P30 package in MY 2009?
03-13-2008, 11:21 PM
#26
MBWorld Fanatic!
People talk about this like there's only one side to the equation. My car has 738 ft-lbs so I know that there are times when a locking differential would be very nice. But AMGs are far from unmanageable without one. A little bit of restraint (and I mean a little) when starting from a dead stop, especially if the road is a bit bumpy, goes a long way. Yes, you have to learn when not to floor it depending on curve or bank or camber or surface, but that's part of learning your car. The ESP light means you screwed up, so you learn to drive never lighting it.
On the other hand, the locking diff will allow you to get a bit more torque down in the first 60 feet or when the surface is not ideal. But it comes at a significant cost in tire wear (which is not an abstract concept with any AMG) and handling balance. Yes, an LSD does not improve a car's handling. On the contrary, it increases both understeer (in the dry) and oversteer (in the wet) -- in other words, it makes handling twitchier. These are among the reasons that AMG has resisted widely using locking differentials. For people who track the cars and know what one does, an LSD can make a lot of sense. But for the 90% of us who use only these cars as daily drivers, it may turn out to be something you'd be better off without.
On the other hand, the locking diff will allow you to get a bit more torque down in the first 60 feet or when the surface is not ideal. But it comes at a significant cost in tire wear (which is not an abstract concept with any AMG) and handling balance. Yes, an LSD does not improve a car's handling. On the contrary, it increases both understeer (in the dry) and oversteer (in the wet) -- in other words, it makes handling twitchier. These are among the reasons that AMG has resisted widely using locking differentials. For people who track the cars and know what one does, an LSD can make a lot of sense. But for the 90% of us who use only these cars as daily drivers, it may turn out to be something you'd be better off without.
I should probably wait until some further reviews come in on the PP. Thanks for your offering your viewpoint. Interesting post.
03-14-2008, 12:48 AM
#27
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2002 BMW M3, MB C63 On Order
People talk about this like there's only one side to the equation. My car has 738 ft-lbs so I know that there are times when a locking differential would be very nice. But AMGs are far from unmanageable without one. A little bit of restraint (and I mean a little) when starting from a dead stop, especially if the road is a bit bumpy, goes a long way. Yes, you have to learn when not to floor it depending on curve or bank or camber or surface, but that's part of learning your car. The ESP light means you screwed up, so you learn to drive never lighting it.
On the other hand, the locking diff will allow you to get a bit more torque down in the first 60 feet or when the surface is not ideal. But it comes at a significant cost in tire wear (which is not an abstract concept with any AMG) and handling balance. Yes, an LSD does not improve a car's handling. On the contrary, it increases both understeer (in the dry) and oversteer (in the wet) -- in other words, it makes handling twitchier. These are among the reasons that AMG has resisted widely using locking differentials. For people who track the cars and know what one does, an LSD can make a lot of sense. But for the 90% of us who use only these cars as daily drivers, it may turn out to be something you'd be better off without.
On the other hand, the locking diff will allow you to get a bit more torque down in the first 60 feet or when the surface is not ideal. But it comes at a significant cost in tire wear (which is not an abstract concept with any AMG) and handling balance. Yes, an LSD does not improve a car's handling. On the contrary, it increases both understeer (in the dry) and oversteer (in the wet) -- in other words, it makes handling twitchier. These are among the reasons that AMG has resisted widely using locking differentials. For people who track the cars and know what one does, an LSD can make a lot of sense. But for the 90% of us who use only these cars as daily drivers, it may turn out to be something you'd be better off without.
We get precipitation over 60% of the days annually here.
I'm moving to the C63 from an E46 M3 that has an LSD that's been complimented (albeit nosiy) for it's minimal bias on steering.
For the first time in a long time I will not be driving a stick so I will have to get used to using only one foot again. (Those of you who have driven stick for a long time will fully appreciate this feeling).
The E46 M3 has a more linear ~255 lbs. of max torque compared to ~443 for the C63.
Maybe I'm just getting complacent due to all the technology that takes care of the driving for you these days. But eventually I will learn the personality of the C63 without LSD as we all do with our new cars.
03-14-2008, 05:59 PM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
An LSD increases traction. There is much more to "handling performance" than traction.
The way it increases traction will necessarily increase understeer and oversteer on acceleration and overrun, and the design of the LSD (clutch plate, viscous, 1-way, 2-way, 1.5-way, ...) will affect these characteristics. Design allows the engineer to tune the various handling anomalies versus traction. The most aggressive designs will go from understeer to oversteer very abruptly. Compromising traction gains can make the transition smoother. But denying that the traction gains come with affected handling is asking for a tour of a track wall.
There are lots of good explanations of the benefits of various LSD designs available. I recommend anyone with an LSD-equipped car to learn as much as possible about how they work to get the most out of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential
The way it increases traction will necessarily increase understeer and oversteer on acceleration and overrun, and the design of the LSD (clutch plate, viscous, 1-way, 2-way, 1.5-way, ...) will affect these characteristics. Design allows the engineer to tune the various handling anomalies versus traction. The most aggressive designs will go from understeer to oversteer very abruptly. Compromising traction gains can make the transition smoother. But denying that the traction gains come with affected handling is asking for a tour of a track wall.
There are lots of good explanations of the benefits of various LSD designs available. I recommend anyone with an LSD-equipped car to learn as much as possible about how they work to get the most out of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential
03-19-2008, 08:05 AM
#31
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c55amg & c63amg
