C63 Guy

My $.02...

The C63 is a pretty new car and anyone that thinks there won't be a few hiccups in the tuning process is dreaming. Yeah, it's got the same bottom end hardware as the other 63s, but there are several differences in the software and exhaust that make it a completely unique product.

Like Brad O. said, they've only done like 30 cars. 30! Anyone who understands statistics knows that that's not a sample size that you can get any meaningful values from.

To <b>bigbodybeeenz</b> -My experience with EVOsport has been very positive overall. Yeah, they had to work on the ECU for a few hours to get it right, but my car was the first '09 they played with. They pushed the tune to the limits of what the car would let them without CELs and I think their handling of the situation was proper and professional considering that it was their FIRST ATTEMPT at an '09 car.

Dyno numbers are great for telling your friends what your car makes if you don't actually drive it like a hoon. Personally I'd rather drive hard and show people how fast it is than dyno it and tell people how powerful it is.

But like I said, that's just my $.02.

Josh

jrcart

First let me start out by saying Evosport is a great company, they built me the Ultimate street/Race car and their quality and customer service is second to none.

That being said, I don't think he "was a little quick in terms of posting an unflattering story" If I bought a product that was claimed and promised to make X rwhp and I was smart enough (which I am, I always run a baseline pre-mod) to run a baseline pre-mod dyno run as well as a post mod dyno run and the mod did not result in gains anywhere even close to the original claimed gain I would have reacted the same way. Bottom line is that there was a 30-40 whp discrepency in what what claimed and what was delivered. Brad is probably going to kill me but I have had both tunes in my car (Powerchip version 1) and there is/was no comparison, take a look at the at the current record holders, that chart should speak for itself. I was in discussions with the owner of Powerchip before electing to switch over the the MHP tune, after deciding to go with the MHP tune is when the owner of Powerchip miraculously came up with an "updated" version of the 63 tune for my car. I offered for him to send me his "updated" tune and even send have him send himself or one of his engineers to a neuteral 3rd party dyno for comparisons of his "updated" tune vs. the MHP tune. He pretty much declined the offer, only saying that he would consider it if I split the travel costs of his engineer (? WTF ?). At this point I could see the writting on the wall, faced with a head-to-head opportunity to prove his product he more or less declined.

I will make the offer again here out in public, if Powerchip wants to send me an ECU programmed with their most up to date offering for the 63 I will be more than happy to pay for dyno time and donate my car to the cause, and video tape the entire thing...but I have a feeling it ain't going to happen. I will also extend an invitation to anyone at Powerchip to drive my car and then insert their ECU and take it for a spin and then look me in the eye and tell me they can't feel a difference....again, ain't gonna happen.

Bottom line, if you guys are paying for your tune with your own hard earned money buy the MHP tune, I only put the best in my car(s), I was offered a FREE updated Powerchip tune for my car but choose to pay for the MHP tune instead, I think that should pretty much sum it up. Further more the MHP tune comes with a satisfaction promise...to date I have not heard of anyone asking Andy for their money back, but a couple people have been asking for their money back on the Powerchip tune.

...now I am going to wait for the ***** to hit the fan , but I feel I need to be open and honest so you guys get the best real world info available.

mthis

hey brad thanks for sending me money back

Sincity

Jrcart: I again appreciate your open candidness. I will have to say this does not look good if Powerchip does not "step up" to the challenge. Twice they have been called out by two separate parties. I think many here on MBworld would like to see this happen. Perhaps someone should contact Euro Car or Eurotuner as a mediator and do an article?

MHP

We have already been contacted by a European Car/Tuning Magazine and have agreed to participate in a tuner shootout. However last I had heard no one else threw their hat into the ring, and it's been months since we've heard anything back.

Sincity

Tick...tock..tick..tock.

otoupalik

Jim, I would never be upset with anyone for being honest and candid, but lets be REALLY honest. I was a party to all those emails too, and this is not quite what really transpired. If you are now willing to do a side by side comparison, that is great, but when that was offered, you were not willing. I realize that you like the MHP software, but there is no reason to continually publicly bash the product that we endorse. You were happy with this for a long time, and although you have moved to something different, I don't see the motivation to continue this tact.

I would love to see a head to head with your car, I will see what I can do.

Also, TWO people in the history of me selling Powerchip (5+ years) have ever asked for their money back.

1. C63: PC made a human error and re-flashed the car with the old file, not the updated one. We (evosport) offered to refund or re-flash and also to pay for incidental costs.

2. C63: No pre-dyno was done, and we have not seen the ECU yet. A refund was offered, but as we have not seen the ECU back, we cannot comment if the same problem as above occurred, it is my belief that it did. This ECU was flashed about 3-4 weeks ago. If it is the same problem, then it is a simple explanation. Again, a refund was offered without a problem (as discussed in this thread).

Further, if you read this site and others, such as M5 board, you will see issues with ALL tuners.

I contacted both of these magazines as well as one other (that is now going out of business). I have not had any reply.

Again, please read the details of the thread, or just read above in this post.

There are also plenty of happy customers with this software, some who have posted also in this thread.

Andy, to be fair, I first mentioned this on the forums, and I proactively contacted three mags to do this. It is a little misleading to attempt to make people believe that YOU are the only one who is willing and who is working for this. Maybe you do not know what is discussed between other tuners and editors, so that is understandable. However making authoritative statements like this is clearly an attempt to "leverage" your company against others, and specifically ours.

Thanks,
Brad

MHP

Brad,
Why the aggression towards me/us?

I simply answered a question that was posted by another member. I do not find my statements misleading in the slightest as the last time we were in contact with said publication no one else had taken them up on the offer. I also know that we were contacted over 6 months ago to do the story, and I have no idea how long you've been allegedly campaigning to have one written. In fact at this point I'd love to see some dated emails where you were making your pitch?
Of course I don't know the other tuners that were contacted or what they decided, how would I? The fact is I'm speaking on behalf of MHP because I know what was asked of us and what we agreed to do. If you have an issue with that, I don't know what to tell you.

As for me leveraging and making what you deem "authorative statements", our results speak for themselves and as I've said since day 1: I'll put our tuning up against ANYONE else's anytime. Nothing has changed in that regard.

If you're really all for competition as you claim you'll have no problem finding some cars to run against the MHP contingent at Jim's Jan 24th HRP track rental--halfway between MHP and Evosport geographically speaking.

Honestly if you were truly motivated you could buy a spare ECU or have "mthis" purchase it (based on the new memorandum from MB on spare ECUs) reflash it with your "latest and greatest" and put it up against our tune on the same dyno he tested your last tune to 390rw with.

Thanks
Andy

ps--I agree, check out M5board. We just broke the quickest/fastest M6 record on dragtimes by .3 of a second with our ECU/TCU tuning and far less mods than the next fastest car (which had cams, filters, pulleys, 3.91 diff, and a full Supersprint exhaust by comparison). Mario's/MHP tuned M6 has rpi scoops/filters, Evosport pulleys, Eisenhaus Meisterschaft exhaust (stock cats, no headers), 265/40/18 DRs and our complete driveline tuning.

jrcart

I am not trying to call anyone out or start any wars. I just want to inform others of my experiences with both products/companies. My experiences coupled with those of a couple other recent Powerchip tunes that were not what was advertised leads me to believe Powerchip is chasing their tails with the 63 tune. I highly doubt Powerchip would knowingly enter their tune in a head to head comparison against the MHP tune, like I said I made an offer to the president of Powerchip and he did not accept my offer. They only way to get this to happen woulf be for some of us to get together and do it ourselves. Whether we do it on my modded BS or a bone stock C63 or E63, it does not matter to me. There has been too much bickering, back stabbing and arguing going on in these forums regarding tunes as of late. We can put it all to rest with a simple head-to-head comparo. It would be nice if the different tuners stepped up and offered up a tune for comparison, but I have a feeling that would be like playing Russian Roulette for some of these tuners....why give people facts when we can snow them with myths and "past track record"? Without saying any names I know the tuners that would agree and I know the ones that would not be interested in playing our little game...here's a hint, the tuners headquarted in OH and I(you guys know who I'm talking about) would be game the Florida guys and the Aussies would take a pass...let's wait and see if we get any responces here.

jrcart

Brad, first of all I am not "continually publicly bashing a product you sell", I am simply stating some facts and my past experiences with the Powerchip tune. I complimented you and your company in my above post and you know I am already talking about sending my next project (SL 65 BS) to you guys in a couple months so I am in no way being critical of you or Evosport...you will never hear me bash you guys, you built me a monster and delivered on all of your promises (except an updated tune).

As for the e-mails, I am being 100% honest, and that is EXACTLY how things transpired, if you would like I can publish all of them for people to read...I have them all saved in a folder in my inbox. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions from what they read in those messages, please consult with Wayne at Powerchip, if he is open to me publishing his e-mail messages then I will certainly do so. Brad, for your reference, please take a look at the message I sent Wayne at Powerchip at 2:22 PM on Thursday October 30th, paragraph 3, this is where I offer up the head-to-head comparo...not the other way around. As for the head-to-head, It was I that offered this idea to Wayne at Powerchip but he is the one that declined, he wanted me to pay the traveling expenses of for him or one of his engineers...that sounded like an excuse to me. In a nutshell I told him to send me an ECU, I would get it VIN initialized, send it back to him so he could put their most up to date 63 tune and then I would go to a 3rd party shop with a Dyno (I even told him to research and find a shop) but he was insistant that I send him one of my existing 2 ECU's, both of which already have MHP software loaded onto them so that was not an option.

I already stated I am not trying to start any wars or pissing contest's, I am simply stating some facts for other MB World members. If Wayne at Powerchip wants to take me up on my offer let me know, my offer still stands.

Better yet, below is the e-mail I sent Wayne, I copied and pasted it from my outbox. I will not post any of Waynes private replies until I get permission to do so. Pay close attention to the portion in BOLD



Wayne,

You are talking way over my head here, I really did not follow much of what you were saying...sorry. I have not dyno tested my results for a number of reasons, 1st of which is that I do not have my Dymag wheels on the car right now, I do not have a Powerchip baseline dyno without Dymags, If I dyno the car the results will be useless since the Dymags made something like 25 hp on the Dyno. Another reason I am proably not going to worry about a dyno run is that I am having a new crank pulley installed as we speak, this is yet another variable that will show skewed results.

As for the TCU, I'm not really sure what can or can not be manipulated, all I know is that my car definetly now has matched rev downshifting, noticably faster shifting (less time between engagement) and much firmer shifts. The car breaks the tires loose between 1st and 2nd gear almost like I have a manual trans in the car.

Here is what I can offer you, If you want to ship me (loan me) a vin initialized ECU with your current latest and greatest 63 program I can take my car and have it dynoed by an un-interested 3rd party. You can even send out one of your reps or be present yourself to make sure the testing is done fairly and in an un-biased way. We can do a side by side dyno comparison of your updated tune vs. the MHP tune for my car. We can make sure the conditions are identical right down to the oil and intake runner temps in the car being the same. There is a great shop in my area with a climate controlled dyno room they even have humidifier/de-humidfier equipment. I think this would put an end to the wondering and speculation, there will most likely be a clear winner and loser.

Another way to do it would be to ship Corts car out to MIR in 2 weeks and we can line up head-to-head, I believe our cars are identical twins.

I'm 100% for this kind of a test, if you can prove to me that you have a better tune I will switch back to Powerchip in a heartbeat, and let the entire world kow about it, but for now I have to base my decisions on my old Powerchip tune which is clearly not as aggresive or powerfull as the one MHP provided me.


Jim

mthis

Brad i can solve this. i have 2 ecu's the one that i have on my car and the one thats coming in from MHP. if i send you my ecu that i have in my car will you tune it for free?(if your tune is beter i will pay for it) if so i can do this test and see whos tune is beter?
and whos tune makes more power in both 4th and 5th gear pulls. and then i will track both tunes. (giving 200mile per tune to adjust) and after im done if the i will keep the beter tune.

Q: MHP andy will you give me a refund if his tune is beter?

MHP

We're game and stand behind our 100% money back guarantee, so yes, absolutely!

Thanks
Andy

rarfinancial

I hear many stories like this outside the forum from members that just don't want to put the blame but are just not happy with a product. All the tunners here are never going to make 100% of the buyers happy, that's just Business, It's how the vendors handle the problem is what sets them apart. Any one can make hp gains but it takes a GREAT vendor to make sure that the cusomer is always right and 100% happy. I own a car dealership and have replace parts even trannys out of pocket just to make the consumer happy and it works, they tell everyone about the good you did not that the car broke down. They even will refer a friend or two so you have a chance to make up your loss. A to all the tunners here, keep up the great work guys. If we run into a problem just don't forget about us and we'll keep spending our $$ on your products.

MHP

Good post Rick!

55AMG-ARG

I can't believe some people are still trying to hide behind the "no baseline dyno was made"

Do you really think my car made stock numbers, but it actually gained + 50rwhp?

You will get my baseline dyno, and by no chance my ecu was flashed 8 weeks ago. (see bottom)

I know it's your product and you have to back it up, but dyno numbers speak for themselves.

Hopefuly, I will have my ecu back this week, and believe me, I CAN'T WAIT TO DYNO MY CAR AGAIN

otoupalik

Sir, nobody is hiding behind anything. I have stated multiple times that I believe there to be something very wrong with your file, and my belief is that it was flashed with the original version of the file (the same as Mthis), which is a 10-15hp gain. This would explain the lack of power gain as promised. Your file was flashed before Mthis, so it is very possible.

However, you must admit that you cannot judge gains without a baseline. Granted, the gains by all measures are not what were committed (again, once we have the file back we can see the problem), but nobody knows what the gains were or were not without the baseline. That is all that anyone is saying.

As was stated many times, we are sorry for your trouble and have done everything in our power (ok, except for Simon's not replying to your site PM's in your 4-6 hour expectation) to serve you and satisfy you.

Have a good day.

otoupalik

PM sent.

mthis

what does it matter what his baseline dyno did he dint make 435whp so ther for ther should be nothing to talk about baseline.

otoupalik

Well it matters to me as a diagnostic issue to determine what the problem was/is. It is my strong belief that there is something wrong with the file or the runs. If it is the file, and the original version was installed like in your case, then the car would show 10-15 hp gain. But we don't have a baseline to measure if that is the case.

As admitted and stipulated to from the beginning, there certainly seems to be a problem with his tune, but "what" the problem is matters a great deal to us at evosport. Even if he never wishes to use the Powerchip tune again, it is in the best interest of everyone to determine the failure. That is the only way to attempt to guarantee future users do not have the same problem.

Be it human error, a vehicle malfunction or technical error on the dyno operator's side - the more verifiable information that we can get, the better armed we are to rectify not just this customer's issues, but any potential future issue as well. It would be easy to just reflash and be done, but that is not the way we operate. We will be investigating this until we have a reasonable conclusion as to "why" and "how" this occurred - like we did with yours.

Thanks
Brad

jrcart

Actually a baseline is very important, all dynos read differently and the actual peak numbers should nver be compared when different dynos are used, you should look at the delta or the percentage of increase over baseline.

Example. Shop A might have a baseline of 375 rwhp and a modded figure of 400 rwhp.

Shop B might have a baseline figure of 360 rwhp and a modded figure of 380rwhp.....so which one is accurate? who is lying? The answer is neither of them are lying, they are both accurate, you could see a variance that great from different shops/tuners, especially if they are using different brands of dynos or different models of dynos. Pay attention to the percentages of gains, those should be very close not matter what, if they are not then somebody is telling a fib.

You also need to make sure the correction factors and smoothing are set to the same parameters and also make sur eyou are looking at the same gear pulls, some shops prefer 4th gear pulls others prefer 5th gear pulls...you should request both whenever possible.

That is why it is important to always have you car baseline dynoed before sending it out for mods, don't rely on the shop doing the tuning to provide you with these figures. Without a baseline you really don't have a leg to stand on in an argument like this.

I will say that I had my car basline dynoed before shipping it to Evosport last winter and I also had it dynoed within a couple days of me getting it back on the very same dyno I had a baseline run, just to keep everyone honest. I am happy to report back that the numbers I got were well inline with the numbers Evosport claimed and posted. I don't think Evosport would intentially try to screw with any numbers, they would have nothing to gain from such a practice because they know it is as easy as a trip to your local dyno and they would be outed.

Again, I urge all of you to spend a couple hundred extra buck and get baseline runs done before ANY mods, this will show you what your gains were and it will keep everyone honest.

blownS

I agree with everything you've said. However, it seems to me that it will be nearly impossible to get an accurate delta with an ECU reflash b/c the before and after dynos cannot be done on the same day. As I understand it, the reflashed ECU (regardless of tuner) requires a 200 mile "break-in" period. Thus, the best u could do is get a baseline and then, 200 miles (and x days) later, go back to the same shop, on the same dyno, and re-dyno.

MHP

That is correct, which is why we insist on SAE correction factors and standardized procedures (ie same gear, operator, method testing) to take care of the differences presented by varying air quality.

MB_Forever

I understand the ECU adaptations issue with a new flash, but honestly, I think one can still see preliminary difference in the tunes on the dyno even right after a flash. I've seen it personally with my C32, after different tunes, there were noticeably different results. And although the numbers were all over the place, one can at least obtain some insightful information. But I do agree that for full potential, one needs some miles on the ECU (at least 50).

scarbrtj

I'm not really unbiased here, as I have the MHP tune. But I wonder why everyone perseverates over the HP increases only in our never-ending "tuning debates" but no one is talking about the TCU tune that MHP offers? I wonder what makes MHP "so special" (not being sarcastic here) as to offer this but no one else does? I mean, heck, not even good 'ol RENNtech has the TCU option. I would pay, conservatively, $1500 just for the improvement in my shifts (manual and automatic) I got from the TCU upgrade. (I dyno'd pre-upgrade, but just got my car back Saturday and haven't been able to take her back in as of yet.) "Unconditional guarantee" is what I'll be thinking if I don't see a nice gain in HP. I really have no doubt MHP will honor that if I'm not happy, so I'm not sweating it.

All our friendly neighborhood tuners learned nothing from the presidential campaigns?! When you "go negative" you just can't win. Keep it positive, and objective. You're all pouring your hearts and souls into your products... which is appreciated. Give the objective data, stick behind your products, offer support, offer refunds to the *******s and the angels... we all come out winners. "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" as old Ben Franklin used to say.