Strafe1

If you ordered your car from MB with an option of 50-60 more HP for $1500, would you choose it? I definitely would have. And that's just manufacturer claims. Dyno tested to prove it? Even better. To have 510-530 HP...the value is in the eye of the beholder as to how much it's worth. Track testing is even better, especially if you plan on racing it, obviously. But you don't have to track test the car to know that 510 HP is better than 451! Because we know that our 451 is better than 414 (in some of our competitors).

paulGT3

Shan
Yes you are wrong and I will be happy to correct you.
I come from the Porsche world. Just to name you two tuners just here in California are GMG racing in SoCal who race in the SCCA SPEED GT Manufacturers' Championship Presented by RACER Magazine and offer many different packages that are all tested at different tracks including willow springs a track I go to. Also Sharwerks in NoCal. They go to Laguna Seca for their testing or Thunder hill. They both go to the track on different 911 packages. GMG uses their real time racing that they do in the Speed world challege and some PCA races to tune their packages for their customers.
I was at the PCA event when James Sonofras of GMG torched the field after starting in last place, using their tuned cars.
I had bought pieces from both tuners for my GT3 including a tuned exhaust from Sharkwerks, and was very happy. All their pieces were race tested and were very reliable on the track.

Just to name you other tuners for Porsche who race and go to the track to test their products for their customers are The Racers Group, FambacherLoles, AWE and Manthey. I had the Manthey 410 hp kit for my 996 GT3 and was VERY happy.

So there are two local tuners to me (and many more off the top of my head) who go to the track test there packages and then make them available to their customers. Including suspension packages and driver training. Neither one go to the drag strip.
I am pretty sure I bought a Sports Sedan not a 1965 Plymouth Valiant
made specifically for the drag strip.
Here is the Link to where GMG secured the Manufacturers championship for Porsche:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/g...s-porsche.html

gravedgr

You may be speaking a different language here, Paul. I'm not sure if any of the MB tuners actually sponsor a race car or race their own.

Quicktwinturbo

FTW!

paulGT3

DOug, (does Evosport?)
I was speaking in general terms. . I have had 3 porsches and used tuners for all three. I include Mercedes in the general group of tuners and would like to see more testing than the drag strip. Porsche tuners use the track as a test bed. Porsches and AMGs are closer related as sports cars than Mercedes and Funny cars or dragsters. So I assume that like cars would be tested in like terms.
I would assume that Dinan for BMW tests at the track and they do support race teams on race tracks. I doubt they do most of their testing at drag strips.

Now having said all that I applaud Andy for give us all the data he has and is getting but still these are NOT dragsters and I intend to drive the car as intended, at the road track, not the drag strip.
Not that people havent taken 911 turbos, all kinds of AMGs, and everything else to the strip. Its just I dont see anyone going to the track to test as the cars were designed.

paulGT3

QuickTurbo
FambacherLoles is a GREAT Porsche tuner. They have done some things with Caymans that are unbelievable!!!
I really like Mantheymotors.com too. They did my 996 GT3 and it was a monster!!!!!

Again I applaud Andy for giving us data as soon as he get it. He knows where I am coming from and he is giving me some idea where he is coming from.
I am getting a better understanding of what he has to work with. He is obviously working his *** off and I dont see alot of other tuners coming in here at talking to us.

Quicktwinturbo

One of my friend is their race car driver I heard good things about their Canmans as well.. It's too bad they couldn't finish the one lap of america due to a "deer" accident

Do you still have ur GT3? I freakin love p cars

AMGC60-3

Oh yeah, Olaf Manthey has decades of experience in Porsche racing.tuning.I have seen him before at the "Ring" and that brings also a name that is now a big Ford Mustang tuner, Gerd Rouche who would drive a Mustang 5.0 in the DTM against MB, BMW, Audi and co.

AMGBeleza

I don't want to add any confusion to the discussion, but here is my take on tuners. Tuners all have different methods and different goals that they use and strive for when tuning. Some tuners are more focused on gains at the strip. Some are more focused on gains at the track. Some people (customers) get wrapped up in what they want their car to do or what their opinion of the performance arena of the car should be. However, if someone wants the best in the arena (strip, street or track) of their choice, they should focus on tuners that focus in that arena. I am sure there are Porsche tuners that focus their tuning for the 1/4 mile strip and shed loads and loads of straight line power from those engines. Consequently those straight line porsches probably don't make so much sense on the curvy track and could get lapped by a stock Audi TT. Same with BMW. You have DINAN as mentioned above which focus on power increases that are manageable with the suspension setup for handling all the turns.

Evosport, for example, provides a wide variety of tuning that focuses on a fast manageable car on the curvy track at high speeds while maximixing manageable power. Right now, MHP is focusing on extracting as much usable power from the C63 as he can period, but also provides and edge in the TCU tuning, which no doubt would help on quick shifting in the curves but really helps in the 1/4 mile time since we all know acceleration being equal, better faster shifts take the win.

Bottom line is all tuners have slightly different goals and even different abilities. They are going to focus their efforts as such. Products will vary, and I don't think we, as a group, should be criticizing their methods of testing without being clear on what their goal is. Just my thoughts.


edit: Just for the record, everything that I wrote above was examples. I am not attempting to generalize what any tuners, specifically Dinan, Evosport or MHP are trying to accomplish in their tuning efforts as they are the ones that know their goals and abilities. My point is that we should let the tuners do their job the way they want to do is based on their own goals. Ya know?

gravedgr

You would be wrong here. Porsches are not, and never have been, drag cars.

lomita

How much does it cost to go one or two seconds faster in the quarter?

AMGBeleza

Understand the opinion, I agree with the school of thought. But that's not my point, and people will do what they want to with their cars. You try taking this porsche out to a non drag track.

porsche drag car

MHP

FWIW guys I'll stack our v2 tune up against anyone else's regardless of genre of motorsports.

paulGT3

Doug,
there is a subculture of 911 Turbos that like to go to the drag strip.
Sharkwerks were trying to get the first 10 second TT. They suceeded. Since the turbo motor has so much room for tuners they are a favorite in that subculture of 911 drag racers.

c32AMG-DTM

-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAXQi...eature=related

c32AMG-DTM

Sharkwerks is just a reseller/distributor of Evolution Motorsports' products for high horsepower 996TT and 997TT. Might as well just go to evoms directly, unless Sharkwerks is local to you for install purposes (which it sounds like they would be, in your case).

ShanSL350

I think you have hit the nail on the head here.

Buying parts from a Motorsport Tuner that races cars in Championships or sponsor vehicles or races themselves is completely different.

I agree completely that its nice to know the parts are race tested and reliable but as mentioned all of the tuners i have seen for MB's do not do this.

To me and this is just my opinon ok, i want the car to pull well and have a noticeable performance increase over a stock car.
A track will not show me that because firstly the drivers will be different, and even if you use the same driver and do two runs, what i'd like to see is the difference in pulls, i.e how many car lengths it pull etc.

As i said this is just my opinion and what i am looking for.

paulGT3

SHan
dont you have some really nice curvy roads there in the UK?
I love watching TOP GEAR and they always find some nice roads north
of London.

ShanSL350

lots and lots Paul they dont know how to build them straight hahahaha

its lots of fun that way, spend as much time sideways as possible, road conditions permitting of course lol lol

dont get me wrong a track drive is great but unfortunately its almost one and half hours to my nearest track.

paulGT3

Shan were about do you live? I had a REALLY good friend from the Royal Air Force who retired and went back to the UK He lives in Manchester.
I really would like to visit.

AN hour and a half to your track is unfortunate. I live in the middle of the mojave desert and its still only 50 minutes to WIllow Springs.

AMGC60-3

A half hour down the autobahn is the "ring" for me.

gravedgr

I didn't say you can't drag race a Porsche, just that they are not drag cars. There used to be a guy who ran one of the stock categories in NHRA with an 80's Crysler K-car station wagon. He was in an 18 second category and oddly enough, did fairly well - a) going that slow, its easier to be more consistent; and b) its psychologically tough to watch a guy get 1/2 down the track before you get to go if you're running a faster car. Doesn't mean that K-car was built to be a drag car.

I'm aware. I'm also aware of how much easier it is to change the handling characteristics of a 911 vs. how much harder it is to add rwhp/rwtq. Tuning a turbo engine is completely different than turning a N/A 911 into a viable drag strip winner (especially the 2wd variants).

One of the most often quoted axioms of track driving is that if you want to go fast, the first and best mod is to tighten the nut behind the wheel. In other words, a driver with some training and experience will lap the same track much faster than the inexperienced/bad driver who has 100 more hp and torque. I don't think the same can be said for the drag strip.

This goes back to a conversation I was having with jrcart on the W211 forum. I would bet $100 (maybe $1000) that I could take my 911 S w/355 (crank) hp and lap most tracks faster than most E55 drivers in their 5-600 (crank) hp monsters. A lot of the difference is the car, but having some actual track time makes a ton of difference in track (and real world) situations.

paulGT3

Doug
1000%! correct the best dollar value for your car is driver training
bar none.

juicee63

I love it when guys who do not drag race bag on the sport and degrade the folks here for attempting to run Mercedes Benz vehicles on a drag strip.

The platform like it or not adapts well to drag racing and modification for a road course is completely different.

Many drivers cross over only to find the skill set does not translate well.

Many members here do both and mod the cars accordingly. Evosport CLK Black Series would offer your GT3 serious comp, most AMG cars do better in a straight line. Perhaps as the manufacturer becomes more focused on handling more road course types will buy.

The C63 in the right hands could be a nice SCCA car , but the types of mods Andy offers would be completely different aside perhaps from the TCU tune.

Since you are local I suggest before you knock drag racing head out to California Speedway, run the Oval then head over to the drag strip. You own a car capable of doing both pretty well!! Despite what you believe summit series NHRA racing offers a tremendous platform for folks to run what they brung and become very skilled as a result of many many years of practice.

In my last race , I faced a 50 year vet of NHRA driving his 1955 Chevy, guy beat me with a trick only a seasoned pro could pull off, next time perhaps will be different. He gave me a thumbs up and was eventually knocked out by another oldtimer, experience is king , the car and the tune is just a minute portion of the sport. The driver in both sports is all that really matters. My CLS 63 was put to sleep by a 1984 bmw 3 series at Spring Mountain, car had 180 hp.........Completely different sports

gravedgr

Juicee - I didn't see anyone denigrating the sport (granted I didn't go back and re-read every post). It just sounded like an apples to oranges discussion to me. I prefer road racing these days, but I grew up on NHRA. I spent many weekends as a kid being dragged from strip to strip as my dad wrenched for his cousin. He still calls to let me know when the Gatornationals are on.