What is the truth behind a C63 Tune?
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Good question. I suggest anyone who is interested contact him directly. When I spoke with him, he stated he could fly someone out if more than 3 tunes and meet at the dyno shop. He said that was the preferred method. It didn't occur to me on how he was going to do it. 
He did say he had files that he can load onto the ECU including a 91 octane file.
He did say he had files that he can load onto the ECU including a 91 octane file.
Last edited by Sincity; Oct 5, 2009 at 11:37 PM.
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From: Houston
C63S
Why does everyone assume that a dyno tune would have to be done through the OBDII? I can pull the ECU and flash it on the bench just as easily as flashing through the OBDII....it does take a bit more time though. The result would be the same.
I could sit here and debate for hours over what's inside the ME9.7 on an S63 vs. a C63, but most of you have already made up your mind on what you want to believe.
Any Chicago C63 down for a FREE tune? PM me.
I could sit here and debate for hours over what's inside the ME9.7 on an S63 vs. a C63, but most of you have already made up your mind on what you want to believe.
Any Chicago C63 down for a FREE tune? PM me.
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I just looked up the PNs for the S63 exhaust manifold and it is different from the C63. However, I also looked up the PNs for the E63 exhaust manifold and it is the same PN as the C63. If the C63 and E63 share the same intake and exhaust (manifold), it would be reasonable to assume that they can share engine maps, right? If that is true, wow!!!!! Just being able to get an E63 map is good enough for me since I know it will be within factory parameters and without the having the speed limiter. I remember Andy (MHP) saying something about programming how the vehicle shifts. Can this also be programmed into the ECU? This is very interesting by what you said about the ME9.7.
Last edited by Sincity; Oct 6, 2009 at 11:06 AM.
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Appreciate your feedback and contributions - they help everyone develop a better understanding of what exactly is done. Also look forward to your Chicago C63 customer's results!
My limited understanding of what a "custom dyno tune" is that it's somewhat like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzeLcvgOVzQ
Fast forward to ~1:50 to 3:00 in the video. I previously thought dyno tuning would require utilization of the OBDII port, but apparently by using an "emulator" of some sort, you can have the ECU out of the car, and yet still have it running/operating properly on the dyno... is that accurate? If so, is that how LET's doing it (i.e. similar to EVOMSit - reading and adjusting parameters in real-time to custom-match the vehicle)?
I've heard of situations (not LET-specific) where a "custom dyno tune" was simply a trial-and-error process of loading pre-built tunes onto a specific customer car, figuring out the "best-fit" one of the bunch and leaving that as the final tune on the ECU. Logically, that's no more "custom" than trying on a few shirts off a rack and buying the one that fit best... which isn't really custom at all. But I digress...
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C63 AMG
This piece of information is what interests me......
I just looked up the PNs for the S63 exhaust manifold and it is different from the C63. However, I also looked up the PNs for the E63 exhaust manifold and it is the same PN as the C63. If the C63 and E63 share the same intake and exhaust (manifold), it would be reasonable to assume that they can share engine maps, right? If that is true, wow!!!!!
I just looked up the PNs for the S63 exhaust manifold and it is different from the C63. However, I also looked up the PNs for the E63 exhaust manifold and it is the same PN as the C63. If the C63 and E63 share the same intake and exhaust (manifold), it would be reasonable to assume that they can share engine maps, right? If that is true, wow!!!!!
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
I'm confused by what we have already made our minds up on?
Is it less convenient to tune via the ECU port rather than the OBDII? Yes. Are we saying LET sucks because that is how they do it? No. It was simply a question of logistics and in the long run the ability to access the ECU through the OBDII allows for the most efficient use of dyno and tune time (not to mention heat cycles on the car).
There is still much confusion as to how each tuner tunes a C63, but there is no doubt that cracking the seal would be a risk for me. The first few 63 AMGs that had the ECU done that way got flagged quickly at MB. PLUS, electronics are funny enough with good contacts, etc.
To Sin's point.... all of the exhaust manifolds are actually the same design. The difference is simply the angle of the drop at the back. Nobody has ever denied that the E63 drivetrain is similar to the C63s. Where I think you are missing a link is that while it is true that E63 ecu trim mapping may be similar to what want, but the code is a different language. Also, look at what you are getting from it. It is just the TB getting opened up. The timing, etc. is the same. Like it or not, it will take decoding to tune the C63. It would simply be easier to "re-do" it on the C63 than to learn and convert the E63 file.
LET has the idea right with price point. As with any tune, I would want to see some major data or a willingness from a tuner to provide me with updated tunes during the early cycle as I would assume you will see it get refined...
Is it less convenient to tune via the ECU port rather than the OBDII? Yes. Are we saying LET sucks because that is how they do it? No. It was simply a question of logistics and in the long run the ability to access the ECU through the OBDII allows for the most efficient use of dyno and tune time (not to mention heat cycles on the car).
There is still much confusion as to how each tuner tunes a C63, but there is no doubt that cracking the seal would be a risk for me. The first few 63 AMGs that had the ECU done that way got flagged quickly at MB. PLUS, electronics are funny enough with good contacts, etc.
To Sin's point.... all of the exhaust manifolds are actually the same design. The difference is simply the angle of the drop at the back. Nobody has ever denied that the E63 drivetrain is similar to the C63s. Where I think you are missing a link is that while it is true that E63 ecu trim mapping may be similar to what want, but the code is a different language. Also, look at what you are getting from it. It is just the TB getting opened up. The timing, etc. is the same. Like it or not, it will take decoding to tune the C63. It would simply be easier to "re-do" it on the C63 than to learn and convert the E63 file.
LET has the idea right with price point. As with any tune, I would want to see some major data or a willingness from a tuner to provide me with updated tunes during the early cycle as I would assume you will see it get refined...
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2018 AMG GTR, 2017 GLS63, 2019 C63s
Here is an analogy that occured to me:
I am an orthodontist and for my office I purchased software that handles all aspects of my practice. My cost: $27000 plus 4500 annual support. It arrives on a CD-R!
What am I paying for? Not the $.15 blank disk I hope.
I believe I pay for all the R&D that went to this SW from its inception 20 some years ago to today and continue to pay for updates and upgrades...
I AGREE that there is a name premium we pay for that Honda civic tuner types don't charge, but by the same token an oil change for a civic is $30 and not 250! On the other hand I don't think it is quite fair to say that a tune is expensive for what it does. Rather we should consider the time and effort that went into its R&D, design, testing and also the market it is released.
My 2¢
I am an orthodontist and for my office I purchased software that handles all aspects of my practice. My cost: $27000 plus 4500 annual support. It arrives on a CD-R!
What am I paying for? Not the $.15 blank disk I hope.
I believe I pay for all the R&D that went to this SW from its inception 20 some years ago to today and continue to pay for updates and upgrades...
I AGREE that there is a name premium we pay for that Honda civic tuner types don't charge, but by the same token an oil change for a civic is $30 and not 250! On the other hand I don't think it is quite fair to say that a tune is expensive for what it does. Rather we should consider the time and effort that went into its R&D, design, testing and also the market it is released.
My 2¢
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Here is an analogy that occured to me:
I am an orthodontist and for my office I purchased software that handles all aspects of my practice. My cost: $27000 plus 4500 annual support. It arrives on a CD-R!
What am I paying for? Not the $.15 blank disk I hope.
I believe I pay for all the R&D that went to this SW from its inception 20 some years ago to today and continue to pay for updates and upgrades...
I AGREE that there is a name premium we pay for that Honda civic tuner types don't charge, but by the same token an oil change for a civic is $30 and not 250! On the other hand I don't think it is quite fair to say that a tune is expensive for what it does. Rather we should consider the time and effort that went into its R&D, design, testing and also the market it is released.
My 2¢
I am an orthodontist and for my office I purchased software that handles all aspects of my practice. My cost: $27000 plus 4500 annual support. It arrives on a CD-R!
What am I paying for? Not the $.15 blank disk I hope.
I believe I pay for all the R&D that went to this SW from its inception 20 some years ago to today and continue to pay for updates and upgrades...
I AGREE that there is a name premium we pay for that Honda civic tuner types don't charge, but by the same token an oil change for a civic is $30 and not 250! On the other hand I don't think it is quite fair to say that a tune is expensive for what it does. Rather we should consider the time and effort that went into its R&D, design, testing and also the market it is released.
My 2¢
And you can't compare oil changes with a Honda. I suspect our 9 qts of M1 alone cost more than an entire Honda oil change.
Last edited by Sincity; Oct 7, 2009 at 12:47 PM.
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Where I think you are missing a link is that while it is true that E63 ecu trim mapping may be similar to what want, but the code is a different language. Also, look at what you are getting from it. It is just the TB getting opened up. The timing, etc. is the same. Like it or not, it will take decoding to tune the C63. It would simply be easier to "re-do" it on the C63 than to learn and convert the E63 file.
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C63
Can't wait till I bring the C to Jerry. Didn't even realize this yesterday when we were shooting messages back and forth, but it's my birthday on Columbus Day, this will probably top most if not all other presents I'll end up receiving. 
I'll be sure to keep everyone on here posted on the 'seat of the pants' feel of the car once all is said and done; I'm looking forward to results similar to (or hopefully even better than 
) what other members have experienced post-ecu flash through the other tuning firms that have already been offering these.
Didn't even realize this yesterday when we were shooting messages back and forth, but it's my birthday on Columbus Day, this will probably top most if not all other presents I'll end up receiving. I'll be sure to keep everyone on here posted on the 'seat of the pants' feel of the car once all is said and done; I'm looking forward to results similar to (or hopefully even better than ) what other members have experienced post-ecu flash through the other tuning firms that have already been offering these.
Thread Starter
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Can't wait till I bring the C to Jerry. Didn't even realize this yesterday when we were shooting messages back and forth, but it's my birthday on Columbus Day, this will probably top most if not all other presents I'll end up receiving. I'll be sure to keep everyone on here posted on the 'seat of the pants' feel of the car once all is said and done; I'm looking forward to results similar to (or hopefully even better than ) what other members have experienced post-ecu flash through the other tuning firms that have already been offering these.
Didn't even realize this yesterday when we were shooting messages back and forth, but it's my birthday on Columbus Day, this will probably top most if not all other presents I'll end up receiving. I'll be sure to keep everyone on here posted on the 'seat of the pants' feel of the car once all is said and done; I'm looking forward to results similar to (or hopefully even better than ) what other members have experienced post-ecu flash through the other tuning firms that have already been offering these.
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C63
Yea I really have to get on that, I don't have a single picture of this car yet. 
Apologize for the terrible intro! I bought the C63 new (mars red, every option [including pp] except for park assist, black int., black maple wood trim) almost 2 months ago now, and I've been loving every minute of it.
edit - sincity: yea, I'm the 'Chicago C63' haha.
Apologize for the terrible intro! I bought the C63 new (mars red, every option [including pp] except for park assist, black int., black maple wood trim) almost 2 months ago now, and I've been loving every minute of it. edit - sincity: yea, I'm the 'Chicago C63' haha.
Last edited by mrc63jg; Oct 7, 2009 at 09:07 PM.
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Here is my take on your point: I think that MB could cheaply offer a tune, because they do know what the parameters need to be. But, I don't think the tuners have really cracked that much code so easily simply by copying E63 codes. At best, they may have been lucky and a similar map represents the TB or something but other than that, a C63 tune development will take more time (IMO) than the E63 / CLS63 simply because of the convenience of going through OBDII. Keep in mind that this allows for many more test changes while on a dyno or datalogging. Having to remove or flash the ecu adds to the logistics and takes up precious dyno and development time...
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Your case is a little different. There is 20 years worth of development and improvements made to your management software. That is R&D and 20 years of salary to support. I am talking about a C63 tune and how the engine map compares to the 2009 E63 engine map since all powertrain components are identical. That is like another software company ripping off the afforementioned management software and making changes to make it run similarly or improve upon it; not much R&D needed. I agree that the tune is not too expensive (Eurocharged/LET & Kleemann) dollar per HP wise for what it does, but, does it have to cost $2k to $3k as some of the other tuners charge? How much R&D is spent is anyone's guess as this is a closely held secret by the tuners. My speculation is not a whole lot because they already have access to the E63 maps and the engine/drivetrain is identical to a C63.
And you can't compare oil changes with a Honda. I suspect our 9 qts of M1 alone cost more than an entire Honda oil change.
And you can't compare oil changes with a Honda. I suspect our 9 qts of M1 alone cost more than an entire Honda oil change.
I don't want to come off defending the pricing. I definately agree that in this instance it is not representative of the work that is put into it. I merely wanted to point out that one pays for more that the ten minutes it takes the tuner to "copy a file" onto the ECU.
Ultimately it is down to supply and demand, and to competition among tuner companies.
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I don't want to come off defending the pricing. I definately agree that in this instance it is not representative of the work that is put into it. I merely wanted to point out that one pays for more that the ten minutes it takes the tuner to "copy a file" onto the ECU.
Ultimately it is down to supply and demand, and to competition among tuner companies.
Ultimately it is down to supply and demand, and to competition among tuner companies.
Let's see more competition out there! Eurocharged/LET seems to be the underdog here and we'll soon know what they can do at a lower price point.
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Are you sure the ECU is the same? From what I learned, it has more to do with the platform and how the various components communicate throughout the car than just ECU codes. My assumption was always that the C63 ECU was different, since it is motor mounted but the 63 is very new to me so i am also learning. I have been very interested in 63 tuning for sometime as that will be key in adding true mods (SC, turbos, etc.).
Originally Posted by Jerry@LETMotorsports
I could sit here and debate for hours over what's inside the ME9.7 on an S63 vs. a C63, but most of you have already made up your mind on what you want to believe.
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
Then maybe how data is transfered?
What does he mean argue? Why didn't he just explain it?
Also something must be different if rennTech doesn't offer the Brick for the C63 but does for the CLS63. Can anyone verify if renntech does the ECU flash via OBDII or removing the ECU or cracking the case?
What does he mean argue? Why didn't he just explain it?
Also something must be different if rennTech doesn't offer the Brick for the C63 but does for the CLS63. Can anyone verify if renntech does the ECU flash via OBDII or removing the ECU or cracking the case?
Last edited by jangy; Oct 8, 2009 at 01:40 AM.
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C63 AMG
Then maybe how data is transfered?
What does he mean argue? Why didn't he just explain it?
Also something must be different if rennTech doesn't offer the Brick for the C63 but does for the CLS63. Can anyone verify if renntech does the ECU flash via OBDII or removing the ECU or cracking the case?
What does he mean argue? Why didn't he just explain it?
Also something must be different if rennTech doesn't offer the Brick for the C63 but does for the CLS63. Can anyone verify if renntech does the ECU flash via OBDII or removing the ECU or cracking the case?
