taylorcoleman

All:

I was certain this post would have been delivered in the summer (or later). I've only had my C63 for a few months now.

But I couldn't help it. The car being de-tuned from the factory and having the restricted exhaust was just nagging at me. So....

I went with Kleemann per the following package:

63-K2: K1 + a set of high flow exhaust manifolds and downpipes with steel sport catalysts. Up to 560 HP and 700Nm (519lb-ft) of torque.

K1 is their ECU tune.

I should have my car finished in about 1 week. Vids & my commentary will follow in this thread.

Cheers

AMGC60-3

Oh I cant wait, Kleeman is a great company.

NORTH 44 C63

Great choice. You can't go wrong with Kleemann. Ran their ECU in my C55 and was very happy.

Shellbmb

Is a local shop doing it for you or the dealer? Did you ask about any warranty issues because that was my vote why I'm not doing any ECU tune so far.

dlbello

Glock Guru

Congrats. Keep us posted.

taylorcoleman

Deleted by moderator

Kevin:

I do not appreciate what I believe to be propagating false and misleading information. I believe you are misinforming MBWorld readers in order to scare them into driving business in your direction.

You stated, "be careful on having an independent do work, if you have independent do it and it goes to dealer you will get a status 8!". This is a false statement for the type of mods we're discussing here, and if it ever happened, the status 8 was not warranted and the consumer would have cause for suit.

Mods--please ban or suspend Kevin.

As I'm sure you know Kevin, a status 8 is for a car that has been wrecked and rebuilt, flooded or reconstructed in some fashion. If a dealer status 8s a car it is for something huge, not headers and an ECU flash. Removal of an engine and doing a bore/stroke change might warrant status 8 because one has completely changed the engine internally. Status 8 also requires Mercedes Benz to send out the Service and Parts Operations Manager or Tech field rep to verify and make the car status 8. Of course any modified parts are not covered under warranty, but everything else is.

Mods--again, I believe Kevin here is purposely and wantonly misleading this forum's members in order to scare them into doing business with MB, versus what may be an alternative of a qualified independent. In the event you choose to suspend Kevin, please consider having him make an apology to the MBWorld audience before his hiatus.

As per my poll on why people have not done an ECU flash, "concerned about warranty" tops the list. Kevin seems to be attempting to capitalize on these fears.

cdd

I'm not an expert on the TOU, but I think commercial posts as a non-sponsor are prohibited.

peet

Mod lock of user in 5..4..3..2..

AMG Dictator

Did I miss something? Isn't he kind of right?

Lew L

Based on my first-hand experience, I don't feel that Kevin's post was misleading. One of my local MB dealers said that they would not install headers and that if I had an independent do it that it very well might void my entire driveline warranty. We talked about it further as this seemed extreme especially if any engine failure/damage was unrelated to the mods. He said that they would have to make a decision when and if the incident occured, but he repeated that he wanted to be clear up front that the dealer may determine that the entire warranty was voided. A second local dealer took a similar position initially as well, but softened up a bit after further discussion. However, the second dealer would not guaranty that installing aftermarket headers would not create a warranty issue, but seemed to be a little more comfortable that it might not. It is a dealer-by-dealer determination. (The delares were less concerned with an ECU reflash, but I was worried that they might flash-back my reflash.)

Furthermore, a very good friend of mine is a certified collision repair specialist for Mercedes. He is very familiar with their warranty and repair procedures. He told me that you do not want a dealer that is not familiar with the mods to note in the MBUSA data base that modifications have been done. He said that that notation will follow the car for its life. (I guess it's similar to the old high school days when someting might go on your "permanent record.") He didn't use the term "status 8", but the concept that described sounded similar.

Yes, denial of a warranty claim may be grounds for a lawsuit. I am lawyer and therefore I have an idea of what litigation costs in time, money and headache. It's cold comfort to know that you can sue to have your warranty enforced. It is much better to know that you will not have a problem from the get-go.

In the interests of full disclosure, as many of you know, I am a happy MB Buckhead customer. However, I am not defending any posts which may have violated the forum rules regarding what commercial businesses may and may not post. But I have first hand experience that some dealers do not automatically feel that these mods will not provide grounds for them to deny a warranty claim. I absolutely disagree with their position on this issue, but nonetheless some of them do take that position. Therefore, being able to avoid this issue in the first place by having a dealer install these items and agree to back me up on warranty issues was an important consideration.

c32AMG-DTM

I do not believe Kevin is throwing around maliciously false or misleading information; the only minor clarification I would suggest is that he should have stated "it depends on the dealer in question" - read the archives, if you wish, especially the w211 AMG forum... there are lots of tales regarding bolt-on mods causing vehicles to get Status 8 flagged by mod-unfriendly MB dealers. Kevin mentions elsewhere that they are the largest Kleemann dealer in America, in addition to being a relatively large MB dealer - I think his opinion on the matter should be considered; from there, people can weigh the pro's and con's of a MB install and make an informed decision.

Think about it - the headers will be a dead giveaway that the car is modified. STAR would be able to tell that the ECU is not stock. If the engine happened to have a defective piston, cylinder head, camshaft, etc. from the factory - if the car's bone stock, hassle-free warrany repair would be the result, no problem. If the ECU's been modified with a more aggressive tune and consequently significantly higher engine output as a result, depending on the dealership, you might fight an uphill battle to get the same repair done for free under warranty. The dealership could claim "if you hadn't modified the ECU and exhaust, the engine would not have failed" - sure, you might be right, but some would prefer to avoid the hassle and potential legal fight over the issue. So, if you have a mod-friendly dealer (especially one that handled the initial install for you directly), they'll go to bat for you with MBUSA and for some, that peace of mind is worth the higher installation expense.

A final observation - Kevin did not state "make sure you have the Kleemann work done by OUR dealership" - he simply advised to have it done by A dealership. While he is clearly biased (since he works for a dealership), I don't feel his comments are warranting of any ban, nor suspension... IMHO.

hhughes1

My unbiased opinion is that Kevin's statements merely serve to remind us that MB certified techs are available to perform the upgrades if one chooses to go that route. For peace of mind, I would be much more comfortable regarding the warranty knowing that no one other than a MB mechanic has ever touched my car. This is really a personal decision but I am much more likely to move forward even if it means some travel and expense.

Just my two cents....keep the change

hhughes1

Taylor, in my previous post I neglected to include something important which was a "Thank You" for the excellent information and perspective that you have provided on many topics. Your contributions and those of others with the same positive intentions make this forum both informative and enjoyable.

1st amg

I cant wait for your review and videos as I have pretty much decided to go with Kleeman, keep us posted!!

taylorcoleman

[QUOTE=Lew L;3368072]Based on my first-hand experience, I don't feel that Kevin's post was misleading.QUOTE]

Lew--hi.

I think you clarified a bunch of things rather well, for those who may have been confused by my post. I agree, and it should be reinforced, that having your MB dealer be friendly with any mods is a very important element when choosing to mod your car. I made sure my MB dealer was OK with the mods, but I'm using an independent shop to make the mods.

Agreed that lawsuits are cold comfort.

I just can't agree with your statement above, though to each is own. To be clear, I believe Kevin's post was misleading in that I interpreted his email to say that if you take your car to get mods done from anywhere other than an authorized MB dealer, the MB dealer will status 8 your car. This is just not true. There is a very big difference between status 8, and not honoring a warrranty. I felt Kevin was using scare tactics, and that it was not fair to people reading this forum who may not have known the real truth.

And, I have no issue with MB of Buckhead--from what you say, they seem to be a great shop, unless their sales tactics mirror those of Kevin's.

taylorcoleman

hhughes -- seems as if (based on the reponses to my prior post) not many other people read anything negatively in Kevin's post. Perhaps I'm just being too patriarchal here and being too sensitive.

But just in case not, let's revisit Kevin's statement:

"537 to crank is more like it, be careful onhaving an independent do work, if you have independent do it and it goes to dealer you will get a status 8!
see my post under , has any one done kleeman?
we have a dyno and it comes up at 537"

I read this as, if you have anyone other than an authorized MB dealer do the install, you will get a status 8. Again, maybe his phraseology was poor, and what he really meant to say was something to the effect of, "Whether you use a MB dealer for the install, or an independent dealer, just make sure your dealer will be OK with the mods and will still honor the factory warranty."

Again, I read this more as a scare tactic to drive business his way for those who had planned to have an independent do the install.

FWIW, my independent installer is charging $40/hour whereas the MB dealer here would have charged about $100/hour. I have reason to believe my independent is just as good as the dealer in quality.

So the bottom line for me is perhaps that my response to Kevin's post may have been too strong?

taylorcoleman

Quite welcome, thanks for the note.

Many people on this forum seem to be very passionate and want to share their insights. I've benefited greatly from many posters here.

I have no problem with vastly divergent opinions -- that's what makes this forum fun and informative. I take things very seriously, however, when I feel as if a vendor/dealer/forum member/etc., may be wantonly misleading.

taylorcoleman

Believe you me, I am too

Good timing as I'm on business all week in San Fran, so by the time I get back, my car should be ready

Pics, vids and commentary will be honest and detailed. I'm looking forward to giving Kleemann a big thumbs up if all works well. They were certainly very responsive pre-sale (though who isn't).

And in all fairness, I thought Evosport had a terrific product as well. Kleemann just suited my particular needs better.

AMG Dictator

This place is getting just nuts....

I saw no problem with Kevin's posts. I don't think anyone read his posts and thought that any mods will kill your warranty unless they were done by a MB dealer.

In all actuality, any mod done by a dealer or an independant can be grounds for MBUSA to deny a warranty claim and status 8 your car if they want or feel it is warranted.

You may have the most mod friendly dealer in the US, if a MBUSA rep is at their delaer and sees them doing warranty work on your transmission and finds an ECU and headers, it is going to be up to you to prove that the mods were not the cause of the failure.

The reality is, if you have a dealer that tells you that you are under full warranty after they mod your car, get them to put it in writing. This way if they can't sail it through MBUSA as a warrant claim then you can hold them acountable for it.

This is the only way that you might be covered. Big MB dealers that also do tuning play in a grey area. Many do mods at the time of purchae or even before you buy the car. I have been told by a couple that the work is fully under warranty. No one has even been willing to put it in writing.

When a problem happens they just send everything through as a warranty claim and as long as no one checks, it is not an issue. The first line of warranty fraud for MBUSA is the dealer, if they are on board.......

For what it is worth, in my opinion, this is why it is good to have a mod friendly dealer and I am glad I do!

Out!

taylorcoleman

When has this place ever not been nuts?

Fine opinion you have (though I don't share most of it). I do like your suggestion of get it in writing--this is a great idea.

Let's be clear, however, that your statement, "it is going to be up to you to prove that the mods were not the cause of failure" is just false.

Since the forum TOU does not allow me to link outside of this forum, I excerpt the following:

"New Car Vehicle Dealer Obligations

Fact: A dealer must prove (not just say) that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before he can deny warranty coverage on that basis.

Your Rights

Point out to the dealer the provision of the Magnuson-Moss Act. Require that they explain how the aftermarket equipment caused the problem. If they can't (or the explanation sounds questionable) it is your legal right to demand they comply with the warranty.

Fact:

If you are still being unfairly denied warranty coverage, there is recourse. The Federal Trade Commission, which administers the Magnuson-Moss Act, monitors compliance with warranty issues. Direct complaints to the FTC at (202) 326-3128.

The Magnuson-Moss Act

For "The Businesspersons Guide to Federal Warranty Law" and the full requirements of the Magnuson-Moss Act, visit the FTC's web site."

dlbello

Sounds about right with the above statement, a while back I was inquiring (at my dealership) about getting ECU and other Mods done. The service manager said No problem we have guys here at the dealer that do Mods on AMG's, well then I asked how about the MB warranty after the Mod's? The SVC Manger said, it will then be Null and Void. I said huh??? he stated "Well... guys that can afford to buy these cars then Mod them, they can then afford fixing them themselves if they break down"... After hearing that, I'd say unless its in writing (which I doubt it will be), I don't think MBUSA will take responsibility for engine failure, after the fact...

JYOO

HAHAHA fall for this, and you should not be modding cars or its obvious you are definetly knowledge deprived. Go figure he would come into the C63 section to scare people, haha jk, but uhh yeah try posting something like this in the e section.

AMG Dictator

I could care less if you share my opinions. Your debate was regarding performance mods and the trickle down of warranty coverage.

I am quite familiar with the Magnuson-Moss Act. We are not talking about your cigarette lighter that has stopped working here from a mod that you have done to your engine.

Let's play this out:

I have my exhaust system, ECU and TCU modified with Renntech parts and a small 100 HP shot of NOS. I take my 7 month old C63 to a deserted parking lot to practice launches for my next trip to the drag strip and blow up my differential.

Warranty Claim for the 7 month old differential? I think not (unless perhaps you have a mod friendly dealer.....)

You are telling me that they are going to fix my differential under warrany since I have not modified that particular part?

If I think that my differential was failing anyway before my 100 shot of NOS, it is going to be up to me to prove that it had an issue and that the issue was not caused by the additional stress that my modifications put on the car.

You are seriously joking if you think that by walking into a dealer that has denied a warranty claim over a mod that by saying the magic words of " Magnuson-Moss Act" I have a bridge to sell you.

Let me tell you how it would go. You lawyer up, your dealer and MBUSA lawyer up and in 7 years you still pay for your blown differential and all the legal fees.

My understanding is that the Magnuson-Moss Act was put in place to stop dealers from denials of warranty claims for items not related to modified parts as in my cigarette lighter example at the beginning.

As you , only trying to help educate everyone......

AMG Dictator

Oh, and this is not legal advice