Car and Driver: C63 AMG v '07 Audi RS 4 v '08 BMW M3
#51
Arrogant. I not only grasped it, I crushed it and threw it back to you. It's pretty laughable to accuse someone who just refuted basically every argument you made of "not grasping" it, dude.
And making it a meme doesn't make it valid, particularly wrt the C63....multiple publications have given this car's handling and steering stellar reviews, many of which have been posted in this very forum.
...says the guy who, two sentences ago, basically said that I'm stupid, implying that I can't understand a series of rhetorical questions...oh, yeah, Mr. Manners, that's you. rolleyes:
Guess what? So do I. Own one of each, in fact; wife drives a 3 Series. Great car.
As usual, you failed to grasp my point. My point was specifically in response to your "Mercedes quality issues" question, and was meant to illustrate that if quality is high up on your list, Mercedes *and* BMW pale in comparison to the brands who lead in quality.
Well, I guess you'll just have to suffer in the twisties.
Sorry, but pulling a little steering-mounted lever and letting the car upshift/downshift for you is hardly the same level of driver involvement--nor does it require anything approaching the same level of skill--as a good heel and toe downshift, and the end result is the same, whether you're doing that or pushing one of the steering-wheel-mounted buttons on the C63, or using the levers on the Lexus IS-F: the vehicle is doing the heavy lifting and executing the clutching/shifting/rev matching, not the driver, and so it is simply not the same "drivers' experience". I've spent more seat time in manual-trannied cars than autos, and to me a manual has a left-foot-operated clutch.
...says the guy who, two sentences ago, basically said that I'm stupid, implying that I can't understand a series of rhetorical questions...oh, yeah, Mr. Manners, that's you. rolleyes:
Guess what? So do I. Own one of each, in fact; wife drives a 3 Series. Great car.
Sorry, but pulling a little steering-mounted lever and letting the car upshift/downshift for you is hardly the same level of driver involvement--nor does it require anything approaching the same level of skill--as a good heel and toe downshift, and the end result is the same, whether you're doing that or pushing one of the steering-wheel-mounted buttons on the C63, or using the levers on the Lexus IS-F: the vehicle is doing the heavy lifting and executing the clutching/shifting/rev matching, not the driver, and so it is simply not the same "drivers' experience". I've spent more seat time in manual-trannied cars than autos, and to me a manual has a left-foot-operated clutch.
#52
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wow...man i wish i had the $$$ to get one of these c63's...man....i would go c63. i know the m3 won the comparison, but to me the m3 seems more like a 'track' car. which is nice, but i aint never gonna go into a track, straight line accel and TORQUE is what matters for everyday driving i think. so c63 all the way!
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2012 Cayenne Turbo
Where did I say you were stupid again? You didn't get my point, as you haven't in our past run ins. So it's a matter of fact not some ad hominem
"you're an idiot if you don't realize the C63 is underrated" attack.
And I have never said SMG was as involving as a standard manual. So quit trying to make an argument where there isn't one. SMG is certainly a manual and is better in the shifting department than any Mercedes auto I've encountered.
"you're an idiot if you don't realize the C63 is underrated" attack.
And I have never said SMG was as involving as a standard manual. So quit trying to make an argument where there isn't one. SMG is certainly a manual and is better in the shifting department than any Mercedes auto I've encountered.
Last edited by chiphomme; 10-27-2007 at 07:05 PM.
#55
Facts, and they are facts, were presented showing this to be wrong. I presented instrumented tests run by Car & Driver on the 335i, showing that the sedan outperformed the coupe DESPITE being heavier, and that a) the E36 M3 sedan and coupe both weighed the same, and b) the 335i coupe and sedan were a whopping 59 pounds apart.
So, faced with this, what do you do: shift your argument:
So if you get that kind of variance in one car, you think that you'll be able to say, unequivocally, that one will always be faster than the other?
"Just answer the f'in question", I suppose, to you is a fine example of how NOT to "come off as somewhat of a jerk"?
Last edited by Improviz; 10-27-2007 at 08:25 PM.
#56
1) some newb raised (predictably) the old "twisties" argument.
2) I responded that given the C63's superior acceleration, better braking, and skidpad grip within 0.03 g of of the M3, the M3's "twisties" capabilities above and beyond the C63 are certainly open to dispute, given that any slight edge the M3 has around a corner would be overcome by the Benz's superior acceleration and braking capabilities.
Your "response" was to utterly avoid any attempt at a refutation of my point, and to instead raise a bunch of red herrings in the form of rhetorical questions:
Fine.
But don't complain about my being "rude" when I hit back.
It's funny, you've been "going" to get a CLS63 for quite some time now....how long does it take to purchase a car? I can get one in an hour or two, but maybe the dealers are slower where you live. And frankly, for someone who's ready to go out and buy a Benz, you sure don't seem to have many good things to say about them.
Tell me: why is it exactly that you're going to purchase this heavy, uninvolving, poor handling, slushbox-driven, unreliable Benz?
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2012 Cayenne Turbo
You are the king of the fallacious argument.
God, you can't even get the basics right. I am getting a CLK63 Black. And its a ***** to get.
God, you can't even get the basics right. I am getting a CLK63 Black. And its a ***** to get.
#58
For you to lecture anyone on the principles of debate is like Joseph Stalin conducting a lecture on the principles of capitalism and human rights.
I see....and so the CLK63 Black, which is made by Mercedes and weighs roughly 4000 pounds, has a "slushbox", and, presumably the "poor steering" and "poor Mercedes quality" you cited earlier, is, in your mind, 180 degrees, diametrically opposed to the Mercedes C63, which weighs roughly 4000 pounds, has the same "slushbox", "poor steering", and "poor Mercedes quality".....right?
And this is why you want to buy one......riiiigggghhhht??
And this is why you want to buy one......riiiigggghhhht??
Last edited by Improviz; 10-27-2007 at 08:33 PM.
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LOL! Point proven.
I see....and so the CLK63 Black, which is made by Mercedes and weighs roughly 4000 pounds, has a "slushbox", and, presumably the "poor steering" and "poor Mercedes quality" you cited earlier, is, in your mind, 180 degrees, diametrically opposed to the Mercedes C63, which weighs roughly
4000 pounds, has the same "slushbox", "poor steering", and "poor Mercedes quality".....right?
And this is why you want to buy one......riiiigggghhhht
4000 pounds, has the same "slushbox", "poor steering", and "poor Mercedes quality".....right?
And this is why you want to buy one......riiiigggghhhht
Do you always argue with yourself? You can't even get my car right then you go on to supposedly describe my opinion of it. I said none of that about the CLK63BS (or the C63). My car is scheduled to be built on Tuesday (finally). So however long it takes to get here(hopefully around Thanksgiving) I'll post pictures.
Again, I raised those as typical arguments against Mercedes, that shouldn't just be dismissed as flippantly you do with the "twisities".
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/s...arguments.html
Last edited by chiphomme; 10-27-2007 at 08:53 PM.
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'11 CTS V Coupe 6MT
Is it just me?
First of all, I LOVE AMG & M cars, I've owned both. I still may buy a C63, but damm, 10mpg!!
My '07 twin turbo, 600+rwhp C6 'vert Vette gets 25.9 mpg (highway cruise at 80-85mph). Driving it (around town) like I stole it nets 20-22mpg.
Yah I know it's lighter, blah blah, but it has close to 700 crank HP.
Can that 10mpg be right? What's that, 150 mile range per tank (no pun)
'08 CTS-V could be looking better than ever.
Is this a "who cares" thing?
Regards,
George
My '07 twin turbo, 600+rwhp C6 'vert Vette gets 25.9 mpg (highway cruise at 80-85mph). Driving it (around town) like I stole it nets 20-22mpg.
Yah I know it's lighter, blah blah, but it has close to 700 crank HP.
Can that 10mpg be right? What's that, 150 mile range per tank (no pun)
'08 CTS-V could be looking better than ever.
Is this a "who cares" thing?
Regards,
George
#61
A quick search on Autotrader.com shows that quite a few of them are available. Would you like me to provide you with a list of dealers who have them in stock, right now, so that you can finally get your heavy, poor handling, lousy steering, uninvolving, slushbox-driven, lousy in the twisties, unreliable Benz?
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A quick search on Autotrader.com shows that quite a few of them are available. Would you like me to provide you with a list of dealers who have them in stock, right now, so that you can finally get your heavy, poor handling, lousy steering, uninvolving, slushbox-driven, lousy in the twisties, unreliable Benz?
What is your point? Are you calling me a liar about the CLK63 BS I'm buying?
If so, be more forthright
#63
What size tinfoil hat do you take?
Please, don't insult me by saying I'm you; I'm arguing with you.
Typo. One letter difference
Right, which is why in every post I've encountered you, you've raised the same criticisms of Mercedes: poor handling, heavy, lousy in the twisties, and unreliable.
So if the C63 is too heavy at 4,000 pounds, then why isn't the CLK63 too heavy at 3950 or so?
If Mercedes as a brand is unreliable, then why isn't the CLK63 unreliable?
As you, yourself, have written, your M6's engine went out:
So why are you in here blathering, raising stupid rhetorical questions about Mercedes reliability in response to an utterly unrelated point, when your BMW's engine blew, and when Consumer Reports rates the 6 Series' reliability at 37% below average?
And before, you wrote the following gem:
BUZZ!!! Nice try, chip, but you lose; the numbers are in.
"Flippantly dismissing" being, to you, my stating that even IF the M3 is faster through the curves, the C63 will outbrake it and catch it on the straights?
Are you really so stupid that you can't grasp those simple facts, or are you simply being willfully obtuse? This isn't rocket science, let alone a "flippant dismissal"; what makes a car go around a track (or twisties) is its relative grip, its braking, and acceleration capabilities, unless that is you intend to putt putt between corners, speed up in the corners, and slow back down again after taking them.
So if 1) Car B is within a few tenths of Car A in terms of absolute grip (0.89 g for the C63, 0.91 for the M3), and 2) Car B stops faster, and 3) Car B accelerates FAR faster, then how is it valid to dismissively state that Car B will get its clock cleaned in the "twisties"??
Answer: it will not.
Please, don't insult me by saying I'm you; I'm arguing with you.
Typo. One letter difference
So if the C63 is too heavy at 4,000 pounds, then why isn't the CLK63 too heavy at 3950 or so?
If Mercedes as a brand is unreliable, then why isn't the CLK63 unreliable?
As you, yourself, have written, your M6's engine went out:
And before, you wrote the following gem:
Are you people serious? Until AMG lightens their cars and puts something other than a slushbox in them they'll be chasing M's.
BTW, C&D has the new M3 @ 4.4 to 60 and 12.9@111 in the quarter.
(faster than their test on the RS4). And they believe the numbers will be better once final production car is available.
BTW, C&D has the new M3 @ 4.4 to 60 and 12.9@111 in the quarter.
(faster than their test on the RS4). And they believe the numbers will be better once final production car is available.
My car is scheduled to be built on Tuesday (finally). So however long it takes to get here(hopefully around Thanksgiving) I'll post pictures.
Again, I raised those as typical arguments against Mercedes, that shouldn't just be dismissed as flippantly you do with the "twisities".
Again, I raised those as typical arguments against Mercedes, that shouldn't just be dismissed as flippantly you do with the "twisities".
Are you really so stupid that you can't grasp those simple facts, or are you simply being willfully obtuse? This isn't rocket science, let alone a "flippant dismissal"; what makes a car go around a track (or twisties) is its relative grip, its braking, and acceleration capabilities, unless that is you intend to putt putt between corners, speed up in the corners, and slow back down again after taking them.
So if 1) Car B is within a few tenths of Car A in terms of absolute grip (0.89 g for the C63, 0.91 for the M3), and 2) Car B stops faster, and 3) Car B accelerates FAR faster, then how is it valid to dismissively state that Car B will get its clock cleaned in the "twisties"??
Answer: it will not.
Last edited by Improviz; 10-27-2007 at 09:34 PM.
#64
I'm also wondering why you're purchasing a heavy, unreliable, slushbox-driven, poor handling, outclassed-in-the-twisties Benz, when you have repeatedly stated in this and other forums that you consider the Ms to be superior. If so, why not get another one?
This is not a rhetorical question. You have, repeatedly, made comments like those listed above, so it begs a question: why the hell would someone who feels this way about a marque buy one of them? I wouldn't even step on a lot if I had this opinion of a brand, let alone purchase one.
Maybe you are going to get one, and are just weird and bipolar.....from what I've seen you exhibit in your posting behavior so far, this is, quite frankly, entirely plausible.
Last edited by Improviz; 10-27-2007 at 09:24 PM.
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I'm just wondering why it's taking you so long to purchase this heavy, unreliable, slushbox-driven, poor handling, outclassed-in-the-twisties Benz, when they're sitting on dealers' lots right now.
I'm also wondering why you're purchasing a heavy, unreliable, slushbox-driven, poor handling, outclassed-in-the-twisties Benz, when you have repeatedly stated in this and other forums that you consider the Ms to be superior. If so, why not get another one?
This is not a rhetorical question. You have, repeatedly, made comments like those listed above, so it begs a question: why the hell would someone who feels this way about a marque buy one of them? I wouldn't even step on a lot if I had this opinion of a brand, let alone purchase one.
Maybe you are going to get one, and are just weird and bipolar.....from what I've seen you exhibit in your posting behavior so far, this is, quite frankly, entirely plausible.
I'm also wondering why you're purchasing a heavy, unreliable, slushbox-driven, poor handling, outclassed-in-the-twisties Benz, when you have repeatedly stated in this and other forums that you consider the Ms to be superior. If so, why not get another one?
This is not a rhetorical question. You have, repeatedly, made comments like those listed above, so it begs a question: why the hell would someone who feels this way about a marque buy one of them? I wouldn't even step on a lot if I had this opinion of a brand, let alone purchase one.
Maybe you are going to get one, and are just weird and bipolar.....from what I've seen you exhibit in your posting behavior so far, this is, quite frankly, entirely plausible.
If you knew anything about the production numbers of the CLK63 BS you wouldn't be asking the question. Mercedes is only making ~500 worldwide with only about 300 coming to the US. My dealer had to call in a favor to get the thing. I tend to believe it because it took months to confirm(and I'm a fairly good customer-bought a CLS55, Cayenne S, A4, and Q7 in the past two years from him) .
And as far as why I'm buying the Black. It is unlike any other production Merc.
It is made to be a great drivers car not just another overpowered cruiser.
I never said overall Ms are superior to AMG based cars. (The post you dug up about AMGs chasing Ms was a poor choice of words comment on one of your twisties dismissals. I believe I stated that at the time. It was about a specific attribute not generality). And who do you think is trying to displace whom? The C63 is aimed at the M3 not the other way around. Not that BMW isn't really worried about Mercedes.
I have said over and over again I have had a bad experience with my M6 and I'm going to give Mercedes a try again because of it(after having a bad experience with my CLS55). And as I have repeatedly said I like both brands. They both have strong and weak points. Mercedes has typically been attacked for the things I have listed and BMW gets hammered on not having the power of AMG cars, having overly complicated interfaces, and god awful Chris Bangle styling.
Maybe I'm too much of a contrarian. I get grief on M3 boards over liking Mercedes.
And if I'm so "obtuse" and mentally ill why do you bother arguing?
Last edited by chiphomme; 10-27-2007 at 10:57 PM.
#66
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This arguing is pointless, the C63 is faster than the M3. The 30-50 on the C63 is 3x faster than the M3 and 50-70 2x as fast. Game over.
I'm also tired of the whole twisties/track argument to; it's old and frankly stupid. How many of these cars will ever see a track, 1%? The #s even there are so negnligible it's not even worth looking at. In the real world the M3 is just another slow car in the C63s way. Shoot, you could even hunt M5s with the C63.
I'm also tired of the whole twisties/track argument to; it's old and frankly stupid. How many of these cars will ever see a track, 1%? The #s even there are so negnligible it's not even worth looking at. In the real world the M3 is just another slow car in the C63s way. Shoot, you could even hunt M5s with the C63.
#67
If you knew anything about the production numbers of the CLK63 BS you wouldn't be asking the question. Mercedes is only making ~500 worldwide with only about 300 coming to the US. My dealer had to call in a favor to get the thing. I tend to believe it because it took months to confirm(and I'm a fairly good customer-bought a CLS55, Cayenne S, A4, and Q7 in the past two years from him) .
Atlanta has one:
Bakersfield has one:
Star motorcars has one:
Silver Star Mercedes has one:
Autohaus on Edens has one:
Herb Gordon Mercedes Benz has one:
There were several more, but I think I've made my point.
So how does the BS alleviate these? It does have a more sophisticated suspension (although the C63, which you've criticized, shares its front suspension, minus the capability of adjustment), but is still heavy, with the slushbox, etc....
And the cost is awfully high when you consider this:
It's clearly faster, more exclusive, and so forth, but that's a pretty high price point for 0.5 seconds! And, as an added bonus, the M3 is lighter, has no slushbox, and BMW quality, which you regard as higher than MB quality.
So would you care to take another crack at explaining that "AMGs will be chasing M cars" remark? As I'm sure you're aware, the CLK63 managed to outdo the new M3 at Hockenheim, "slushbox" and heavy weight aside...
And, as indicated by the "slushbox" remark, you have, on many occasions, repeatedly made remarks indicative of, shall we say, a much higher degree of enthusiasm towards the BMW marque. Which is fine, but when you on one hand bash Mercedes all the time and then say you're planning to purchase one, it does beg a question, which imo you really haven't adequately addressed.
I can’t think I ever imagined a time when I would state, unequivocally, that a fast C-class would have better steering than an M3, but that time has come. The M3’s rack has been the subject of much debate since its launch. I don’t have as much of a problem with its apparent lack of “feel” as some because you can still place the car accurately through any turn, but the weighting and steering wheel of the C63 are both superior. Turn the wheel through 15 degrees either side of the straight-ahead, as you do countless times when making time to Frankfurt airport, and your hands and shoulders are met with more resistance than they are in the M3.......But what I find most appealing about the C63 as it covers ground is the way it finds a rhythm over these tough roads. I ran a C55 for a year and found it a wonderful car to live with, but there was always some disharmony present when you wanted to pin your ears back. Either the ESP became overzealous, or the auto ’box felt crude, or the engine didn’t want to pull above 6000rpm. All of this has been overturned by the C63. Wolf Zimmerman, one of the big cheeses at AMG, had insisted that I should drive the car in “M” mode, just using the paddles to shift manually and taking advantage of 30 percent faster shift times than in the fastest automatic setting. But this isn’t Hockenheim and whatever time may be lost in cog changes is surely recovered by the security of having two hands on the wheel at all times.
"Unless the M3 driver’s heel ’n’ toe technique is of the highest quality, he won’t see which way the C63 went."
This is like no other Mercedes auto gearbox. It takes a few miles to adapt to the way an individual drives, but thereafter it does little wrong. Upshifts are fast and smooth, and the way it actions blip-perfect downshifts under hard braking will be a revelation to those who have cursed these automatic transmissions in the past.
"Unless the M3 driver’s heel ’n’ toe technique is of the highest quality, he won’t see which way the C63 went."
This is like no other Mercedes auto gearbox. It takes a few miles to adapt to the way an individual drives, but thereafter it does little wrong. Upshifts are fast and smooth, and the way it actions blip-perfect downshifts under hard braking will be a revelation to those who have cursed these automatic transmissions in the past.
I have said over and over again I have had a bad experience with my M6 and I'm going to give Mercedes a try again because of it(after having a bad experience with my CLS55). And as I have repeatedly said I like both brands. They both have strong and weak points. Mercedes has typically been attacked for the things I have listed and BMW gets hammered on not having the power of AMG cars, having overly complicated interfaces, and god awful Chris Bangle styling.
Maybe I'm too much of a contrarian. I get grief on M3 boards over liking Mercedes.
And if I'm so "obtuse" and mentally ill why do you bother arguing?
Maybe I'm too much of a contrarian. I get grief on M3 boards over liking Mercedes.
And if I'm so "obtuse" and mentally ill why do you bother arguing?
Anyway, I like both cars, and although I'll probably retire from the HiPo cars after this one, if I were in the market, I'd give both of these cars a serious look and drive....both have things I like and dislike.
Last edited by Improviz; 10-28-2007 at 12:10 AM.
#68
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C55 AMG, 135i, 911 GT3, GLE43 AMG
When it comes to ride quality I think the testers either failed to mention or simply neglected to use the adjustable suspension settings on the C63. The ones that used this feature found the C63 to be very comfortable and well damped on the more forgiving settings and the ones that didn't left the car in it's firmest setting to give them something to fault the C63 about and a reason to praise the M3.
The car tested by C&D did not have the performance package either, which would have included even more sporty suspension and 19" rims with lower profile tires......which likely means even worse ride quality, unless you're on smooth track.
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This arguing is pointless, the C63 is faster than the M3. The 30-50 on the C63 is 3x faster than the M3 and 50-70 2x as fast. Game over.
I'm also tired of the whole twisties/track argument to; it's old and frankly stupid. How many of these cars will ever see a track, 1%? The #s even there are so negnligible it's not even worth looking at. In the real world the M3 is just another slow car in the C63s way. Shoot, you could even hunt M5s with the C63.
I'm also tired of the whole twisties/track argument to; it's old and frankly stupid. How many of these cars will ever see a track, 1%? The #s even there are so negnligible it's not even worth looking at. In the real world the M3 is just another slow car in the C63s way. Shoot, you could even hunt M5s with the C63.
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Actually, it's 0-60, 70, 80, 90....150, basically.
Lol, I wondered how long it would take for the good ol' fashioned "twisties" argument to come out! Btw, the C63 had better braking as well, albeit by one foot, but better nevertheless. Just like the BMW's 0.03 g skidpad difference (0.91 vs 0.89) is slightly better. As usual, the BMW was better in slalom (or lane change as C&D calls it), 65.9 to 64.0.
Only problem with the "twisties" argument is that now, since the C63 both outaccelerates and outbrakes the M3, this will tend to negate any advantage in corners (if you consider an extra 0.03 g of grip to be earth-shattering, that is). Iow, even if you do pull a faster corner, the C63 will pass you on the straights, and you won't catch up under braking either!
Lol, I wondered how long it would take for the good ol' fashioned "twisties" argument to come out! Btw, the C63 had better braking as well, albeit by one foot, but better nevertheless. Just like the BMW's 0.03 g skidpad difference (0.91 vs 0.89) is slightly better. As usual, the BMW was better in slalom (or lane change as C&D calls it), 65.9 to 64.0.
Only problem with the "twisties" argument is that now, since the C63 both outaccelerates and outbrakes the M3, this will tend to negate any advantage in corners (if you consider an extra 0.03 g of grip to be earth-shattering, that is). Iow, even if you do pull a faster corner, the C63 will pass you on the straights, and you won't catch up under braking either!
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2012 Cayenne Turbo
Again: I searched on autotrader.com (try it yourself), and had absolutely no difficulty whatsoever finding several brand new CLK Black Series on dealers' lots. So I'm happy to hear you were able to order one, but they're out there:
Atlanta has one:
Bakersfield has one:
Star motorcars has one:
Silver Star Mercedes has one:
Autohaus on Edens has one:
Herb Gordon Mercedes Benz has one:
There were several more, but I think I've made my point.
Atlanta has one:
Bakersfield has one:
Star motorcars has one:
Silver Star Mercedes has one:
Autohaus on Edens has one:
Herb Gordon Mercedes Benz has one:
There were several more, but I think I've made my point.
Yeah here and now you can find them. Two months ago you couldn't unless you paid above sticker (go read through the CLK63 Black forum). And all this is moot because my dealer couldn't get one easily and thats who I buy from.
And this wouldn't even be a talking point had you not basically called me a liar.
You're dodging my questions. You criticize the C63 as heavy, but the CLK63 BS' weight is within 100 pounds of it. It has the same "slushbox" that you unfailingly criticize. It is made by Mercedes, whose reliability you've called into question. Its steering rack is made by Mercedes, and you've criticized their steering racks.
First off I have never said I disliked the C63 but is heavy, it does have an automatic tranny, and Mercedes quality has been an issue. Are you denying this? Sheez. How many times do I have to say that each car maker has its weaknesses and strengths. Those historically (well at least over the last decade) have been Mercedes' problems.
And I wouldn't have gone back to Mercedes had BMW not failed so miserably to impress me with this M6(what do I have to pay to get one that works.
I am still concerned with the weight, the autobox,and the quality but it appears Mercedes is making a more serious effort at a drivers car (read CLK63BS reviews-as well as C63). but I'll know for sure in a month or so
Last edited by chiphomme; 10-28-2007 at 01:05 AM.
#72
Yeah here and now you can find them. Two months ago you couldn't unless you paid above sticker (go read through the CLK63 Black forum). And all this is moot because my dealer couldn't get one easily and thats who I buy from.
And this wouldn't even be a talking point had you not basically called me a liar.
And this wouldn't even be a talking point had you not basically called me a liar.
No! For someone who is so fond of claiming that I'm failing to grasp your points, you sure are doing a fine job of failing to grasp mine....since implicit points don't seem to work, I'll say it explicitly: each of the above (now sugar-coated) criticisms can be levelled at the CLK63 BS.
Which is why I felt it begged the question "Why are you buying one?". You have, at last, addressed this:
How many times do I have to say that each car maker has its weaknesses and strengths. Those historically (well at least over the last decade) have been Mercedes' problems.
And I wouldn't have gone back to Mercedes had BMW not failed so miserably to impress me with this M6(what do I have to pay to get one that works.
I am still concerned with the weight, the autobox,and the quality but it appears Mercedes is making a more serious effort at a drivers car (read CLK63BS reviews-as well as C63). but I'll know for sure in a month or so
And I wouldn't have gone back to Mercedes had BMW not failed so miserably to impress me with this M6(what do I have to pay to get one that works.
I am still concerned with the weight, the autobox,and the quality but it appears Mercedes is making a more serious effort at a drivers car (read CLK63BS reviews-as well as C63). but I'll know for sure in a month or so
Last edited by Improviz; 10-28-2007 at 01:01 PM.
#74
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2012 Cayenne Turbo
As I said: I was curious as to why it's taking you so long to get a car that's sitting on dealers' lots.
Well, you were saying a bit more than that, more along the lines of the "slushbox" is uninvolving, poor steering, waay too heavy, terrible quality, etc..
No I wasn't. You were reading into it too much.
No! For someone who is so fond of claiming that I'm failing to grasp your points, you sure are doing a fine job of failing to grasp mine....since implicit points don't seem to work, I'll say it explicitly: each of the above (now sugar-coated) criticisms can be levelled at the CLK63 BS.
Which is why I felt it begged the question "Why are you buying one?". You have, at last, addressed this:
Why? Because the CLK63BS has never been the point of this thread (neither has my M6). I have pointed those two vehicles out merely to show some sort of neutrality.
Well, with all due respect to my AMG brethren, for the kind of wad a CLK63 BS will cost you, you could buy a brand new GT3--a fantastic drivers' car if ever there was one--*and* have enough left over to get a few year old S Class in excecllent condition for a daily driver, but as with automatics/manuals/SMGs, it all boils down to personal preference!
Very true. But I dont want a 911 and that car is even more difficult to get than my CLK63BS (but I haven't checked Autotrader to confirm).
Peace to you (and I'm not being sarcastic).
#75
No you weren't. You were mocking me. You couldn't even get the car right. Then in order to recover some sort of footing on a point that shouldn't even be debated you go digging through Autotrader. Whatever. I had a hell of time getting this limited production car from my dealer.
Maybe, but your remarks (this and other prior remarks, such as the "AMGs will always be chasing M cars") seemed to be intended to denigrate the AMG cars. Perhaps you genuinely didn't mean them that way, but it's hard for me to imagine that you're incapable of seeing that others can, and have, taken them that way.
Now, faced with this inherent contradiction, you've basically ceded that AMG is now (most of us would argue then as well, but whatever) building "serious drivers' cars".
Fine, although as I've said, imo the GT3 is a better "drivers' car" than the CLK63 BS (although I'd be perfectly happy with either, but as I said I'm retiring from the HiPo car genre after this one).
But the criticisms were made, and I was responding to them specifically.
Anyway, I belive we've gotten about as far down the "mutual understanding" road as we're going to on this point, so I'd say let's just drop it.
Likewise, and I'm not either.