ideal situation would be to have this car to rock the competition and a 4 door amg rocket like the C63 for more space.
10-27-2007, 06:38 PM
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I'm hoping to pull this off maybe in a few years...own the GT-R now and maybe like 2-3 years from now lease a C63 or something.
