Dyno results are in for 2nd cat X pipe
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
'09 C63 Performance Package - Steel Grey/Sahara Biege
100% Made in the USA:
$795.00 for the "Single X" or "Single X-R1"
"Single X" is the front cat delete pipe, and the "Single X-R1" is the resonator delete.
"Double XX" is a "Single X" and "Single X-R1" combined into a package for $1449.00
Let me know what you think guys!!
Let's make amends with a very attractive group buy
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,983
Likes: 21
From: Vegas and Vancouver, BC
.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,237
Likes: 2
From: Miami, FL
C63 AMG(sold), 2009 CL550, 2010 S550 Majestic Black, 2010 ML550, 2006 C230, 2009 Venza
Since you asked... I'm very interested and greatly appreciate your contribution, I'm hoping we can work on the price a bit. A by-pass pipe for $800 (no install) seems steep. (Or put another way, over $160 per horsepower)
Let's make amends with a very attractive group buy
Let's make amends with a very attractive group buy
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Ok, I understand guys, and I am completely open to your suggestions, and a GB to lower the price. I do however want to point out a few things. The items are not straight pipes. We had to have the pipes drawn up for the CNC bender, to fit correctly in the proper "X" configuration, as well as being made from 304 stainless with multiple complex bends to make it all fit correct. If they were JUST 2 straight pipes, I would be CRAZY to ask this money, but the amount of work that goes into them/have gone into them I believe is close to the mark. Bear in mind our company does need to also make a profit, so in no way am I saying this is our cost or even near it for that matter, there is margin factored into this as well as an amortization of subjective costs that have been associated to this project, such as CNC programing, piece commitment, R&D, etc etc., We'd be happy to lower our margin if we can offset it with quantity, so we can be able to amortize a lot of the set up expense and R&D we've absorbed up to this point. We're open to some feedback on the GB, let me know!
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,237
Likes: 2
From: Miami, FL
C63 AMG(sold), 2009 CL550, 2010 S550 Majestic Black, 2010 ML550, 2006 C230, 2009 Venza
Ok, I understand guys, and I am completely open to your suggestions, and a GB to lower the price. I do however want to point out a few things. The items are not straight pipes. We had to have the pipes drawn up for the CNC bender, to fit correctly in the proper "X" configuration, as well as being made from 304 stainless with multiple complex bends to make it all fit correct. If they were JUST 2 straight pipes, I would be CRAZY to ask this money, but the amount of work that goes into them/have gone into them I believe is close to the mark. Bear in mind our company does need to also make a profit, so in no way am I saying this is our cost or even near it for that matter, there is margin factored into this as well as an amortization of subjective costs that have been associated to this project, such as CNC programing, piece commitment, R&D, etc etc., We'd be happy to lower our margin if we can offset it with quantity, so we can be able to amortize a lot of the set up expense and R&D we've absorbed up to this point. We're open to some feedback on the GB, let me know!
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,699
Likes: 4
From: Tucson, AZ
C63 AMG
Unbreakable1,
There is some cuttting involve, please read this respose from BRIANGTPRO:
Installation: There is ONE cut you must make, no way around it, it is a simple cut (we provide pics and instructions on how to do it and only takes 5 mins. This one cut is not an issue when it comes to re-installing your 2nd cats, we provide you with a slip joint that bolts on like a factory item, that allows you to put the 2nd's back on quickly and easily, most, if not paying attention would never catch it being messed with. BUT I want to be 100% clear, there is ONE cut that needs to be made, and yes you can do it at home easily with the cutter we will be supplying with the kit.
There is some cuttting involve, please read this respose from BRIANGTPRO:
Installation: There is ONE cut you must make, no way around it, it is a simple cut (we provide pics and instructions on how to do it and only takes 5 mins. This one cut is not an issue when it comes to re-installing your 2nd cats, we provide you with a slip joint that bolts on like a factory item, that allows you to put the 2nd's back on quickly and easily, most, if not paying attention would never catch it being messed with. BUT I want to be 100% clear, there is ONE cut that needs to be made, and yes you can do it at home easily with the cutter we will be supplying with the kit.
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Since you asked... I'm very interested and greatly appreciate your contribution, I'm hoping we can work on the price a bit. A by-pass pipe for $800 (no install) seems steep. (Or put another way, over $160 per horsepower)
Let's make amends with a very attractive group buy
Let's make amends with a very attractive group buy
BUUUTT, in actuality we're averaging 16rwhp through the powerband with this mod, which equates to $50.00 per HP
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Unbreakable1,
There is some cuttting involve, please read this respose from BRIANGTPRO:
Installation: There is ONE cut you must make, no way around it, it is a simple cut (we provide pics and instructions on how to do it and only takes 5 mins. This one cut is not an issue when it comes to re-installing your 2nd cats, we provide you with a slip joint that bolts on like a factory item, that allows you to put the 2nd's back on quickly and easily, most, if not paying attention would never catch it being messed with. BUT I want to be 100% clear, there is ONE cut that needs to be made, and yes you can do it at home easily with the cutter we will be supplying with the kit.
There is some cuttting involve, please read this respose from BRIANGTPRO:
Installation: There is ONE cut you must make, no way around it, it is a simple cut (we provide pics and instructions on how to do it and only takes 5 mins. This one cut is not an issue when it comes to re-installing your 2nd cats, we provide you with a slip joint that bolts on like a factory item, that allows you to put the 2nd's back on quickly and easily, most, if not paying attention would never catch it being messed with. BUT I want to be 100% clear, there is ONE cut that needs to be made, and yes you can do it at home easily with the cutter we will be supplying with the kit.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,103
Likes: 0
From: FL
'09 C63 AMG
So how is this "Single X" pipe and/or "Single X-R1" pipe any different from std. $65 "straight pipes?" Is it b/c they delete the secondary cats that make them different? But even if this is true, then why can one just go to any exhaust shop and get either SS straight pipes to delete the secondary cats or a SS X pipe? 
Nothing against your product, Brian; just trying to figure out how/why it's worth $800 just for the SS piping.
btw -- we need to see pics.
Nothing against your product, Brian; just trying to figure out how/why it's worth $800 just for the SS piping.
btw -- we need to see pics.
Last edited by sflgator; Sep 29, 2009 at 09:13 PM.
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
So how is this "Single X" pipe and/or "Single X-R1" pipe any different from std. $65 "straight pipes?" Is it b/c they delete the secondary cats that make them different? But even if this is true, then why can one just go to any exhaust shop and get either SS straight pipes to delete the secondary cats or a SS X pipe?
Nothing against your product, Brian; just trying to figure out how/why it's worth $800 just for the SS piping.
Nothing against your product, Brian; just trying to figure out how/why it's worth $800 just for the SS piping.
There are other ways to go for sure, such as going to a muffler shop that is willing to chop up and weld a few straight pipes in there, but this is far from that, sound wise, engineering wise, and construction wise. 304 straight tuning is $22.04 per ft currently, so if all you needed was 3 ft of tubing with no labor to just go "straight" that would equate to about $66.12 + tax and shipping, but again, no labor, no X, no bends, so your estimate is not far off for raw straight pipe if that's all we're looking at.
I hope this might shed a little light on the subject.
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
2009 C63, 2000 Nissan Maxima
I'm sure he read this response, I believe he misunderstood my statement to him regarding the reversibility of the Single X, hence why I made is totally bold and out there so there was no mis information floating around. BTW he has my cell #, and is welcome to use it if he has ANY questions whatsoever.
Brian was great through the entire process so i have no concerns...
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,103
Likes: 0
From: FL
'09 C63 AMG
Our pipes are CNC bent and use the stock OEM flare joints, as well as an engineered X, a cutting tool, nessesary clamps and hardware, plus a lot of R&D. Please see: http://www.burnsstainless.com/Crosso...rossovers.html you can say we are essentially using (2) part# MC2-250-16-304 from page http://www.burnsstainless.com/MergeC...into1base.html this is just to form an "X", this does not account any of the bent tubing, fabrication, hardware, necessary mark-up etc. We're not misleading anyone by saying we're not making money, but if you add up all the parts, and the labor to put it together, amortize the time invested, we're not making a killing by any means, trust me..
There are other ways to go for sure, such as going to a muffler shop that is willing to chop up and weld a few straight pipes in there, but this is far from that, sound wise, engineering wise, and construction wise. 304 straight tuning is $22.04 per ft currently, so if all you needed was 3 ft of tubing with no labor to just go "straight" that would equate to about $66.12 + tax and shipping, but again, no labor, no X, no bends, so your estimate is not far off for raw straight pipe if that's all we're looking at.
I hope this might shed a little light on the subject.
There are other ways to go for sure, such as going to a muffler shop that is willing to chop up and weld a few straight pipes in there, but this is far from that, sound wise, engineering wise, and construction wise. 304 straight tuning is $22.04 per ft currently, so if all you needed was 3 ft of tubing with no labor to just go "straight" that would equate to about $66.12 + tax and shipping, but again, no labor, no X, no bends, so your estimate is not far off for raw straight pipe if that's all we're looking at.
I hope this might shed a little light on the subject.
) can calculate that you would still most likely make a decent profit if you were to sell these X pipe kits for ~ $500...is that in the ballpark? A $100 profit on $400 is a decent 25% profit margin for a brand new product. Not sure about your business, but in my industry, a new product usually comes out aggressively priced and as sales grow, prices tend to increase as do profit margins. Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that your X-pipe kit is really an easy DIY, and if so, what's the typical total installation time for a novice?
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Ok; so if you need two of those 2 into 1 Base Collectors (304 SS) which you must get for < $190 retail cost + the cutting tool + hardware + all the R&D + labor, etc., then I think most of us (even if we're not mathematicians ) can calculate that you would still most likely make a decent profit if you were to sell these X pipe kits for ~ $500...is that in the ballpark? A $100 profit on $400 is a decent 25% profit margin for a brand new product. Not sure about your business, but in my industry, a new product usually comes out aggressively priced and as sales grow, prices tend to increase as do profit margins.
Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that your X-pipe kit is really an easy DIY, and if so, what's the typical total installation time for a novice?
) can calculate that you would still most likely make a decent profit if you were to sell these X pipe kits for ~ $500...is that in the ballpark? A $100 profit on $400 is a decent 25% profit margin for a brand new product. Not sure about your business, but in my industry, a new product usually comes out aggressively priced and as sales grow, prices tend to increase as do profit margins. Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that your X-pipe kit is really an easy DIY, and if so, what's the typical total installation time for a novice?
Pics will be up on Friday, as I mentioned before.
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
I do have a question for you guys...
Would you like to see a non X-pipe design made from mild steel that needs to be welded in permanently for around $150.00 or so??
I really am trying to figure out what you guys want.. Do you want stuff that is just really cheap? or would you like high quality items at a little higher price?
I want to try and make everyone as happy as I can, however with the information I've been receiving, it seems that no one can appreciate a good quality item. So, if it's a cheap item you guys want please let me know, I'm all ears.
Would you like to see a non X-pipe design made from mild steel that needs to be welded in permanently for around $150.00 or so??
I really am trying to figure out what you guys want.. Do you want stuff that is just really cheap? or would you like high quality items at a little higher price?
I want to try and make everyone as happy as I can, however with the information I've been receiving, it seems that no one can appreciate a good quality item. So, if it's a cheap item you guys want please let me know, I'm all ears.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,103
Likes: 0
From: FL
'09 C63 AMG
Your points are very well received. Yes, based on the *actual* raw costs, I have a profit % factored in very close to your GP % figures, but the costs are higher than $400.00. I completely understand you, and I also understand economics and marketing, I've worked for a Fortune 1000 company that was publicly held before in marketing so I can say I completely understand your points of contention. If you read the Burns info, they are $190.00 each + $30.00 finishing, and don't give D**K for discounts on their collector items, (you can call to verify) this also does not account for the CNC mandrel tubing guy I have to pay, and the materials I have to pay him for (along with his set up fee to run the parts). The cutting tool is negligible at $42.00, but also part of the cost. Like I said, I'm willing to drop the price if we can get some volume, and I can assure you this is a very high quality item.
Pics will be up on Friday, as I mentioned before.
Pics will be up on Friday, as I mentioned before.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
From: Miami
C63 AMG
I do have a question for you guys...
Would you like to see a non X-pipe design made from mild steel that needs to be welded in permanently for around $150.00 or so??
I really am trying to figure out what you guys want.. Do you want stuff that is just really cheap? or would you like high quality items at a little higher price?
I want to try and make everyone as happy as I can, however with the information I've been receiving, it seems that no one can appreciate a good quality item. So, if it's a cheap item you guys want please let me know, I'm all ears.
Would you like to see a non X-pipe design made from mild steel that needs to be welded in permanently for around $150.00 or so??
I really am trying to figure out what you guys want.. Do you want stuff that is just really cheap? or would you like high quality items at a little higher price?
I want to try and make everyone as happy as I can, however with the information I've been receiving, it seems that no one can appreciate a good quality item. So, if it's a cheap item you guys want please let me know, I'm all ears.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,103
Likes: 0
From: FL
'09 C63 AMG
I do have a question for you guys...
Would you like to see a non X-pipe design made from mild steel that needs to be welded in permanently for around $150.00 or so??
I really am trying to figure out what you guys want.. Do you want stuff that is just really cheap? or would you like high quality items at a little higher price?
I want to try and make everyone as happy as I can, however with the information I've been receiving, it seems that no one can appreciate a good quality item. So, if it's a cheap item you guys want please let me know, I'm all ears.
Would you like to see a non X-pipe design made from mild steel that needs to be welded in permanently for around $150.00 or so??
I really am trying to figure out what you guys want.. Do you want stuff that is just really cheap? or would you like high quality items at a little higher price?
I want to try and make everyone as happy as I can, however with the information I've been receiving, it seems that no one can appreciate a good quality item. So, if it's a cheap item you guys want please let me know, I'm all ears.
I would be willing to bet that most shops can replicate something of similar quality and construction in 304 SS for ~ $250-$400. I'm not saying that everyone would do that or be willing to "cheap out" with inferior parts, but it's a tough market out there and many smaller companies are chomping at the bit for more business.
Last edited by sflgator; Sep 29, 2009 at 10:33 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,983
Likes: 21
From: Vegas and Vancouver, BC
.
We need to see actual pics of the product to make an opinion on retail cost. I believe there is a hump for a cross brace that needs to be dealt with past the secondary cats on the way to the rear. That also adds to the cost. Also, the ease of reversibility is another factor to consider vs. going to a muffler shop. There used to be an awesome fabricator here in Vegas that operated out of the same shop for two generations. It is too bad they went out of business a year ago, otherwise I would have them fabricate shorty headers and an x-pipe.
Perhaps we don't need the quality of steel better than OEM. I assume your product will be nice and shiny verus the dull/tarnished OEM pipes.
Perhaps we don't need the quality of steel better than OEM. I assume your product will be nice and shiny verus the dull/tarnished OEM pipes.
Last edited by Sincity; Sep 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM.
Thread Starter
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: CA working like a slave
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Thank you for your input guys.
To address the other concerns:
Install time in the garage of the "Single X" is about 10-15 mins with simple hand tools on the ground in the garage with the tool we supply.
As far as someone duplicating the design for 250-400, possibly, but no one has my exact dims (yes they are custom spec'd, and built), they can come close by guessing, but the way my part is designed, someone is going to have to go through a LOT of trouble to reproduce it. For that type of money, they can probably do a quick "weld-in" without any of the bends (the bends are very complex to clear everything under the car), and they will also need to have the right compression die to re create the factory compression joints. At that, there might be a chance to do it cheaper as a "permanent weld in".
I might have gone about this all the wrong way. My usual train of thought is to build the best part I can with the highest quality construction and research data. I think possibly I need to re-think my strategy, possibly I need to ask "what do you want, and what do you want to pay", and disregard my initial thoughts to produce the best, and possibly settle for what you guys want. Not sure, please help me understand what you guys really want.
To address the other concerns:
Install time in the garage of the "Single X" is about 10-15 mins with simple hand tools on the ground in the garage with the tool we supply.
As far as someone duplicating the design for 250-400, possibly, but no one has my exact dims (yes they are custom spec'd, and built), they can come close by guessing, but the way my part is designed, someone is going to have to go through a LOT of trouble to reproduce it. For that type of money, they can probably do a quick "weld-in" without any of the bends (the bends are very complex to clear everything under the car), and they will also need to have the right compression die to re create the factory compression joints. At that, there might be a chance to do it cheaper as a "permanent weld in".
I might have gone about this all the wrong way. My usual train of thought is to build the best part I can with the highest quality construction and research data. I think possibly I need to re-think my strategy, possibly I need to ask "what do you want, and what do you want to pay", and disregard my initial thoughts to produce the best, and possibly settle for what you guys want. Not sure, please help me understand what you guys really want.
