Brad, I was only stating observations based on what we have witnessed at the track to date. Josh was indeed new to drag racing but so was Keith, mthis, and others who were running M.H.P parts. Also, Phil was at the same Famoso event (he is a relatively experienced driver) yet was only running ETs between 12.4 to 12.7 all day long (by the way, he only had the Powerchip tune)

Again, I was only gathering information based on what we have seen at the track so far. I assume Powerchip has sold far more tunes than M.H.P due to lower price point, yet not one single Powerchip-tuned car had posted success at the track while the very few M.H.P. cars seem to continue to push extremely hard. Personally, I would've thought that the very few AMG owners who do go through all the trouble of modding their cars to extract so much more power out of them to, at the very least, take it to the track even just once. Moreover, the M.H.P. car was driven by Andy himself and was witnessed by other respected members on the boards and nobody questioned his runs, mods, setup, etc.... nor did they question Keith's runs or mthis runs Anyways, regardless of the current data set, we have another Famoso event coming up soon, and maybe the outcome will be different. In fact, I'm sure it will be, as I really do believe Josh will break into the 11s

I wasn't even talking about quickest/fastest cars, I was only referring to tune only or tune + headers.

I'm not sure any of the other 63s were custom dyno tuned let alone as much as Jrcart's. Also, his wheels are not just light, they were the lightest and best wheels on the market at the time. But I'm not even comparing the CLK63 black to the C63. I was trying to compare similarly modded C63s.

The Evosport headers look great and I'm very surprised the RennTech ones look like they do

 

My two-cents'-worth:

Leaving all other tuners out of it for the moment, the closest apples-to-apples comparison is reviewing the best (N/A) of both the full bolt-ons evo/PC CLK63BS vs. the full bolt-ons evo/PC C63. Now, we all know that jrcart's Black Series has experienced awesome amounts of testing and R&D - but so has C63 Guy's C63, which easily has $20k+ worth of performance-enhancing hardware and software from evo/PC.

To-date, for whatever reasons, that has not translated performance-wise very positively for the C63:

Vehicle: evo/PC CLK63BS......evo/PC C63
60'................1.5x................1.8x
1/4 ET...........11.2x...............12.1x
1/4 Trap........127.x...............117.x

Now, if you want to compare the evo/PC C63 to other C63s (i.e. staying with the same platform), the 60' time isn't too bad... undoubtedly assisted by those meaty rear tires, but I think anyone "in-the-know" on these vehicles would be hard-pressed to claim the ET and Trap as anything other than a bit disappointing for the given level of modifications to a vehicle allegedly making around 600 brake horsepower.

Above, jrcart makes the large assumption that because evo/PC has helped him achieve admirable, remarkable performance in his Black Series, that "no other tuner is even close" for tuning all variants of 63 AMGs. The data doesn't seem to support that assertion. To me, the question is not "if XYZ's C63 tuning is so good, why are they .250 off my best CLK63BS (N/A) ET?" - the question is "why is the evo/PC CLK63BS roughly a SECOND quicker and TEN MPH faster than the comparable evo/PC C63?"

 

Again, you HAVE to standardize drivers, experience and tires in order for it to be a fair comaprison, if you don't you are fooling yourself and those that read it.

Your "DATA" is only a small sample of those that 1/4 mile race their cars. How many AMG owners do you think that is? My guess is .01% if that many.

As to compare the C and CLK with our mods, the answer lies in the variables - tires, driver, experience.

pure street tires v. drag slicks
very experienced driver v. first time

Anyone that thinks this is not a real difference is crazy!

Thanks
Brad

BTW - a 63 is a 63. Anyone that thinks that performance of one 63 chasiss does not translate to another is again fooling themselves. They are the same motors with minor differences in stock form, but modified they are all essentially the same.

 

Brad,

Why is "data" in quotes? Are you stating that it's somehow not "data"? And why are you calling it mine?

I agree that drivers, experience (although, those are kind of the same thing), and tires can make a difference - as can differing tracks, weather conditions, etc. That said... driver/experience seems to make the biggest difference in 60' and ET; I've not seen a driver make a huge difference in observed trap speeds (esp. for an auto-tranny vehicle), and sticky drag slicks tend to actually lower trap speeds vs. street tires - in my limited experience.

10 MPH in the 1/4 mile trap speed is a monumental difference in performance for 63 AMGs modded to comparable levels... JMHO, others may disagree.

 

This is getting worse than the party lines in Congress

I for one am glad that we have a few choices and I have no problem running a Kleemann tune, *** pipes and probably some Evosport rotors in the not to distant future. While I am partial to the *** products and happen to like Andy as a person, that does not mean I have to harbor ill will to any other vendors or members using their products.

I did not think Mo's comments were "out of character" at all. He is always a voice of reason within our sometimes insane conversations and he was merely attesting to what is documented. I also believe that anyone going to the expense of putting long tubes on their car is going to make a pass or two and right now the results are somewhat biased. Moving forward, I can't wait to see the next generation of enhancements and with my daughter's wedding just a few weeks away, maybe I will be able to afford modding once again.

 

LOL - congrats on the wedding! My son is only 5 and I am already ready for him to support himself! =)

Thanks
brad

 

I believe that JRCart has offered to do just that MANY times. I don't bet money on racing or anything else. If you see post #81, I have a 5 year old, and with his birth my gambling days ended. =)

 

Is he ready to drive yet? I almost had him drive my E63 last January for some serious weight reduction He would've probably destroyed all our records in our own cars

 

He has been driving the golf cart and sitting in my lap since 2. 3 months ago, he drove our x5 steering wheel and pedals for the first time! Time for a kart!

He likes to go fast, but he also likes "crashing" - so he is not ready for a SOLO yet! lol

BTW - this dialog does not have to get contintious! Many of us are able to disagree and discuss without losing respect or calling each other names! I wish that everyone would be like this on the site, oh well!

 

These "which ECU tune is best" pissing matches are really counterproductive. I suggest that we pool resources and commission the development of an intake /fuel management system that can produce significant gains. I suggest a Kinsler manifold / injection setup ala the C6R unit and a dedicated engine management system from Pi Research or MOTEC. Gains over the best ECU reflash should approximate a well tuned carbureted engine or about 5HP/L and retain all the benefits of EFI.

Any takers?

 

Keith,

Yes, happy to race anytime, I already posted that Josh is up for it anytime (the last line in post #73).

Again, as Simon posted, I had nothing to do with the decision that was made today regarding the other vendor. It was done without my involvement.

Thanks
Brad

 

LOL.... he would still do better than my friend who almost hit the wall at Famoso I would like to see you guys again whenever there's a chance.... maybe next year

I agree with you on this 100%..... I personally don't lose respect for someone because I disagree with him or her regardless of the topic. And I don't lose my temper easily either despite the too many hostile arguments that's been taking place on the boards lately, so I understand exactly what you are trying to say. I really respect you for that comment and hope I did not lose your respect either I am always up for a healthy discussion

 

Hey Lou! As we spoke about, I am working this now! =)

Back at ya! Far too many take things here WAY too far!

 

I am always down for fun competition. We should arrange a tuner shoot out with a magazine - dyno, road track and 1/4 mile (like the EuroTuner shoot out we have done many times). That will give more even results!

A more even race would be a car with the same mods v. another with the same mods, but oh well - it is always fun to run and see what people are doing!

Thanks
Brad

 

We have a Famoso event coming up on January 9th.... DA will be between 0 and 200 ft with high temps of 58 F. I would like this race to go down without any money involved.... a race for just the title in order to keep things more friendly.

 

Brad,
I would be glad to run an Evosport C63 for fun. Lets set up a track rental soon and meet and race.

 

Thank you for the invite. However, I have a managers meeting that week so I can't make that weekend. However, I am sure we can make it another time.

 

What happened to the term "fun" in all of this. All tunes are within minimal hp of each other. So 1 car is .2 tenths quicker, wow. Do you build your car for other peoples applauses or for you own enjoyment? i think thats were the line is crossed. I love my c63, and i find it appreciating to see faster c63's then mine, as it gives me encouragement and to know that those times are possible.

 

Mo, BINGO! you hit the nail on the head and reitterated the point I have been trying to make on this thread all along...R&D and experience, no tuner that I am aware of has as much actual engineering R&D on a 63 than evosport and those results are clear when looking at my dyno numbers, 1/4 mile times and lap times on road courses.

Mo, you know I track my BS as much or more than just about anyone on MB World, I'm not affraid to haul my car from coast to coast and beat the snot out of it. I have run at multiple MB events which have been organized by various people right here on MB World. I've run the BS at more than 10 drag strips and a half dozen different road courses and never once has ANY 63 come close to my times, on many occasions I had the quickest over MB at an event, in fact I believe I had the quickest MB at the event you put together at Famoso last January, If my memory serves me correctly the only car to outgun me that day was a heavily modded AWD Turbo P Car.

All I am saying is if MHP stuff is so far superior why don't they have the numbers and records to back it up? Talk is cheap, you have seen me set and break records with your own two eyes. People can choose who they want as a tuner, but if I was new to the 63 game I would go with the highest performing and most proven product available and at this point in time that is evosport products. If and when something better comes along you will probably see it on my car, but until then it's evosport all the way.

As for forced induction, no, already looked into it nearly two years ago, it is not a good option for this motor. I already told you what is next for my motor, it's gonna be another game changer.

 

I'll run you for bragging rights, but I think large cash wagers tend to make things a little more exciting for everyone, don't you? I invited you to a private track day in Houston in late February but you had some lame excuse about wanting to run "at a fast track like Atco". That just goes to show you how little you know about drag racing because HRP in Feb is about as fast as you are going to find in North America, track elevation of 38ft and negative DA is almost a given...furthermore, the track location should not matter since it will be a head-to-head race both cars subjected to the same conditions, I'll even give you lane choice in a best of three or single race, you decide.

 

am sorry in advance for what i will say i've been reading alot of your posts you think that u r god and u have the fastest 63 i am willing to rACE u in feb any place u want say it and i will be there am new in this website and from the posts i read dadsc63 is the man and all of us know...i want to race you but without NOS and shall we see who wons.as i said am sorry in advance...

 

...Name your price big man, you are attempting to call out the wrong person. Just to be straight, you are talking about running your C63 against my CLK Black Series, neither of us are allowed to run nitrous, right? I'll personally let you disconnect the bottle and solenoids if you wish, I don't need any claims or accusations that I cheated after I beat you. LOL, I don't even know what mods you have, nor do I care, I am that confident.

BTW, Houston last weekend in Feb.

 

I totally agree with you. Anyways drag racing is still a little bit dull and it would be much more fun to see all you guys on a track somewhere race it out (with a camera in each car). This way we can see who has the best driver/car combo. Building a powerful car only requires money, not skill, unless you do everything in house =) A track will seperate the boys from the men!

Just my 2¢

 

Jim,
FWIW - I do know drag racing and have been at it a long time. Don't appreciate the condescending comment which seems to be your normal mode of operation for some reason. However, my comment about MIR and ATCO is because they can have -1500 to -2000 DA and we both know that equates to record times. All I was saying is if I am going to travel that far lets set some records, not run similar times to what we already have. The last time I ran here was two weeks ago and the DA was -200 so we had great weather for Florida. I am sure we will meet sometime and you may beat me but at least I'll give it a run. Larger, heavier, C63 against a Phenom CLK63 Black Series. I always say, if you are going down, go down against the best.

 

Jim, what I'm trying to say is that the MHP stuff is indeed showing the better numbers and records on the track for the C63 (at least for now). And they have shown those record numbers not only one car as in the case with your car, but they actually showed it on several different customers' cars throughout different parts of the country who in turn showed an immense success with track numbers, dyno numbers, 60 to 130 numbers, high speed runs, texas mile, countless videos, etc....

Once MHP does get a Black Series customer who is willing to dedicate the time and money you did to transform his/her car, I predict they will overtake your records as well (given the driver is at least as skilled/dedicated or should I say addicted as you ).

Off topic fun: that twin-turbo Porsche that ran 10.8x @ 136 mph last January at Famoso was only pushing 570 whp (no nos)..... guess what he is putting down now? He is putting down close to 1100 whp and did the mile at 221 mph. I predict, he'll trap at least 150 mph next time out. And he's supposedly not done. I think the tuner is aiming for 1400 whp! It will be very interesting event at Famoso on the 9th.... come on over and have some fun