ECU Tune, the real discussion...
12-17-2009, 01:35 PM
#1
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CA working like a slave
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
ECU Tune, the real discussion...
I'm going to preface this with the fact, that I'm not going trying to endorse or discredit anyone's tune at the moment, however I think everyone needs to hear the truth..I'm just here to shed a bit of light on this subject, that's all.
Not to rain on anyone's parade, (strapping on my flame suit) or to toss mud at anyone, as to be honest I don't really have a single thing against ANY of the software tuners, but I disagree with a lot of the claims.
I come from a world that you get what you pay for, and I firmly believe in showing our clients the honest truth about what they are getting, with no "fluff up". My team has experience tuning stand alone ECU's from zero to completion, from road course to drag, and we do many different systems, EFI, MoTec, AEM, etc etc. so we do know our way around engine management.
I have run several tunes on our dyno (BTW calibrated/verified by the Head engineer at DynoJet, it is a dyno trusted and verified by Eurotuner Magazine, European Car Magazine, Sport Compact Car Magazine, Eurocode Tuning, IPD Porsche plenums, Stuttgart Porsche Performance, BGB Porsche Motorsports Racing, Tanabe Racing, Tophers Racing, 034 Motorsports, as well as many many other race teams and mfg's. just as a background on our dyno)
Two of these tunes were run "blind" as we did not do the tune on these cars (MHP, Renntech). The two other tunes were loaded here. Powerchip, and Singh.
I overlayed the dyno's and to be honest, none of the tunes walked away from the other. I was really expecting MHP to demolish the other tunes, and I also had very high hopes for the Singh due to the claims I saw. None faired better than the others really.. they all overlayed almost identical, except the Renntech which had a lower HP/TQ output in the midrange, which was very surprising becuase this car also had the CF airbox, could have been due to being restricted by 91oct though.
The test conditions on our dyno always remain the same, which is a 2000rpm pull to redline in 4th gear, using SAE correction factor, and exact fan placement on all cars being the same for airflow. (we also have VERY expensive high velocity Dyno fans, built by DynoJet, not some Home Depot fans)
Test cars:
Renntech
Powerchip (what can be called evosport/powerchip, it's the same tune)
Singh
MHP
My conclusion? I think all the tuners are doing a great job, but at this point with 91 oct. fuel to level the playing field, I would say no tune has the upper hand yet. However with a proper race fuel mix, there is a possibility that there might be some HP variations in output due to a more aggressive timing map. The other factor I am going to start exploring is lower T-stat, and the effects it has on the dyno. So far, what I'm seeing is there is a knock threshold with 91 oct. that these cars might be hitting that are possibly limiting the cars from producing more power, I will be methodically testing some of these theories in Jan.
Not to rain on anyone's parade, (strapping on my flame suit) or to toss mud at anyone, as to be honest I don't really have a single thing against ANY of the software tuners, but I disagree with a lot of the claims.
I come from a world that you get what you pay for, and I firmly believe in showing our clients the honest truth about what they are getting, with no "fluff up". My team has experience tuning stand alone ECU's from zero to completion, from road course to drag, and we do many different systems, EFI, MoTec, AEM, etc etc. so we do know our way around engine management.
I have run several tunes on our dyno (BTW calibrated/verified by the Head engineer at DynoJet, it is a dyno trusted and verified by Eurotuner Magazine, European Car Magazine, Sport Compact Car Magazine, Eurocode Tuning, IPD Porsche plenums, Stuttgart Porsche Performance, BGB Porsche Motorsports Racing, Tanabe Racing, Tophers Racing, 034 Motorsports, as well as many many other race teams and mfg's. just as a background on our dyno)
Two of these tunes were run "blind" as we did not do the tune on these cars (MHP, Renntech). The two other tunes were loaded here. Powerchip, and Singh.
I overlayed the dyno's and to be honest, none of the tunes walked away from the other. I was really expecting MHP to demolish the other tunes, and I also had very high hopes for the Singh due to the claims I saw. None faired better than the others really.. they all overlayed almost identical, except the Renntech which had a lower HP/TQ output in the midrange, which was very surprising becuase this car also had the CF airbox, could have been due to being restricted by 91oct though.
The test conditions on our dyno always remain the same, which is a 2000rpm pull to redline in 4th gear, using SAE correction factor, and exact fan placement on all cars being the same for airflow. (we also have VERY expensive high velocity Dyno fans, built by DynoJet, not some Home Depot fans)
Test cars:
Renntech
Powerchip (what can be called evosport/powerchip, it's the same tune)
Singh
MHP
My conclusion? I think all the tuners are doing a great job, but at this point with 91 oct. fuel to level the playing field, I would say no tune has the upper hand yet. However with a proper race fuel mix, there is a possibility that there might be some HP variations in output due to a more aggressive timing map. The other factor I am going to start exploring is lower T-stat, and the effects it has on the dyno. So far, what I'm seeing is there is a knock threshold with 91 oct. that these cars might be hitting that are possibly limiting the cars from producing more power, I will be methodically testing some of these theories in Jan.
Last edited by Brian GT PRO; 12-17-2009 at 01:39 PM.
12-17-2009, 02:09 PM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hong Kong/Charlotte
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2010 C63
Why isn't Kleemann included in this post? You say, essentially, that all tunes are about the same, but don't name Kleemann specifically -- can we assume that your "all tunes" statement includes Kleemann?
12-17-2009, 02:19 PM
#5
No surprise to me as this same scenario of "what I sell is better because" is very common in the performance field.
Anyone with experience will wonder and doubt how one company magically found so much extra power and I have read various posts by people that have brought this up.
Thanks for being honest. In my opinion the performance market is more about cost, convenience, and customer service at this point BUT the end result of performance is not that much different. You get what you pay for in some cases but when you compare top tuners for street car tuning I don't see who has an edge as they all have or should have similar experience with no one having a special magic touch above the other.
Anyone with experience will wonder and doubt how one company magically found so much extra power and I have read various posts by people that have brought this up.
Thanks for being honest. In my opinion the performance market is more about cost, convenience, and customer service at this point BUT the end result of performance is not that much different. You get what you pay for in some cases but when you compare top tuners for street car tuning I don't see who has an edge as they all have or should have similar experience with no one having a special magic touch above the other.
12-17-2009, 02:34 PM
#7
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2009 - C63 Black/Black
Did you have the stock file reflashed onto the ECU prior to getting each tune? Meaning did you start from a stock file each time?
What versions of the tune did you get from each?
What versions of the tune did you get from each?
Trending Topics
12-17-2009, 02:59 PM
#9
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CA working like a slave
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
Right now, I'm working on our network (long story), but I will post the dyno's once I get the network situation under control possibly this afternoon late.
re: the tunes. Two of the cars we did not tune in house as I stated (Renntech and MHP), they were tuned elsewhere, and the MHP one was tuned directly by MHP (not a reseller), I cannot tell you what version of the tune, but I know it was done fairly recently we dyno'd here after about 500+ miles of hard driving adaptation. The Renntech, also was tuned elsewhere, so I have no idea what the deal was there or what version tune either. The end result is still the same however, all cars run under the same conditions etc., and all running the same fuel.
Kleeman not mentioned, nor is LET, as we have not had anyone sign up for one of these tunes, nor has anyone come by that has one of these tunes. I would love to dyno these tunes, anyone in So. Cal want to come by, I will dyno (1) car each for free to get the results.
re: the tunes. Two of the cars we did not tune in house as I stated (Renntech and MHP), they were tuned elsewhere, and the MHP one was tuned directly by MHP (not a reseller), I cannot tell you what version of the tune, but I know it was done fairly recently we dyno'd here after about 500+ miles of hard driving adaptation. The Renntech, also was tuned elsewhere, so I have no idea what the deal was there or what version tune either. The end result is still the same however, all cars run under the same conditions etc., and all running the same fuel.
Kleeman not mentioned, nor is LET, as we have not had anyone sign up for one of these tunes, nor has anyone come by that has one of these tunes. I would love to dyno these tunes, anyone in So. Cal want to come by, I will dyno (1) car each for free to get the results.
12-17-2009, 03:05 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hong Kong/Charlotte
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2010 C63
12-17-2009, 03:07 PM
#11
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CA working like a slave
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
12-17-2009, 07:07 PM
#14
MBWorld Fanatic!
Brian: Thank you for going out on the limb here. You just confirmed what I heard a couple of months back from another reputable source. Kinda of what I was gearing towards in my old tune thread.
Last edited by Sincity; 12-17-2009 at 07:11 PM.
12-17-2009, 08:06 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GT3
Right now, I'm working on our network (long story), but I will post the dyno's once I get the network situation under control possibly this afternoon late.
re: the tunes. Two of the cars we did not tune in house as I stated (Renntech and MHP), they were tuned elsewhere, and the MHP one was tuned directly by MHP (not a reseller), I cannot tell you what version of the tune, but I know it was done fairly recently we dyno'd here after about 500+ miles of hard driving adaptation. The Renntech, also was tuned elsewhere, so I have no idea what the deal was there or what version tune either. The end result is still the same however, all cars run under the same conditions etc., and all running the same fuel.
Kleeman not mentioned, nor is LET, as we have not had anyone sign up for one of these tunes, nor has anyone come by that has one of these tunes. I would love to dyno these tunes, anyone in So. Cal want to come by, I will dyno (1) car each for free to get the results.
re: the tunes. Two of the cars we did not tune in house as I stated (Renntech and MHP), they were tuned elsewhere, and the MHP one was tuned directly by MHP (not a reseller), I cannot tell you what version of the tune, but I know it was done fairly recently we dyno'd here after about 500+ miles of hard driving adaptation. The Renntech, also was tuned elsewhere, so I have no idea what the deal was there or what version tune either. The end result is still the same however, all cars run under the same conditions etc., and all running the same fuel.
Kleeman not mentioned, nor is LET, as we have not had anyone sign up for one of these tunes, nor has anyone come by that has one of these tunes. I would love to dyno these tunes, anyone in So. Cal want to come by, I will dyno (1) car each for free to get the results.
12-17-2009, 08:09 PM
#16
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: California, USA
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
I don't mean to undermine your results in anyway, but haven't there been multiple members who have dynoed their MHP tunes and actually showed higher numbers than that of Powerchip and others? 
Also there seems to exist lots of track data showing similar results
Also there seems to exist lots of track data showing similar results
12-17-2009, 09:31 PM
#17
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: CA working like a slave
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C63 AMG Arctic w/ Stage 1 Tune, DoubleXX pipe, MCD-631X coming soon
No problem guys, but I'm just addressing this from an objective point of view. Regarding the versions of tunes, this is not my place, all I know is that someone brings me a car, that has a tune in it, they state they got somewhat recently, I assume it's the latest and greatest, I run the car with all of my base delta's, and go from there. The two other tunes, I did have control over, and I know for sure they are the latest and greatest. The results are what they are, and I'm not tooting ANYONE's horn, I'm merely giving some information that I've found, to help light the way, I'm not in any way drawing conclusions about anyone's tune, only what the dyno is showing me.
12-17-2009, 10:58 PM
#19
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2009 - C63 Black/Black
Thanks for the post Brian.
I also was certainty surprised with my results considering I went into this blindly and had no idea that I would even end up here posting the results. I was after all and still am very new to this forum and certainly new to “tunes” on an already fast car. I mean really how much faster can a tune be on a 451 hp car?
I started out doing my research using this forum and only after weeks of discovery; and calling/emailing different vendors did I finally pull the trigger. Note: I did not contact the final vendor until after trying the other 2 products first. I did this because the final vendor did not have as many users using their product as the other did. I went with the bigger guys instead because I was not familiar with Vendor M.
So I finally decided to go with Vendor K’s product. Once I got the flash I went to the dyno and I was not happy with the results. I do have a post dyno done to get a true delta. I did not get the results that were posted on their website or what I was told I should get. After a few days of complaining and talking to the vendor they finally agreed to return.
The second flash from Vendor R seemed more promising. Once I got the tune I did the normal break in and then off to the dyno. I did get better results from the dyno and the felt a bit faster and more responsive shifting etc. The dyno numbers showed gains over the previous vendor but not what I was told I should get. To this day I’m still trying to get my full refund.
Both vendors said there flashes were done correctly and they both reviewed their internal audit files to make sure and also checked with the programmers.
The last tune provided exactly what I was expecting. Call this Vendor M. The delta gains between STOCK and Vendor M was 66rwhp and 24rwtq.
These are real numbers and all done on the same dyno with the same operator.
Summation:
Stock Numbers: 357hp & 360tq
Vendor K 393hp & 367tq
Vendor R 411hp & 367tq
Vendor M 424hp & 384t
There are owners on this site that have had GREAT success with other vendors and I have nothing against anyone else’s products or results.
I did not test these products with any intentions of becoming a distributor of the products however I was impressed with the gains and advertised results so I figured I would spread the word.
Bottom Line: You can’t go wrong with any vendors ecu tune as long as YOU are happy with the results!
I also was certainty surprised with my results considering I went into this blindly and had no idea that I would even end up here posting the results. I was after all and still am very new to this forum and certainly new to “tunes” on an already fast car. I mean really how much faster can a tune be on a 451 hp car?
I started out doing my research using this forum and only after weeks of discovery; and calling/emailing different vendors did I finally pull the trigger. Note: I did not contact the final vendor until after trying the other 2 products first. I did this because the final vendor did not have as many users using their product as the other did. I went with the bigger guys instead because I was not familiar with Vendor M.
So I finally decided to go with Vendor K’s product. Once I got the flash I went to the dyno and I was not happy with the results. I do have a post dyno done to get a true delta. I did not get the results that were posted on their website or what I was told I should get. After a few days of complaining and talking to the vendor they finally agreed to return.
The second flash from Vendor R seemed more promising. Once I got the tune I did the normal break in and then off to the dyno. I did get better results from the dyno and the felt a bit faster and more responsive shifting etc. The dyno numbers showed gains over the previous vendor but not what I was told I should get. To this day I’m still trying to get my full refund.
Both vendors said there flashes were done correctly and they both reviewed their internal audit files to make sure and also checked with the programmers.
The last tune provided exactly what I was expecting. Call this Vendor M. The delta gains between STOCK and Vendor M was 66rwhp and 24rwtq.
These are real numbers and all done on the same dyno with the same operator.
Summation:
Stock Numbers: 357hp & 360tq
Vendor K 393hp & 367tq
Vendor R 411hp & 367tq
Vendor M 424hp & 384t
There are owners on this site that have had GREAT success with other vendors and I have nothing against anyone else’s products or results.
I did not test these products with any intentions of becoming a distributor of the products however I was impressed with the gains and advertised results so I figured I would spread the word.
Bottom Line: You can’t go wrong with any vendors ecu tune as long as YOU are happy with the results!
12-17-2009, 11:17 PM
#21
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
08 e90 m3/09 c63/ 06 cls55 /
Thanks for the post Brian.
I also was certainty surprised with my results considering I went into this blindly and had no idea that I would even end up here posting the results. I was after all and still am very new to this forum and certainly new to “tunes” on an already fast car. I mean really how much faster can a tune be on a 451 hp car?
I started out doing my research using this forum and only after weeks of discovery; and calling/emailing different vendors did I finally pull the trigger. Note: I did not contact the final vendor until after trying the other 2 products first. I did this because the final vendor did not have as many users using their product as the other did. I went with the bigger guys instead because I was not familiar with Vendor M.
So I finally decided to go with Vendor K’s product. Once I got the flash I went to the dyno and I was not happy with the results. I do have a post dyno done to get a true delta. I did not get the results that were posted on their website or what I was told I should get. After a few days of complaining and talking to the vendor they finally agreed to return.
The second flash from Vendor R seemed more promising. Once I got the tune I did the normal break in and then off to the dyno. I did get better results from the dyno and the felt a bit faster and more responsive shifting etc. The dyno numbers showed gains over the previous vendor but not what I was told I should get. To this day I’m still trying to get my full refund.
Both vendors said there flashes were done correctly and they both reviewed their internal audit files to make sure and also checked with the programmers.
The last tune provided exactly what I was expecting. Call this Vendor M. The delta gains between STOCK and Vendor M was 66rwhp and 24rwtq.
These are real numbers and all done on the same dyno with the same operator.
Summation:
Stock Numbers: 357hp & 360tq
Vendor K 393hp & 367tq
Vendor R 411hp & 367tq
Vendor M 424hp & 384t
There are owners on this site that have had GREAT success with other vendors and I have nothing against anyone else’s products or results.
I did not test these products with any intentions of becoming a distributor of the products however I was impressed with the gains and advertised results so I figured I would spread the word.
Bottom Line: You can’t go wrong with any vendors ecu tune as long as YOU are happy with the results!
I also was certainty surprised with my results considering I went into this blindly and had no idea that I would even end up here posting the results. I was after all and still am very new to this forum and certainly new to “tunes” on an already fast car. I mean really how much faster can a tune be on a 451 hp car?
I started out doing my research using this forum and only after weeks of discovery; and calling/emailing different vendors did I finally pull the trigger. Note: I did not contact the final vendor until after trying the other 2 products first. I did this because the final vendor did not have as many users using their product as the other did. I went with the bigger guys instead because I was not familiar with Vendor M.
So I finally decided to go with Vendor K’s product. Once I got the flash I went to the dyno and I was not happy with the results. I do have a post dyno done to get a true delta. I did not get the results that were posted on their website or what I was told I should get. After a few days of complaining and talking to the vendor they finally agreed to return.
The second flash from Vendor R seemed more promising. Once I got the tune I did the normal break in and then off to the dyno. I did get better results from the dyno and the felt a bit faster and more responsive shifting etc. The dyno numbers showed gains over the previous vendor but not what I was told I should get. To this day I’m still trying to get my full refund.
Both vendors said there flashes were done correctly and they both reviewed their internal audit files to make sure and also checked with the programmers.
The last tune provided exactly what I was expecting. Call this Vendor M. The delta gains between STOCK and Vendor M was 66rwhp and 24rwtq.
These are real numbers and all done on the same dyno with the same operator.
Summation:
Stock Numbers: 357hp & 360tq
Vendor K 393hp & 367tq
Vendor R 411hp & 367tq
Vendor M 424hp & 384t
There are owners on this site that have had GREAT success with other vendors and I have nothing against anyone else’s products or results.
I did not test these products with any intentions of becoming a distributor of the products however I was impressed with the gains and advertised results so I figured I would spread the word.
Bottom Line: You can’t go wrong with any vendors ecu tune as long as YOU are happy with the results!
12-18-2009, 12:56 AM
#22
Brian,
Thank you for breaking that down so succinctly and unbiasedly. Shame some other commenters/vendors tried to turn it into a sales pitch. (Is there a smilie for "thumbs down"?)
From what I've learned lately, a properly performed dyno tune will own any canned tune hands down. Where do I sign up for one of those?
Josh
Thank you for breaking that down so succinctly and unbiasedly. Shame some other commenters/vendors tried to turn it into a sales pitch. (Is there a smilie for "thumbs down"?)
From what I've learned lately, a properly performed dyno tune will own any canned tune hands down. Where do I sign up for one of those?
Josh
12-18-2009, 07:34 AM
#24
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
2014 Lotus Evora S
Very useful Brian. Thanks. I have a friend who has Renntech Stage 2 and I have Kleemann 1 and we dyno'd both cars one after another on the same machine. The results were quite identical all the way on the curve. Max output was also quite similar, just below 425 whp.
I certainly encourage you to complete your study by adding Kleemann and LET.
I certainly encourage you to complete your study by adding Kleemann and LET.
12-18-2009, 10:11 AM
#25
MBWorld Fanatic!
Brian,
Thank you for breaking that down so succinctly and unbiasedly. Shame some other commenters/vendors tried to turn it into a sales pitch. (Is there a smilie for "thumbs down"?)
From what I've learned lately, a properly performed dyno tune will own any canned tune hands down. Where do I sign up for one of those?
Josh
Thank you for breaking that down so succinctly and unbiasedly. Shame some other commenters/vendors tried to turn it into a sales pitch. (Is there a smilie for "thumbs down"?)
From what I've learned lately, a properly performed dyno tune will own any canned tune hands down. Where do I sign up for one of those?
Josh
On the other hand, the products he deals in ARE the cheapest to install, so without really giving the pitch he is swaying money conscious people his way and telling them he can give them the same results as the more expensive product.
If this was a Renntech sponsor posting this thread it could be taken differently... but that wouldnt happen because they do indeed have the most expensive ECU flash.
