How's our Top End?
02-23-2010, 09:56 PM
#26
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02-23-2010, 10:02 PM
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Thanks for the tip! 
While I'm sure there is a little power to be had when the engine loosens up a bit, it is not going to be enough to keep up with stock M5 at high speed. The stock C63's weakness is above 5500 RPMs where the AMG's de-tuning begins. (I.e. Lowering the TB %).
Anyhow, facts are facts: A 4000-lb stock C63 with ~375 RWHP vs. a 4000-lb stock M5 with ~425 RWHP is not a fair fight once they get rolling.
However, from a dig anything is possible.
While I'm sure there is a little power to be had when the engine loosens up a bit, it is not going to be enough to keep up with stock M5 at high speed. The stock C63's weakness is above 5500 RPMs where the AMG's de-tuning begins. (I.e. Lowering the TB %).
Anyhow, facts are facts: A 4000-lb stock C63 with ~375 RWHP vs. a 4000-lb stock M5 with ~425 RWHP is not a fair fight once they get rolling.
However, from a dig anything is possible.
02-23-2010, 10:07 PM
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
Thanks for the tip!
While I'm sure there is a little power to be had when the engine loosens up a bit, it is not going to be enough to keep up with stock M5 at high speed. The stock C63's weakness is above 5500 RPMs where the AMG's de-tuning begins. (I.e. Lowering the TB %).
Anyhow, facts are facts: A 4000-lb stock C63 with ~375 RWHP vs. a 4000-lb stock M5 with ~425 RWHP is not a fair fight once they get rolling.
However, from a dig anything is possible.
While I'm sure there is a little power to be had when the engine loosens up a bit, it is not going to be enough to keep up with stock M5 at high speed. The stock C63's weakness is above 5500 RPMs where the AMG's de-tuning begins. (I.e. Lowering the TB %).
Anyhow, facts are facts: A 4000-lb stock C63 with ~375 RWHP vs. a 4000-lb stock M5 with ~425 RWHP is not a fair fight once they get rolling.
However, from a dig anything is possible.
02-23-2010, 10:10 PM
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
Thanks for the tip!
While I'm sure there is a little power to be had when the engine loosens up a bit, it is not going to be enough to keep up with stock M5 at high speed. The stock C63's weakness is above 5500 RPMs where the AMG's de-tuning begins. (I.e. Lowering the TB %).
Anyhow, facts are facts: A 4000-lb stock C63 with ~375 RWHP vs. a 4000-lb stock M5 with ~425 RWHP is not a fair fight once they get rolling.
However, from a dig anything is possible.
While I'm sure there is a little power to be had when the engine loosens up a bit, it is not going to be enough to keep up with stock M5 at high speed. The stock C63's weakness is above 5500 RPMs where the AMG's de-tuning begins. (I.e. Lowering the TB %).
Anyhow, facts are facts: A 4000-lb stock C63 with ~375 RWHP vs. a 4000-lb stock M5 with ~425 RWHP is not a fair fight once they get rolling.
However, from a dig anything is possible.
02-23-2010, 10:33 PM
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2011 GLK 350, 2013 GT-R, & 2013 RAM 1500
You should get yourself a PerformanceBox/DriftBox or throw your car on a dyno so you can see what's going on.
Take a look at this graph. See @ 95 MPH where the power starts to flatten. That's where the stock C63 is detuned from the factory. (Lower TB %)
See the difference with a tune?
02-23-2010, 10:41 PM
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
Yes, weakness after 5500 RPM. If your car is pulling "harder" all the way to 7000 RPM you have a tune.
You should get yourself a PerformanceBox/DriftBox or throw your car on a dyno so you can see what's going on.
Take a look at this graph. See @ 95 MPH where the power starts to flatten. That's where the stock C63 is detuned from the factory. (Lower TB %)
See the difference with a tune?
You should get yourself a PerformanceBox/DriftBox or throw your car on a dyno so you can see what's going on.
Take a look at this graph. See @ 95 MPH where the power starts to flatten. That's where the stock C63 is detuned from the factory. (Lower TB %)
See the difference with a tune?
02-23-2010, 11:18 PM
#34
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...it could only rise 10hp between 2800 and 6800, which means it is flat.
Superlub is correct...the stock C63 loses "gains" above 5500rpms...it still picks up power, but not at the same rate as in the lower range.
Go back to Calc 1, where you take the derivative of a curve (in this case HP) over RPMs (dHp/dR), and you'll see that it nears 40hp/1.5K RPMs at 5500rpms, whereas it is near 100hp/1.5KRPMs at the lower ranges. That is means it isn't pulling as hard up top.
Look at the M5 curve...the strongest gains per RPM come between 4K-5.5K RPMs, but it continues on the same slope up until its redline.
Anybody that argues a STOCK C63 is faster than a STOCK M5 above about 60mph is just arguing to hear themselves.
02-24-2010, 10:26 AM
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'19 E63S, ‘16 CLS63 RIP, '09 E63 Gone, '06 M5 Gone, '97 Supra TT Gone
Jon you must be delivering that mail REALLY FAST in your girlfriend's C63. She must be so proud of you.
Where's my Playboy this month?? Did it fly out of your back seat as you were on your way to drop it off at my house? Have you been opening up my paystubs?
Where's my Playboy this month?? Did it fly out of your back seat as you were on your way to drop it off at my house? Have you been opening up my paystubs?
02-24-2010, 01:29 PM
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09 Eurocharged C63 AMG
Here comes the ownage!
02-24-2010, 01:45 PM
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C63 AMG
Yes, weakness after 5500 RPM. If your car is pulling "harder" all the way to 7000 RPM you have a tune.
You should get yourself a PerformanceBox/DriftBox or throw your car on a dyno so you can see what's going on.
Take a look at this graph. See @ 95 MPH where the power starts to flatten. That's where the stock C63 is detuned from the factory. (Lower TB %)
See the difference with a tune?
You should get yourself a PerformanceBox/DriftBox or throw your car on a dyno so you can see what's going on.
Take a look at this graph. See @ 95 MPH where the power starts to flatten. That's where the stock C63 is detuned from the factory. (Lower TB %)
See the difference with a tune?
02-24-2010, 02:03 PM
#38
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2012 CTS-V
A tune opens them more than stock but i believe they will never be
able to be open 100% fully as per info I have gathered from tuners
and on this forum.
02-24-2010, 03:01 PM
#39
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2008 C63 AMG
of 60.7% in stock form. With a tune like the one I currently have they open
to 90 percent.
02-24-2010, 04:23 PM
#40
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What is the reason for not being able to open fully at 100%? I don't think I ever read the facts behind this on the forum.
02-24-2010, 07:20 PM
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C63 AMG
02-24-2010, 07:34 PM
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
Starting with the personal attacks? Hmm where are the moderators? Did you look at the kill section where I walked the e63. This gives proof that my C63 is faster than the new M5s.
02-24-2010, 07:44 PM
#44
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
Just because peak RPM is at 6800 doesn't mean it is strong on the top end ...it could only rise 10hp between 2800 and 6800, which means it is flat.
Superlub is correct...the stock C63 loses "gains" above 5500rpms...it still picks up power, but not at the same rate as in the lower range.
Go back to Calc 1, where you take the derivative of a curve (in this case HP) over RPMs (dHp/dR), and you'll see that it nears 40hp/1.5K RPMs at 5500rpms, whereas it is near 100hp/1.5KRPMs at the lower ranges. That is means it isn't pulling as hard up top.
Look at the M5 curve...the strongest gains per RPM come between 4K-5.5K RPMs, but it continues on the same slope up until its redline.
Anybody that argues a STOCK C63 is faster than a STOCK M5 above about 60mph is just arguing to hear themselves.
...it could only rise 10hp between 2800 and 6800, which means it is flat.Superlub is correct...the stock C63 loses "gains" above 5500rpms...it still picks up power, but not at the same rate as in the lower range.
Go back to Calc 1, where you take the derivative of a curve (in this case HP) over RPMs (dHp/dR), and you'll see that it nears 40hp/1.5K RPMs at 5500rpms, whereas it is near 100hp/1.5KRPMs at the lower ranges. That is means it isn't pulling as hard up top.
Look at the M5 curve...the strongest gains per RPM come between 4K-5.5K RPMs, but it continues on the same slope up until its redline.
Anybody that argues a STOCK C63 is faster than a STOCK M5 above about 60mph is just arguing to hear themselves.
02-25-2010, 01:14 AM
#46
Senior Member
What is also news is that your 32 valves open up much better at higher RPMs than everybody elses.
Everybody that has ever had a tune said they could feel the hardest pull at the top, unlike before, where it was pulling hard mid-range, but seemed to fade near 6000rpms (not decrease in power, but just not gain as much).
You must have the special C63 that is detuned from the factory. I heard if you got the golden ticket in your Willie Wonka Bar, that was the reward.
I'm not going to argue that C63 vs. M5, since i haven't raced one...but I will argue that the 6.2L in the C-series begins to flatten above 5500rpms...would love for somebody with some credentials to argue otherwise.
02-25-2010, 01:41 AM
#47
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2007 SRT8 Charger, 09' C63
Dynos don't mean much? Ok...that's news to me.
What is also news is that your 32 valves open up much better at higher RPMs than everybody elses.
Everybody that has ever had a tune said they could feel the hardest pull at the top, unlike before, where it was pulling hard mid-range, but seemed to fade near 6000rpms (not decrease in power, but just not gain as much).
You must have the special C63 that is detuned from the factory. I heard if you got the golden ticket in your Willie Wonka Bar, that was the reward.
I'm not going to argue that C63 vs. M5, since i haven't raced one...but I will argue that the 6.2L in the C-series begins to flatten above 5500rpms...would love for somebody with some credentials to argue otherwise.
What is also news is that your 32 valves open up much better at higher RPMs than everybody elses.
Everybody that has ever had a tune said they could feel the hardest pull at the top, unlike before, where it was pulling hard mid-range, but seemed to fade near 6000rpms (not decrease in power, but just not gain as much).
You must have the special C63 that is detuned from the factory. I heard if you got the golden ticket in your Willie Wonka Bar, that was the reward.
I'm not going to argue that C63 vs. M5, since i haven't raced one...but I will argue that the 6.2L in the C-series begins to flatten above 5500rpms...would love for somebody with some credentials to argue otherwise.
02-25-2010, 01:54 AM
#48
Senior Member
What I think he meant was, dynos always vary, such as weather, temperature, one fan, 2 fans, heat soak, etc. For example a car dynoing 450rwhp on a perfect cool day with proper fans and ventilation, will dyno poorly on a warmer day with inproper fans, ventilation, etc. Thus every dyno is different.
The general shape of the run on the dyno chart gives an indication, whether the hp/tq numbers come out high or low...and any stock C63 on ANY dyno shows a flatter curve above 5.5K...otherwise, I got ripped on my K1, where I saw NO gains at or below 5.5K...but saw tremendous gains above, since the line no longer flattens out.
I don't mind discrediting a dyno for straight up power/performance numbers...but it is very telling when it comes to a general picture of how the car will perform (ie. where max tq/hp are, where the greatest gains/loses in the power bands are, etc.)
02-25-2010, 03:58 AM
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07 E63. 07 STi limited #606/800
have you guys ever thought that the engine could be detuned from factory to only open 60% of its throttle body so that the motor won't blow up and will last longer? just a thought...
I would rather have a C63 with a little less horsepower but will last me 100k miles without many major problems than an m3 thats revving the crap out of the motor and having to replace a head gasket after 40k. i think the new C class' are really reliable and very solid builds, TRY JUMPING ON THE DOOR LOL!!!! like the commercial!
and why are you guys comparing the C63 to a M5? they are totally different classes, and different profile of drivers. the m5 is geared toward the e63, rs6 and other variable autos, in the mid size luxury category.
the C63 should be within the m3 sedan, RS4 and the caddy cst-v even though the cts v would really wop all of those vehicles stock and lb per lb. i would never buy a caddy though.
I would rather have a C63 with a little less horsepower but will last me 100k miles without many major problems than an m3 thats revving the crap out of the motor and having to replace a head gasket after 40k. i think the new C class' are really reliable and very solid builds, TRY JUMPING ON THE DOOR LOL!!!! like the commercial!
and why are you guys comparing the C63 to a M5? they are totally different classes, and different profile of drivers. the m5 is geared toward the e63, rs6 and other variable autos, in the mid size luxury category.
the C63 should be within the m3 sedan, RS4 and the caddy cst-v even though the cts v would really wop all of those vehicles stock and lb per lb. i would never buy a caddy though.
Last edited by infantry; 02-25-2010 at 04:02 AM.
02-25-2010, 05:27 AM
#50
have you guys ever thought that the engine could be detuned from factory to only open 60% of its throttle body so that the motor won't blow up and will last longer? just a thought...
I would rather have a C63 with a little less horsepower but will last me 100k miles without many major problems than an m3 thats revving the crap out of the motor and having to replace a head gasket after 40k. i think the new C class' are really reliable and very solid builds, TRY JUMPING ON THE DOOR LOL!!!! like the commercial!
and why are you guys comparing the C63 to a M5? they are totally different classes, and different profile of drivers. the m5 is geared toward the e63, rs6 and other variable autos, in the mid size luxury category.
the C63 should be within the m3 sedan, RS4 and the caddy cst-v even though the cts v would really wop all of those vehicles stock and lb per lb. i would never buy a caddy though.
I would rather have a C63 with a little less horsepower but will last me 100k miles without many major problems than an m3 thats revving the crap out of the motor and having to replace a head gasket after 40k. i think the new C class' are really reliable and very solid builds, TRY JUMPING ON THE DOOR LOL!!!! like the commercial!
and why are you guys comparing the C63 to a M5? they are totally different classes, and different profile of drivers. the m5 is geared toward the e63, rs6 and other variable autos, in the mid size luxury category.
the C63 should be within the m3 sedan, RS4 and the caddy cst-v even though the cts v would really wop all of those vehicles stock and lb per lb. i would never buy a caddy though.
