Improviz

Arrogant. I not only grasped it, I crushed it and threw it back to you. It's pretty laughable to accuse someone who just refuted basically every argument you made of "not grasping" it, dude.

And making it a meme doesn't make it valid, particularly wrt the C63....multiple publications have given this car's handling and steering stellar reviews, many of which have been posted in this very forum.

...says the guy who, two sentences ago, basically said that I'm stupid, implying that I can't understand a series of rhetorical questions...oh, yeah, Mr. Manners, that's you. rolleyes:

Guess what? So do I. Own one of each, in fact; wife drives a 3 Series. Great car.

As usual, you failed to grasp my point. My point was specifically in response to your "Mercedes quality issues" question, and was meant to illustrate that if quality is high up on your list, Mercedes *and* BMW pale in comparison to the brands who lead in quality.

Well, I guess you'll just have to suffer in the twisties.

Sorry, but pulling a little steering-mounted lever and letting the car upshift/downshift for you is hardly the same level of driver involvement--nor does it require anything approaching the same level of skill--as a good heel and toe downshift, and the end result is the same, whether you're doing that or pushing one of the steering-wheel-mounted buttons on the C63, or using the levers on the Lexus IS-F: the vehicle is doing the heavy lifting and executing the clutching/shifting/rev matching, not the driver, and so it is simply not the same "drivers' experience". I've spent more seat time in manual-trannied cars than autos, and to me a manual has a left-foot-operated clutch.

drho2004

wow...man i wish i had the $$$ to get one of these c63's...man....i would go c63. i know the m3 won the comparison, but to me the m3 seems more like a 'track' car. which is nice, but i aint never gonna go into a track, straight line accel and TORQUE is what matters for everyday driving i think. so c63 all the way!

chiphomme

Where did I say you were stupid again? You didn't get my point, as you haven't in our past run ins. So it's a matter of fact not some ad hominem
"you're an idiot if you don't realize the C63 is underrated" attack.
And I have never said SMG was as involving as a standard manual. So quit trying to make an argument where there isn't one. SMG is certainly a manual and is better in the shifting department than any Mercedes auto I've encountered.

bmwhype

10 mpg. that is equivalent to what the old hummers get.

Improviz

Look, man, you're the one who started the argument by stating the M3 sedan would weigh at least 200 pounds more than the coupe, and that a coupe with the same motor, etc. would always outrun and outhandle the sedan. Your "proof" of this was that sedans always weigh waaaay more than coupes, and bizarrely citing gross vehicle weight ratings as "proving" more than curb weight figures, then acting as if because curb weight for BOTH vehicles excludes driver for BOTH vehicles, adding a 70 kg driver to the vehicles would somehow, magically, make one car slower than the other.

Facts, and they are facts, were presented showing this to be wrong. I presented instrumented tests run by Car & Driver on the 335i, showing that the sedan outperformed the coupe DESPITE being heavier, and that a) the E36 M3 sedan and coupe both weighed the same, and b) the 335i coupe and sedan were a whopping 59 pounds apart.

So, faced with this, what do you do: shift your argument:

Based upon the evidence we've seen from the 335s, I really don't think that one could definitively state this one way or the other. Production tolerances (google it) alone can produce different results in the SAME car. For example, when we had our little get together a while back, candrive55's car, a bone stock E55, was consistently quicker by about a carlength (one tenth in terms of time) than the other bone stock E55s he ran, multiple times.

So if you get that kind of variance in one car, you think that you'll be able to say, unequivocally, that one will always be faster than the other?

Well, when you ever get to be The Final Word on the subject, I'll start deferring to you, but I believe that I'll be shovelling snow in hell long before that happens. Personally, I'll be waiting for the test results, but I doubt there'll be any huge differences between the M3 coupe and sedan versions.

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same about you, only the facts speak for themselves: your very first post was a response to mine, typed in all caps (signifying shouting), and basically a rant against my opinions; then, as soon as I challenged your opinions, you started lacing your responses with profanity and sarcasm. You implied that I lied when I posted Car & Driver's test data showing the sedan to be faster, etc etc....so, if you want people to treat you with kid gloves, try taking off the boxing gloves in your responses.

"Just answer the f'in question", I suppose, to you is a fine example of how NOT to "come off as somewhat of a jerk"?

Improviz

You implied it by, as you have in our past run ins, resorting to ad hominem "you don't understand" type arguments when your first arguments are refuted. Sequence was:

1) some newb raised (predictably) the old "twisties" argument.

2) I responded that given the C63's superior acceleration, better braking, and skidpad grip within 0.03 g of of the M3, the M3's "twisties" capabilities above and beyond the C63 are certainly open to dispute, given that any slight edge the M3 has around a corner would be overcome by the Benz's superior acceleration and braking capabilities.

Your "response" was to utterly avoid any attempt at a refutation of my point, and to instead raise a bunch of red herrings in the form of rhetorical questions:
I refuted each and every stupid rhetorical question you raised, just as I refuted every lame point you made in previous encounters. You clearly resent being proven wrong, and so lash out with personal attacks.

Fine.

But don't complain about my being "rude" when I hit back.

You clearly missed my point, as you're so fond of saying....I'm pointing out that your implication (in stupid rhetorical red herring question #1), that the SMG is somehow oh so much more involving to drive than a paddle- or button-shifted auto, is patently ridiculous.

Yes, because pulling that little steering wheel mounted plastic lever and having the car do the shifting and rev-matching is so much more "involving" than pushing the button on the C63...right?

It's funny, you've been "going" to get a CLS63 for quite some time now....how long does it take to purchase a car? I can get one in an hour or two, but maybe the dealers are slower where you live. And frankly, for someone who's ready to go out and buy a Benz, you sure don't seem to have many good things to say about them.

Tell me: why is it exactly that you're going to purchase this heavy, uninvolving, poor handling, slushbox-driven, unreliable Benz?

chiphomme

You are the king of the fallacious argument.
God, you can't even get the basics right. I am getting a CLK63 Black. And its a ***** to get.

Improviz

For you to lecture anyone on the principles of debate is like Joseph Stalin conducting a lecture on the principles of capitalism and human rights.

I see....and so the CLK63 Black, which is made by Mercedes and weighs roughly 4000 pounds, has a "slushbox", and, presumably the "poor steering" and "poor Mercedes quality" you cited earlier, is, in your mind, 180 degrees, diametrically opposed to the Mercedes C63, which weighs roughly 4000 pounds, has the same "slushbox", "poor steering", and "poor Mercedes quality".....right?

And this is why you want to buy one......riiiigggghhhht??

chiphomme

LOL! Point proven.






Do you always argue with yourself? You can't even get my car right then you go on to supposedly describe my opinion of it. I said none of that about the CLK63BS (or the C63). My car is scheduled to be built on Tuesday (finally). So however long it takes to get here(hopefully around Thanksgiving) I'll post pictures.

Again, I raised those as typical arguments against Mercedes, that shouldn't just be dismissed as flippantly you do with the "twisities".


http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/s...arguments.html

dasrok8

First of all, I LOVE AMG & M cars, I've owned both. I still may buy a C63, but damm, 10mpg!!

My '07 twin turbo, 600+rwhp C6 'vert Vette gets 25.9 mpg (highway cruise at 80-85mph). Driving it (around town) like I stole it nets 20-22mpg.
Yah I know it's lighter, blah blah, but it has close to 700 crank HP.

Can that 10mpg be right? What's that, 150 mile range per tank (no pun)
'08 CTS-V could be looking better than ever.

Is this a "who cares" thing?
Regards,
George

Improviz

A quick search on Autotrader.com shows that quite a few of them are available. Would you like me to provide you with a list of dealers who have them in stock, right now, so that you can finally get your heavy, poor handling, lousy steering, uninvolving, slushbox-driven, lousy in the twisties, unreliable Benz?

chiphomme

What is your point? Are you calling me a liar about the CLK63 BS I'm buying?
If so, be more forthright

Improviz

What size tinfoil hat do you take?

Please, don't insult me by saying I'm you; I'm arguing with you.

Typo. One letter difference

Right, which is why in every post I've encountered you, you've raised the same criticisms of Mercedes: poor handling, heavy, lousy in the twisties, and unreliable.

So if the C63 is too heavy at 4,000 pounds, then why isn't the CLK63 too heavy at 3950 or so?

If Mercedes as a brand is unreliable, then why isn't the CLK63 unreliable?

As you, yourself, have written, your M6's engine went out:
So why are you in here blathering, raising stupid rhetorical questions about Mercedes reliability in response to an utterly unrelated point, when your BMW's engine blew, and when Consumer Reports rates the 6 Series' reliability at 37% below average?

And before, you wrote the following gem:
BUZZ!!! Nice try, chip, but you lose; the numbers are in.

"Flippantly dismissing" being, to you, my stating that even IF the M3 is faster through the curves, the C63 will outbrake it and catch it on the straights?

Are you really so stupid that you can't grasp those simple facts, or are you simply being willfully obtuse? This isn't rocket science, let alone a "flippant dismissal"; what makes a car go around a track (or twisties) is its relative grip, its braking, and acceleration capabilities, unless that is you intend to putt putt between corners, speed up in the corners, and slow back down again after taking them.

So if 1) Car B is within a few tenths of Car A in terms of absolute grip (0.89 g for the C63, 0.91 for the M3), and 2) Car B stops faster, and 3) Car B accelerates FAR faster, then how is it valid to dismissively state that Car B will get its clock cleaned in the "twisties"??

Answer: it will not.

Improviz

I'm just wondering why it's taking you so long to purchase this heavy, unreliable, slushbox-driven, poor handling, outclassed-in-the-twisties Benz, when they're sitting on dealers' lots right now.

I'm also wondering why you're purchasing a heavy, unreliable, slushbox-driven, poor handling, outclassed-in-the-twisties Benz, when you have repeatedly stated in this and other forums that you consider the Ms to be superior. If so, why not get another one?

This is not a rhetorical question. You have, repeatedly, made comments like those listed above, so it begs a question: why the hell would someone who feels this way about a marque buy one of them? I wouldn't even step on a lot if I had this opinion of a brand, let alone purchase one.

Maybe you are going to get one, and are just weird and bipolar.....from what I've seen you exhibit in your posting behavior so far, this is, quite frankly, entirely plausible.

chiphomme

If you knew anything about the production numbers of the CLK63 BS you wouldn't be asking the question. Mercedes is only making ~500 worldwide with only about 300 coming to the US. My dealer had to call in a favor to get the thing. I tend to believe it because it took months to confirm(and I'm a fairly good customer-bought a CLS55, Cayenne S, A4, and Q7 in the past two years from him) .

And as far as why I'm buying the Black. It is unlike any other production Merc.
It is made to be a great drivers car not just another overpowered cruiser.



I never said overall Ms are superior to AMG based cars. (The post you dug up about AMGs chasing Ms was a poor choice of words comment on one of your twisties dismissals. I believe I stated that at the time. It was about a specific attribute not generality). And who do you think is trying to displace whom? The C63 is aimed at the M3 not the other way around. Not that BMW isn't really worried about Mercedes.

I have said over and over again I have had a bad experience with my M6 and I'm going to give Mercedes a try again because of it(after having a bad experience with my CLS55). And as I have repeatedly said I like both brands. They both have strong and weak points. Mercedes has typically been attacked for the things I have listed and BMW gets hammered on not having the power of AMG cars, having overly complicated interfaces, and god awful Chris Bangle styling.
Maybe I'm too much of a contrarian. I get grief on M3 boards over liking Mercedes.
And if I'm so "obtuse" and mentally ill why do you bother arguing?

bfnnrgn

This arguing is pointless, the C63 is faster than the M3. The 30-50 on the C63 is 3x faster than the M3 and 50-70 2x as fast. Game over.

I'm also tired of the whole twisties/track argument to; it's old and frankly stupid. How many of these cars will ever see a track, 1%? The #s even there are so negnligible it's not even worth looking at. In the real world the M3 is just another slow car in the C63s way. Shoot, you could even hunt M5s with the C63.

Improviz

Again: I searched on autotrader.com (try it yourself), and had absolutely no difficulty whatsoever finding several brand new CLK Black Series on dealers' lots. So I'm happy to hear you were able to order one, but they're out there:
Atlanta has one:
Bakersfield has one:
Star motorcars has one:
Silver Star Mercedes has one:
Autohaus on Edens has one:
Herb Gordon Mercedes Benz has one:

There were several more, but I think I've made my point.

You're dodging my questions. You criticize the C63 as heavy, but the CLK63 BS' weight is within 100 pounds of it. It has the same "slushbox" that you unfailingly criticize. It is made by Mercedes, whose reliability you've called into question. Its steering rack is made by Mercedes, and you've criticized their steering racks.

So how does the BS alleviate these? It does have a more sophisticated suspension (although the C63, which you've criticized, shares its front suspension, minus the capability of adjustment), but is still heavy, with the slushbox, etc....

And the cost is awfully high when you consider this:


It's clearly faster, more exclusive, and so forth, but that's a pretty high price point for 0.5 seconds! And, as an added bonus, the M3 is lighter, has no slushbox, and BMW quality, which you regard as higher than MB quality.

False. I had not, in that thread, prior to your post, posted anything whatsoever about BMWs and twisties; in fact, my only post in the thread at that time was post #37 (yours was #39) in response to another poster, who had incorrectly asserted that a C5 Corvette would not turn a faster lap than an Evo IX. I posted the lap times for both cars. I made no mention of BMWs, or their prowess in the twisties.

So would you care to take another crack at explaining that "AMGs will be chasing M cars" remark? As I'm sure you're aware, the CLK63 managed to outdo the new M3 at Hockenheim, "slushbox" and heavy weight aside...

And, as indicated by the "slushbox" remark, you have, on many occasions, repeatedly made remarks indicative of, shall we say, a much higher degree of enthusiasm towards the BMW marque. Which is fine, but when you on one hand bash Mercedes all the time and then say you're planning to purchase one, it does beg a question, which imo you really haven't adequately addressed.

Another red herring, unrelated to what we're discussing. However, I'll add my $0.02: the M3 has definitely been considered to be the benchmark in performance over the years, but beginning with the C55 (which hit the same laptime at Nurburgring as the M3), the gap has rapidly closed, to the point where AutoCar wrote:
Which would, along with numerous other reviews, seem to address the steering and "slushbox" issues you raised earlier.

It's a weakness.

Anyway, I like both cars, and although I'll probably retire from the HiPo cars after this one, if I were in the market, I'd give both of these cars a serious look and drive....both have things I like and dislike.

PC Valkyrie

There is NO adjustable suspension in the C63. The official press release does not mention anything about adjustable suspension, and neither does the C63 brochure from the international AMG website. If I recall, AMG decided against offerring any form of adjustable suspensioni to keep costs/price down. The C63 does not have the adjustable airmatic suspension like E/CLS 63 or the Active Body Control like the S/SL/CL AMG cars. Hell, I don't think it even has the agility control system of mechanically adjustable damping system found on the C300/C350 sport sedans.

The car tested by C&D did not have the performance package either, which would have included even more sporty suspension and 19" rims with lower profile tires......which likely means even worse ride quality, unless you're on smooth track.

diamondblak05

I concur with your statement. These 2 kids are arguing about something that is just "my words against your words". Both cars are not on our shores yet, so everything mentioned is just plain speculation. Let's keep the peace. Both cars are superb, ok kids?

Militant-Grunt

The handling test will come in the form of Nurburgring Lap times.

chiphomme

Yeah here and now you can find them. Two months ago you couldn't unless you paid above sticker (go read through the CLK63 Black forum). And all this is moot because my dealer couldn't get one easily and thats who I buy from.
And this wouldn't even be a talking point had you not basically called me a liar.


First off I have never said I disliked the C63 but is heavy, it does have an automatic tranny, and Mercedes quality has been an issue. Are you denying this? Sheez. How many times do I have to say that each car maker has its weaknesses and strengths. Those historically (well at least over the last decade) have been Mercedes' problems.
And I wouldn't have gone back to Mercedes had BMW not failed so miserably to impress me with this M6(what do I have to pay to get one that works.
I am still concerned with the weight, the autobox,and the quality but it appears Mercedes is making a more serious effort at a drivers car (read CLK63BS reviews-as well as C63). but I'll know for sure in a month or so

Improviz

As I said: I was curious as to why it's taking you so long to get a car that's sitting on dealers' lots.

Well, you were saying a bit more than that, more along the lines of the "slushbox" is uninvolving, poor steering, waay too heavy, terrible quality, etc..

No! For someone who is so fond of claiming that I'm failing to grasp your points, you sure are doing a fine job of failing to grasp mine....since implicit points don't seem to work, I'll say it explicitly: each of the above (now sugar-coated) criticisms can be levelled at the CLK63 BS.

Which is why I felt it begged the question "Why are you buying one?". You have, at last, addressed this:

Well, with all due respect to my AMG brethren, for the kind of wad a CLK63 BS will cost you, you could buy a brand new GT3--a fantastic drivers' car if ever there was one--*and* have enough left over to get a few year old S Class in excecllent condition for a daily driver, but as with automatics/manuals/SMGs, it all boils down to personal preference!

6.3AMG

Improviz, do you wait by your computer all day just waiting for a response?

chiphomme

No you weren't. You were mocking me. You couldn't even get the car right. Then in order to recover some sort of footing on a point that shouldn't even be debated you go digging through Autotrader. Whatever. I had a hell of time getting this limited production car from my dealer.



No I wasn't. You were reading into it too much.


This is just getting silly. You say I don't understand what youre saying and I say you don't get what I am stating.




Why? Because the CLK63BS has never been the point of this thread (neither has my M6). I have pointed those two vehicles out merely to show some sort of neutrality.





Very true. But I dont want a 911 and that car is even more difficult to get than my CLK63BS (but I haven't checked Autotrader to confirm).



Peace to you (and I'm not being sarcastic).

Improviz

I was curious, *and* I was mocking you.

Maybe, but your remarks (this and other prior remarks, such as the "AMGs will always be chasing M cars") seemed to be intended to denigrate the AMG cars. Perhaps you genuinely didn't mean them that way, but it's hard for me to imagine that you're incapable of seeing that others can, and have, taken them that way.

I was referring specifically to my point that the criticisms you've leveled at the C63 (and other Benzes) are equally applicable to the CLK63 BS.

Now, faced with this inherent contradiction, you've basically ceded that AMG is now (most of us would argue then as well, but whatever) building "serious drivers' cars".

Fine, although as I've said, imo the GT3 is a better "drivers' car" than the CLK63 BS (although I'd be perfectly happy with either, but as I said I'm retiring from the HiPo car genre after this one).

But the criticisms were made, and I was responding to them specifically.

Oh, come on, you know where I'm coming from here....I've already explained my reasoning, no need to rehash, but to me, leveling criticisms of Benzes which are all applicable to the CLK63 you're going to get, along with the SMG/paddle shifted auto hair splitting, looks like a double standard. People in glass houses (or who will, starting in November, reside in a glass house) shouldn't throw stones.

Anyway, I belive we've gotten about as far down the "mutual understanding" road as we're going to on this point, so I'd say let's just drop it.

You may be right, but at this point I'm too lazy to check! But in that price range, the GT3 is definitely (imo) the be-all, end-all of drivers' cars.

Likewise, and I'm not either.