I went Kleemann
02-22-2009, 07:18 PM
#26
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I could care less if you share my opinions. Your debate was regarding performance mods and the trickle down of warranty coverage.
I am quite familiar with the Magnuson-Moss Act. We are not talking about your cigarette lighter that has stopped working here from a mod that you have done to your engine.
Let's play this out:
I have my exhaust system, ECU and TCU modified with Renntech parts and a small 100 HP shot of NOS. I take my 7 month old C63 to a deserted parking lot to practice launches for my next trip to the drag strip and blow up my differential.
Warranty Claim for the 7 month old differential? I think not (unless perhaps you have a mod friendly dealer.....)
You are telling me that they are going to fix my differential under warrany since I have not modified that particular part?
If I think that my differential was failing anyway before my 100 shot of NOS, it is going to be up to me to prove that it had an issue and that the issue was not caused by the additional stress that my modifications put on the car.
You are seriously joking if you think that by walking into a dealer that has denied a warranty claim over a mod that by saying the magic words of " Magnuson-Moss Act" I have a bridge to sell you.
Let me tell you how it would go. You lawyer up, your dealer and MBUSA lawyer up and in 7 years you still pay for your blown differential and all the legal fees.
My understanding is that the Magnuson-Moss Act was put in place to stop dealers from denials of warranty claims for items not related to modified parts as in my cigarette lighter example at the beginning.
As you , only trying to help educate everyone......
I am quite familiar with the Magnuson-Moss Act. We are not talking about your cigarette lighter that has stopped working here from a mod that you have done to your engine.
Let's play this out:
I have my exhaust system, ECU and TCU modified with Renntech parts and a small 100 HP shot of NOS. I take my 7 month old C63 to a deserted parking lot to practice launches for my next trip to the drag strip and blow up my differential.
Warranty Claim for the 7 month old differential? I think not (unless perhaps you have a mod friendly dealer.....)
You are telling me that they are going to fix my differential under warrany since I have not modified that particular part?
If I think that my differential was failing anyway before my 100 shot of NOS, it is going to be up to me to prove that it had an issue and that the issue was not caused by the additional stress that my modifications put on the car.
You are seriously joking if you think that by walking into a dealer that has denied a warranty claim over a mod that by saying the magic words of " Magnuson-Moss Act" I have a bridge to sell you.
Let me tell you how it would go. You lawyer up, your dealer and MBUSA lawyer up and in 7 years you still pay for your blown differential and all the legal fees.
My understanding is that the Magnuson-Moss Act was put in place to stop dealers from denials of warranty claims for items not related to modified parts as in my cigarette lighter example at the beginning.
As you , only trying to help educate everyone......
Sounds as if you have quite the crystal ball. Wonder how many people have been educated versus simply amused. I for one, am the latter.
02-22-2009, 08:26 PM
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CLK Black
But I will admit that I laughed my a$$ off when I read your post asking the mods to ban another memeber for giving his opinion and how you blew it all out of proportion.
The part that was most amusing was when you told them to "please consider having him make an apology to the MBWorld audience before his hiatus."
Can't we all just love our C63's and get along
02-22-2009, 09:09 PM
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No emotion in my last posts, just giving a differing opinion.
But I will admit that I laughed my a$$ off when I read your post asking the mods to ban another memeber for giving his opinion and how you blew it all out of proportion.
The part that was most amusing was when you told them to "please consider having him make an apology to the MBWorld audience before his hiatus."
Can't we all just love our C63's and get along
But I will admit that I laughed my a$$ off when I read your post asking the mods to ban another memeber for giving his opinion and how you blew it all out of proportion.
The part that was most amusing was when you told them to "please consider having him make an apology to the MBWorld audience before his hiatus."
Can't we all just love our C63's and get along
If the following are the outcomes of this thread so far, I'll be happy:
* Vendors take pause and become a bit more careful not to lob false or misleading informatoin on this forum
* Anyone considering a tune is a bit more educated
* Other people were laughing their a$$es off (hopefully more at you, than me, but I'll take a few jabs)
Henceforth I hope to be reporting on my mods (original thread intent).
02-23-2009, 12:37 AM
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Well here in Canada, modifying your car WILL void your warranty by Mercedes Benz warranty standards. As mentioned above, service managers do warn, however mention that if you have enough cash to buy an AMG then mod it, you must of course have the means to fix it, because modifying your AMG beyond the factory setting is NOT covered by warranty.
From my understanding of the rules of trade and service that Mercedes-Benz dealerships abide by, once a dealer decides to service your modified AMG, they are breaking the very rules that they have agreed to in order to have a dealership with a service center.
Also on the technical note, after discussing the ins and outs of the C63 as well as other AMG vehicles by a few senior Mercedes technicians and mechanics, I was informed that once the ECU of the vehicle is removed without the corporate directive and permission of Mercedes Benz HQ, depending on the circumstance that an ECU of a car requires to be changed, the removal of the ECU is recorded on the Log file of the onboard computer, and that automatically voids your warranty.
Of course that is the story here in Canada, but as said before, I am sure even here in Canada, if you know the right people and the right place, you can always have your car services without any problems.
From my understanding of the rules of trade and service that Mercedes-Benz dealerships abide by, once a dealer decides to service your modified AMG, they are breaking the very rules that they have agreed to in order to have a dealership with a service center.
Also on the technical note, after discussing the ins and outs of the C63 as well as other AMG vehicles by a few senior Mercedes technicians and mechanics, I was informed that once the ECU of the vehicle is removed without the corporate directive and permission of Mercedes Benz HQ, depending on the circumstance that an ECU of a car requires to be changed, the removal of the ECU is recorded on the Log file of the onboard computer, and that automatically voids your warranty.
Of course that is the story here in Canada, but as said before, I am sure even here in Canada, if you know the right people and the right place, you can always have your car services without any problems.
02-23-2009, 03:04 AM
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'08 C63 AMG (turned in for lease)
All:
I was certain this post would have been delivered in the summer (or later). I've only had my C63 for a few months now.
But I couldn't help it. The car being de-tuned from the factory and having the restricted exhaust was just nagging at me. So....
I went with Kleemann per the following package:
63-K2: K1 + a set of high flow exhaust manifolds and downpipes with steel sport catalysts. Up to 560 HP and 700Nm (519lb-ft) of torque.
K1 is their ECU tune.
I should have my car finished in about 1 week. Vids & my commentary will follow in this thread.
Cheers
I was certain this post would have been delivered in the summer (or later). I've only had my C63 for a few months now.
But I couldn't help it. The car being de-tuned from the factory and having the restricted exhaust was just nagging at me. So....
I went with Kleemann per the following package:
63-K2: K1 + a set of high flow exhaust manifolds and downpipes with steel sport catalysts. Up to 560 HP and 700Nm (519lb-ft) of torque.
K1 is their ECU tune.
I should have my car finished in about 1 week. Vids & my commentary will follow in this thread.
Cheers
02-23-2009, 10:03 AM
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Perhaps you will be more discerning next time you post on this forum. If you re-read your original post in this thread, you may agree at the very least, it's incomplete information.
Perhaps you will be more discerning next time you post on this forum. If you re-read your original post in this thread, you may agree at the very least, it's incomplete information.
02-23-2009, 11:54 AM
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Kevin,
Most of us on (W204) forum appreciate your input. As far as our Mod survey, the popular vote/concern is the 4yr/50K warranty... This morning I called my AMG performance center (which at this point is Not involved in Mods but might be in the near future) Ray Catena Management stated, if an AMG car or
something specifically fails on the engine or drive train. Prior to repair the dealership is required by MBUSA to investigate for any upgrade/ Mods performed prior to failure, if so then the warranty will be Null Void... Unless performed by a MB dealership of which, I'm still trying to attain who (which Dealership?) would be responsible if a Mod'd engine /drivetrain failure occurs...
Kevin,
Most of us on (W204) forum appreciate your input. As far as our Mod survey, the popular vote/concern is the 4yr/50K warranty... This morning I called my AMG performance center (which at this point is Not involved in Mods but might be in the near future) Ray Catena Management stated, if an AMG car or
something specifically fails on the engine or drive train. Prior to repair the dealership is required by MBUSA to investigate for any upgrade/ Mods performed prior to failure, if so then the warranty will be Null Void... Unless performed by a MB dealership of which, I'm still trying to attain who (which Dealership?) would be responsible if a Mod'd engine /drivetrain failure occurs...
02-23-2009, 11:59 AM
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id be very interested to see what MB-USA's course of action would be in the event of a blown/damaged modified engine -
I for one am not modding my car other than wheels, but thats because I dont need the extra power - 451 is plenty to me
its always been my understanding that dealers will deny coverage of mod's they dont do - but this is just based on my history with BMW and only certifying Dinan mod's
I for one would get it in writing from a service manager if you were told they would cover it ... only because if something happens, as luck would have it - the guy who told you it would be covered will no longer be there
I for one am not modding my car other than wheels, but thats because I dont need the extra power - 451 is plenty to me
its always been my understanding that dealers will deny coverage of mod's they dont do - but this is just based on my history with BMW and only certifying Dinan mod's
I for one would get it in writing from a service manager if you were told they would cover it ... only because if something happens, as luck would have it - the guy who told you it would be covered will no longer be there
02-23-2009, 12:10 PM
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02-23-2009, 01:03 PM
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02-23-2009, 01:23 PM
#37
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Kevin:
I do not appreciate what I believe to be propagating false and misleading information. I believe you are misinforming MBWorld readers in order to scare them into driving business in your direction.
You stated, "be careful on having an independent do work, if you have independent do it and it goes to dealer you will get a status 8!". This is a false statement for the type of mods we're discussing here, and if it ever happened, the status 8 was not warranted and the consumer would have cause for suit.
Mods--please ban or suspend mbpro.
As I'm sure you know Kevin, a status 8 is for a car that has been wrecked and rebuilt, flooded or reconstructed in some fashion. If a dealer status 8s a car it is for something huge, not headers and an ECU flash. Removal of an engine and doing a bore/stroke change might warrant status 8 because one has completely changed the engine internally. Status 8 also requires Mercedes Benz to send out the Service and Parts Operations Manager or Tech field rep to verify and make the car status 8. Of course any modified parts are not covered under warranty, but everything else is.
Mods--again, I believe mbpro here is purposely and wantonly misleading this forum's members in order to scare them into doing business with MB of Buckhead, versus what may be an alternative of a qualified independent. In the event you choose to suspend Kevin, please consider having him make an apology to the MBWorld audience before his hiatus.
As per my poll on why people have not done an ECU flash, "concerned about warranty" tops the list. Kevin seems to be attempting to capitalize on these fears.
I do not appreciate what I believe to be propagating false and misleading information. I believe you are misinforming MBWorld readers in order to scare them into driving business in your direction.
You stated, "be careful on having an independent do work, if you have independent do it and it goes to dealer you will get a status 8!". This is a false statement for the type of mods we're discussing here, and if it ever happened, the status 8 was not warranted and the consumer would have cause for suit.
Mods--please ban or suspend mbpro.
As I'm sure you know Kevin, a status 8 is for a car that has been wrecked and rebuilt, flooded or reconstructed in some fashion. If a dealer status 8s a car it is for something huge, not headers and an ECU flash. Removal of an engine and doing a bore/stroke change might warrant status 8 because one has completely changed the engine internally. Status 8 also requires Mercedes Benz to send out the Service and Parts Operations Manager or Tech field rep to verify and make the car status 8. Of course any modified parts are not covered under warranty, but everything else is.
Mods--again, I believe mbpro here is purposely and wantonly misleading this forum's members in order to scare them into doing business with MB of Buckhead, versus what may be an alternative of a qualified independent. In the event you choose to suspend Kevin, please consider having him make an apology to the MBWorld audience before his hiatus.
As per my poll on why people have not done an ECU flash, "concerned about warranty" tops the list. Kevin seems to be attempting to capitalize on these fears.
Many times people dont chose to do this to customers until bad things happen but that is the rule with MB.
He is not tying to do anything dishonest or plug his services. He is telling you how to avoid getting your warranty voided. How about a thanks for the heads up?
Oh I know everyone here thinks modded cars are fully warranted. Until it blows up.... then these treads show up where people have status 8 and a bill for 30k to fix it.
Funny how it all works?
02-23-2009, 01:26 PM
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added info
Pretty much another post summed it up. Status 8 is something that can be thrown on a car relatively easy from the dealers. It is not restricted to a wrecked/rebuilt/salvage, flooded or reconstructed (not exactly sure what you mean here) car.
The point being is that there is a major difference between a mod friendly dealer and a unfriendly one. If you still want to maintain some form of your warranty it would be beneficial for you to make sure your dealer is the first.
While the Magnusson/Moss act helps the car owner it is still a huge pain in the *** to fight a status 8. The amount of time and effort wasted would be much better put to use finding a mod friendly dealer.
BTW when we are talking about a mod friendly dealer we really are also talking about your SA. He/She is the KEY person to ensure a mod friendly dealer.
Also, as a side note, I have yet to hear of a vehicle that has had a Status 8 REMOVED.
A thanks to Mbbpro is in order.
The point being is that there is a major difference between a mod friendly dealer and a unfriendly one. If you still want to maintain some form of your warranty it would be beneficial for you to make sure your dealer is the first.
While the Magnusson/Moss act helps the car owner it is still a huge pain in the *** to fight a status 8. The amount of time and effort wasted would be much better put to use finding a mod friendly dealer.
BTW when we are talking about a mod friendly dealer we really are also talking about your SA. He/She is the KEY person to ensure a mod friendly dealer.
Also, as a side note, I have yet to hear of a vehicle that has had a Status 8 REMOVED.
A thanks to Mbbpro is in order.
Last edited by SLK55R; 02-23-2009 at 01:28 PM.
02-23-2009, 01:35 PM
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The point being is that there is a major difference between a mod friendly dealer and a unfriendly one. If you still want to maintain some form of your warranty it would be beneficial for you to make sure your dealer is the first.
The amount of time and effort wasted would be much better put to use finding a mod friendly dealer.
BTW when we are talking about a mod friendly dealer we really are also talking about your SA. He/She is the KEY person to ensure a mod friendly dealer.
The amount of time and effort wasted would be much better put to use finding a mod friendly dealer.
BTW when we are talking about a mod friendly dealer we really are also talking about your SA. He/She is the KEY person to ensure a mod friendly dealer.
02-23-2009, 01:37 PM
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I dont want to be rude but people need to realize what happens when you modify the car. I know its likely not to fail and even if so its not likely the mods caused it. But legally they cant back cars being tuned by 3rd parties. If they did everyone would just go buck wild and send the bill to MBUSA. There is a chance that your warranty could end up voided and its good to keep that in mind.
Also MB is getting EXTREMELY tight with this clause. They have all sorts of new more detailed codes to mark in files. They have gotten sick and tired of replacing motors in modded cars and they also are tired of crooked buy backs. Things like intentionally generated faults with external influence.
If the service tech notices ANY modification to the vehicle he is by rule required to mark the file, place it as status 8, and then communicate with the SPOM. This is in addition to SLK55's info on salvage, fire, crash-repaired, theft etc....
02-23-2009, 01:42 PM
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Once again, I must agree 100% with above statements... Mod at your own risk, if you feel the need to do so 
I was also advised by the dealership, if when they do decide to start doing Mods it will most likely come with a hefty premium. This is why most dealers don't want to do it, it would make $ sense for the customer to buy a car with close to the Mod'ed spec stock already on the car.
I was also advised by the dealership, if when they do decide to start doing Mods it will most likely come with a hefty premium. This is why most dealers don't want to do it, it would make $ sense for the customer to buy a car with close to the Mod'ed spec stock already on the car.
02-23-2009, 01:42 PM
#42
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ALL very valid points. Your S/A and Shop Foreman are your 2 best liaisons at any dealership. Especially when doing Mod's and keeping your warranty intact. Here in Canada I have not had any warranty issue declined on either my C55 or C63 and have kept both parties fully involved and aware of any Mod's completed.
Of course if the tech never says anything no one will ever know. Trouble is that anytime "motor" work is required on an AMG model, the SPOM is required to visit the car and the form for motor replacement questions the tech as to if it has any modifications (and it tells him where to look).
Can you blame MB for trying to protect itself?
02-23-2009, 01:52 PM
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ALL very valid points. Your S/A and Shop Foreman are your 2 best liaisons at any dealership. Especially when doing Mod's and keeping your warranty intact. Here in Canada I have not had any warranty issue declined on either my C55 or C63 and have kept both parties fully involved and aware of any Mod's completed.
02-23-2009, 02:03 PM
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I agree but there seems to be a tolerance in the Toronto market for minor tuning. ie: ECU's, Air-boxes and Headers have shown to be acceptable. In a recent conversation with the Dealer Principle, Sales Manager, Shop Forman and Service Manger at the dealership I use and prior to doing any of my current Mod's (all in the same room at the same time at the GLK Launch) I raised the very question of what I could do to my C63 and maintain the integrity of the warranty. All above Mod's were deemed acceptable by MB Canada. Beyond that I would have to agree your on your own....
02-23-2009, 02:26 PM
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I'd trust MBUSA as far as I could throw them, especially in this economy. The real test would be to find someone that actually had a large $ problem and MB over looked the Mod.
As I stated earlier, I was advised by an AMG SVC Mngr MBUSA. They look at all AMG cars very closely (for Mods) if when there is a malfunction in the engine and or drive train costing many $ to fix. I've also heard that dealers after determining engine/drive train failure before $ payout will be required to upload or do a software dump of the ECU. At which point we all know what can happen
As I stated earlier, I was advised by an AMG SVC Mngr MBUSA. They look at all AMG cars very closely (for Mods) if when there is a malfunction in the engine and or drive train costing many $ to fix. I've also heard that dealers after determining engine/drive train failure before $ payout will be required to upload or do a software dump of the ECU. At which point we all know what can happen
02-23-2009, 02:42 PM
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I agree but there seems to be a tolerance in the Toronto market for minor tuning. ie: ECU's, Air-boxes and Headers have shown to be acceptable. In a recent conversation with the Dealer Principle, Sales Manager, Shop Forman and Service Manger at the dealership I use and prior to doing any of my current Mod's (all in the same room at the same time at the GLK Launch) I raised the very question of what I could do to my C63 and maintain the integrity of the warranty. All above Mod's were deemed acceptable by MB Canada. Beyond that I would have to agree your on your own....
02-23-2009, 04:43 PM
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If you're considering doing headers and an ECU mod on your C63, here's a summary of findings from this thread from my perspective:
1) Research which tuning company best fits your needs.
2) Confirm with your MB dealer that the mods you selected will not be a problem for them. Most likely they won't put anything in writing, though if you can get that, great. If not, handshakes can and still do mean something. If you're not comfortable with that, stop here and proceed no further.
3) Ensure you're getting the best deal for the parts you're ordering (you can go direct or through an authorized reseller)
4) Research & select the best mechanic to install your mods (or do it yourself if you're capable). If you have a MB dealer that is an authorized reseller and installer, it might make sense to use them, but you'll pay a great deal. If you have an independent mechanic that you trust, you might consider using them to save some $$ assuming you get a quality job.
5) While the car is still on the lift (if possible), review the install and check for quality welds, etc.
6) Have fun with it
7) If a problem arises, there are laws on your side, and the burden of proof is on Mercedes, not you. However, I suspect that Mercedes has a tad more money than most individuals, so you'll likely have hefty legal bills if it goes that far. Again, see #2. If your MB is friendly with the mods, the risk is less (but not zero).
1) Research which tuning company best fits your needs.
2) Confirm with your MB dealer that the mods you selected will not be a problem for them. Most likely they won't put anything in writing, though if you can get that, great. If not, handshakes can and still do mean something. If you're not comfortable with that, stop here and proceed no further.
3) Ensure you're getting the best deal for the parts you're ordering (you can go direct or through an authorized reseller)
4) Research & select the best mechanic to install your mods (or do it yourself if you're capable). If you have a MB dealer that is an authorized reseller and installer, it might make sense to use them, but you'll pay a great deal. If you have an independent mechanic that you trust, you might consider using them to save some $$ assuming you get a quality job.
5) While the car is still on the lift (if possible), review the install and check for quality welds, etc.
6) Have fun with it
7) If a problem arises, there are laws on your side, and the burden of proof is on Mercedes, not you. However, I suspect that Mercedes has a tad more money than most individuals, so you'll likely have hefty legal bills if it goes that far. Again, see #2. If your MB is friendly with the mods, the risk is less (but not zero).
Last edited by taylorcoleman; 02-23-2009 at 04:52 PM. Reason: typos
02-24-2009, 01:10 AM
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I agree but there seems to be a tolerance in the Toronto market for minor tuning. ie: ECU's, Air-boxes and Headers have shown to be acceptable. In a recent conversation with the Dealer Principle, Sales Manager, Shop Forman and Service Manger at the dealership I use and prior to doing any of my current Mod's (all in the same room at the same time at the GLK Launch) I raised the very question of what I could do to my C63 and maintain the integrity of the warranty. All above Mod's were deemed acceptable by MB Canada. Beyond that I would have to agree your on your own....
02-25-2009, 10:26 AM
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Kevin,
I believe your company's self promotion is more appropriate as a sponsor on this forum. Why don't you pony up some $ as an MBWorld sponsor?
Kevin,
I believe your company's self promotion is more appropriate as a sponsor on this forum. Why don't you pony up some $ as an MBWorld sponsor?
02-27-2009, 12:26 PM
#50
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As Barry stated above, check with your dealer. My dealer OK'd my Kleeman mods, and they indicated Renntech mods are also supported. The MB dealer 50 miles south of me also supports the mods. My service manager has techs on staff that are savvy with these mods and are knowledgeable about safe/compliant mods. So it definitely depends on a qualified service dept.
AMG Dictators example above is too extreme, especially with the NOS, an obvious red flag. Again, time tested and proven mod dealers + qualified service dealer is a must!
AMG Dictators example above is too extreme, especially with the NOS, an obvious red flag. Again, time tested and proven mod dealers + qualified service dealer is a must!
