Leasing options/questions
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From: Bellevue, WA
'10 C63 AMG P31, '88 Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe, '78 Toyota FJ40, '10 Audi Q7 TDi
Leasing options/questions
I'm trying to decode an lease option my dealer is giving me.
What does "L.E.V. %" mean? They are offering 49.00%.
Is the "VSC Tax" @ 9.5% the lending rate?
Thanks.
What does "L.E.V. %" mean? They are offering 49.00%.
Is the "VSC Tax" @ 9.5% the lending rate?
Thanks.
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I beleive it means Lease End Value, so the value of your car at the end of the lease is 49% of its sticker price, not so good, the other number sounds like the rate at which they are lease the car at, which seems high....take into consideration that I am in Canada and am comparing to the numbers here, regardless, they dont seem to good.
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Leasing sucks!! Just finance it. If you cant afford the payment getting a 6 or 7 year loan is better than a lease.
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From: Thick Ascending Limb
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Leasing a vehicle has become a little less favorable the past year or so. Lease rates on AMG vehicles are particularly bad. That being said if you can lease one through your business then it is more reasonable.
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Yes
Except when the car in 3 years is worth $5-$10k less than you owe on it. As these AMG cars tend to do....
Leasing is a great option for those who dont want to keep the car longer than 2/3 years and dont want to deal with selling it. The fact that these cars depreciate like rocks and carry the risk of being underwater depending on down payment size & length of your finance term, leasing becomes almost mandatory if the above scenario describes you.
Leasing is a great option for those who dont want to keep the car longer than 2/3 years and dont want to deal with selling it. The fact that these cars depreciate like rocks and carry the risk of being underwater depending on down payment size & length of your finance term, leasing becomes almost mandatory if the above scenario describes you.
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I beleive it means Lease End Value, so the value of your car at the end of the lease is 49% of its sticker price, not so good, the other number sounds like the rate at which they are lease the car at, which seems high....take into consideration that I am in Canada and am comparing to the numbers here, regardless, they dont seem to good.
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From: Thick Ascending Limb
2017 BMW X5M DG/AB
Present MB USA lease rates:
2010 Mercedes C63 AMG
24 Month – Residual 57% of MSRP – .00365 Base Rate
36 Month – Residual 51% of MSRP – .00330 Base Rate
48 Month – Residual 44% of MSRP – .00330 Base Rate
60 Month – Residual 39% of MSRP – .00330 Base Rate
Residuals posted are for 15K miles/year. Add 2% to Residual for 12k mi/yr and 3% for 10k mi/yr on all terms
2010 Mercedes C63 AMG
24 Month – Residual 57% of MSRP – .00365 Base Rate
36 Month – Residual 51% of MSRP – .00330 Base Rate
48 Month – Residual 44% of MSRP – .00330 Base Rate
60 Month – Residual 39% of MSRP – .00330 Base Rate
Residuals posted are for 15K miles/year. Add 2% to Residual for 12k mi/yr and 3% for 10k mi/yr on all terms
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Except when the car in 3 years is worth $5-$10k less than you owe on it. As these AMG cars tend to do....
Leasing is a great option for those who dont want to keep the car longer than 2/3 years and dont want to deal with selling it. The fact that these cars depreciate like rocks and carry the risk of being underwater depending on down payment size & length of your finance term, leasing becomes almost mandatory if the above scenario describes you.
Leasing is a great option for those who dont want to keep the car longer than 2/3 years and dont want to deal with selling it. The fact that these cars depreciate like rocks and carry the risk of being underwater depending on down payment size & length of your finance term, leasing becomes almost mandatory if the above scenario describes you.
In most cases with the proper down payment and loan term you will not be upside down at any point. Most like break even or if you put nothing down at purchase be upside down about 1-2K.
There is no way out of a lease. If 2 years from now you decide you don’t want the car anymore and you have 2 years left your screwed. Not the case with a finance. You can bail out at any time. You also don’t have mileage constrictions. With you lease you are 100% guaranteed to be upside down if you try to sell your way out of the lease. Your only hope is a lease transfer. Good luck with that.
In my opinion if you’re the leasing type, take a long term loan to keep the payments down. Cheaper than lease payments. Then sell the car when your done with it. If you sell within 2 -3 years and follow the same 10K a year that you would on a lease you will break even on payment.
At least with the finance you have a bail out scenario. You will lose a hell of alot more money trying to turn in a lease before the contract is up.
This opinion is based on many leases and purchases throughout my life. I even did a smartbuy. The worst lease of all.
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Yes
In most cases with the proper down payment and loan term you will not be upside down at any point. Most like break even or if you put nothing down at purchase be upside down about 1-2K.
After 3 years of $1400 a month he paid a total of $50k in payments. With 2 years left on the schedule he owes approximately $40k lets say.
Real world scenario - he would get $35k for the car. So he is $5k in the hole. Total amount paid to drive the car for 3 years? $15k down + $50k in payments + $5k upside down = $70k.
If he had leased at, say $1750 a month with 0 down for 36 months - total cost to drive that car for 3 years - $63k. PLUS he would have zero hassle with selling the car (which is worth a ton to some people), no worries about the car being out of warranty, AND 6 months before his lease expires, he'll get a call from MB offering to transfer the rest of his payments to a new car if he jumps into an E63.
Now if you KNOW you wont be driving the car longer than 3 yrs, why would you NOT save the $7k AND keep the $15k you put down in the bank earning interest? Even if that $7k is $2k...or $1k...saved money is saved money. I have never owned a car longer than 3 years. This is my favorite car Ive ever owned. Even that being the case, I know in 3 years, I'm going to want something different. Leasing is perfect for me.
There is no way out of a lease. If 2 years from now you decide you don’t want the car anymore and you have 2 years left your screwed. Not the case with a finance. You can bail out at any time. You also don’t have mileage constrictions. With you lease you are 100% guaranteed to be upside down if you try to sell your way out of the lease. Your only hope is a lease transfer. Good luck with that.
By the way, if you think selling a 3yr old Benz is bad, try selling a 3 MONTH old Benz. Yes there are ways out, but selling a car you just bought is just as painful as doing a lease swap. I would even argue, financially, its MUCH worse.
In my opinion if you’re the leasing type, take a long term loan to keep the payments down. Cheaper than lease payments. Then sell the car when your done with it. If you sell within 2 -3 years and follow the same 10K a year that you would on a lease you will break even on payment.
Last edited by rory breaker; Feb 22, 2010 at 11:37 AM.
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Very well said Rory, I am of the exact same train of thought, all cars in my house will last no longer than 3 yrs, in the case of the AMG, i have a four year lease, but otherwise, buying a car is a no no in my family, never buy a depreciating asset unless you keep it for a long time.
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So take the guy who bought a 2006 E55 new in November 2006 for $95k out the door, taxes, tags everything. He put $15k down and pays $1400 a month lets say.
5 year loan 15K down on 95K. 80K financed over 5 years at 5%. 1500 a month.
After 3 years of $1400 a month he paid a total of $50k in payments. With 2 years left on the schedule he owes approximately $40k lets say. 33K left on a 5 year loan at 5% after 36 payments.
Lets say after 4 years. 1 full year before the loan is done. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...fCarsQ5fTrucks
35K with 40K+ miles. Pretty accurate for my driving. Lots depend on mileage.
Real world scenario - he would get $35k for the car. So he is $5k in the hole. Total amount paid to drive the car for 3 years? $15k down + $50k in payments + $5k upside down = $70k.
He pays 80K financed and puts down 15K
35K for the car sold . He owes $16,198.91 after 48 payments. 72K in total payments. 18102 profit from the 35K sale. Plus 18k back so really 51K paid for the car.
If he had leased at, say $1750 a month with 0 down for 48 months - total cost to drive that car for 3 years - $63k. PLUS he would have zero hassle with selling the car (which is worth a ton to some people), no worries about the car being out of warranty, AND 6 months before his lease expires, he'll get a call from MB offering to transfer the rest of his payments to a new car if he jumps into an E63.
48 month lease. 84K total paid for the car. Drop off the keys and leave. for 33K more paid. Aside from that a 4 year lease would cost you more than $1750.
Now if you KNOW you wont be driving the car longer than 3 yrs, why would you NOT save the $7k AND keep the $15k you put down in the bank earning interest? Even if that $7k is $2k...or $1k...saved money is saved money. I have never owned a car longer than 3 years. This is my favorite car Ive ever owned. Even that being the case, I know in 3 years, I'm going to want something different. Leasing is perfect for me.
No money down changes things. 95K financed over 5 years, you will owe $19,236.20 at 48 months. Selling the car for 35K you will make 15K in profit at the time of sale.
No money down 86400 total paid in 48 months. 1792 monthly payment. 15K in profit. 51K in total paid for the car.
No argument, other than swapalease, leasetrader, etc. So technically there ARE ways out of a lease, this does not help my argument b/c it defeats the purpose but just making sure people are clear, there is a way out.
There are ways out. It is VERY difficult if not impossible to get out of it. Trust me, ive been down this road. You just have to suck it up and finish the lease or turn it in and take a huge beating.
By the way, if you think selling a 3yr old Benz is bad, try selling a 3 MONTH old Benz. Yes there are ways out, but selling a car you just bought is just as painful as doing a lease swap. I would even argue, financially, its MUCH worse.
Of course, but thats back to my first reply. Cars are terrible investments.
Except you still have all the liability and hassle of OWNING the car versus leasing it. I scrutinized this option heavily, and as it turned out, it was like $30 more a month to lease vs buy. That $1k I burnt by leasing bought me the convenience of not worrying at all about plummeting market values...when the lease is up, hand over the keys and say buh bye.
What liability? You are still responsible for the leased car. You need to pay to fix it if you wreck it. You need to pay for tires, breaks, service ect. All of it is your liability.
When the lease is up you will have paid
Leases used to be good when interest rates were high. They are so low now a lease doesnt even remotely make sense.
5 year loan 15K down on 95K. 80K financed over 5 years at 5%. 1500 a month.
After 3 years of $1400 a month he paid a total of $50k in payments. With 2 years left on the schedule he owes approximately $40k lets say. 33K left on a 5 year loan at 5% after 36 payments.
Lets say after 4 years. 1 full year before the loan is done. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...fCarsQ5fTrucks
35K with 40K+ miles. Pretty accurate for my driving. Lots depend on mileage.
Real world scenario - he would get $35k for the car. So he is $5k in the hole. Total amount paid to drive the car for 3 years? $15k down + $50k in payments + $5k upside down = $70k.
He pays 80K financed and puts down 15K
35K for the car sold . He owes $16,198.91 after 48 payments. 72K in total payments. 18102 profit from the 35K sale. Plus 18k back so really 51K paid for the car.
If he had leased at, say $1750 a month with 0 down for 48 months - total cost to drive that car for 3 years - $63k. PLUS he would have zero hassle with selling the car (which is worth a ton to some people), no worries about the car being out of warranty, AND 6 months before his lease expires, he'll get a call from MB offering to transfer the rest of his payments to a new car if he jumps into an E63.
48 month lease. 84K total paid for the car. Drop off the keys and leave. for 33K more paid. Aside from that a 4 year lease would cost you more than $1750.
Now if you KNOW you wont be driving the car longer than 3 yrs, why would you NOT save the $7k AND keep the $15k you put down in the bank earning interest? Even if that $7k is $2k...or $1k...saved money is saved money. I have never owned a car longer than 3 years. This is my favorite car Ive ever owned. Even that being the case, I know in 3 years, I'm going to want something different. Leasing is perfect for me.
No money down changes things. 95K financed over 5 years, you will owe $19,236.20 at 48 months. Selling the car for 35K you will make 15K in profit at the time of sale.
No money down 86400 total paid in 48 months. 1792 monthly payment. 15K in profit. 51K in total paid for the car.
No argument, other than swapalease, leasetrader, etc. So technically there ARE ways out of a lease, this does not help my argument b/c it defeats the purpose but just making sure people are clear, there is a way out.
There are ways out. It is VERY difficult if not impossible to get out of it. Trust me, ive been down this road. You just have to suck it up and finish the lease or turn it in and take a huge beating.
By the way, if you think selling a 3yr old Benz is bad, try selling a 3 MONTH old Benz. Yes there are ways out, but selling a car you just bought is just as painful as doing a lease swap. I would even argue, financially, its MUCH worse.
Of course, but thats back to my first reply. Cars are terrible investments.
Except you still have all the liability and hassle of OWNING the car versus leasing it. I scrutinized this option heavily, and as it turned out, it was like $30 more a month to lease vs buy. That $1k I burnt by leasing bought me the convenience of not worrying at all about plummeting market values...when the lease is up, hand over the keys and say buh bye.
What liability? You are still responsible for the leased car. You need to pay to fix it if you wreck it. You need to pay for tires, breaks, service ect. All of it is your liability.
When the lease is up you will have paid
Leases used to be good when interest rates were high. They are so low now a lease doesnt even remotely make sense.
Last edited by propain; Feb 22, 2010 at 12:58 PM.
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Yes
We are now completely off base and discussing apples and oranges.
And here we are comparing a 4yr lease vs 4yrs of a 5yr finance. Huh?
Also, the ebay link you provided is a pipedream....look at what these cars are going for, market value, not what one person hopes to get on Ebay. $35k for that car aint happenin.
Let's use current rates and incorporate some controlled statistics in here:
$5k down
36k miles
$35k selling price in 3 years
With $5k down on a $95k E55, your lease payment will be $1732.
http://www.money-zine.com/Calculator...se-Calculator/
With $5k down on a $95k E55, your finance payment will be $1698.
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/...alculator.aspx
A fully optioned 06 E55 with ~36k miles on it is worth $35k - thats a fair price. And that likely won't be as easy as posting it and getting a buyer.
Now do the math on a 36 month lease versus selling the car in 36 months and tell me, knowing you WILL sell the car in 36 months, which one works out best.
Originally Posted by my original post
Leasing is a great option for those who dont want to keep the car longer than 2/3 years
Also, the ebay link you provided is a pipedream....look at what these cars are going for, market value, not what one person hopes to get on Ebay. $35k for that car aint happenin.
Let's use current rates and incorporate some controlled statistics in here:
$5k down
36k miles
$35k selling price in 3 years
With $5k down on a $95k E55, your lease payment will be $1732.
http://www.money-zine.com/Calculator...se-Calculator/
With $5k down on a $95k E55, your finance payment will be $1698.
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/...alculator.aspx
A fully optioned 06 E55 with ~36k miles on it is worth $35k - thats a fair price. And that likely won't be as easy as posting it and getting a buyer.
Now do the math on a 36 month lease versus selling the car in 36 months and tell me, knowing you WILL sell the car in 36 months, which one works out best.
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We are now completely off base and discussing apples and oranges.
Not at all. Im comparing a lease vs a buy. 48 month leases are very common. I gave you the sell price of a 2006 E55. A 4 year old car that probably has a 5 year finance on it.
In the Finance vs Lease at 48 month the 48 month finance is the WAY better option.
And here we are comparing a 4yr lease vs 4yrs of a 5yr finance. Huh?
Yes, 4 year lease vs a 5 year finance. I said in my previous post financing a car for longer than you plan on keeping it is a better way to keep the payments down LOWER than a lease and still own the car and still get something back. In most cases you would break even. Buy you have a huge tax break on your next purchase because you already paid the taxes on the orignal purchase. Thus if you have the dealer purchase your pre-owned car for 35K and you buy a 50K car you will only need to pay tax on 15K saving you thousands.
Also, the ebay link you provided is a pipedream....look at what these cars are going for, market value, not what one person hopes to get on Ebay. $35k for that car aint happenin.
That car has 45K miles so your probably right. 30K no question. Still ahead of what he owes on the car by about 15K or the amount of his down payment. Nowhere near upside down as you state you would be. For the person who did my scenario on a 5 year loan selling the car at the 4 year mark when the warranty expires with 40K miles you WILL get 30K for the car on a 2006. The amount owe with 15K down is only 16K. You will not only get your money back but the 15K you put down AND a tax break on your next purchase.
KBB got it at 33Kish. So yeah, take off about 3-5K off that price. You are still ahead of what you owe.
Let's use current rates and incorporate some controlled statistics in here:
$5k down
36k miles
$35k selling price in 3 years
In this case I would do a 4 year finance planning on selling in 3, but ok. Ill do it your way. 5 year finance.
With $5k down on a $95k E55, your lease payment will be $1732.
http://www.money-zine.com/Calculator...se-Calculator/
With $5k down on a $95k E55, your finance payment will be $1698.
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/...alculator.aspx
A fully optioned 06 E55 with ~36k miles on it is worth $35k - thats a fair price. And that likely won't be as easy as posting it and getting a buyer.
Thats 4 years not 3. You would have to compare a 2007. If you bought the car in March of 2006 and Sold the car in March of 2010 that is 48 payments. You would have to sell the 2006 in March of 2009 for it to be 36 payments.
Now do the math on a 36 month lease versus selling the car in 36 months and tell me, knowing you WILL sell the car in 36 months, which one works out best.
Lets do the easy one first. $67352 total payment for the car. Nothing to show for it. Come back to the dealer and come up with another 5K if you wanna stay at the same payment.
-----------------
To be fair to the calculations you would be need price out a 2007 E63 because that is a 3 year old car.
Currently on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...fCarsQ5fTrucks
43 bids so far and getting 40K as of now. Still almost a day left. He will most likely get close to his buy it now price of 45K. Lets say he does. LOTS of interest on the car even at 40K. 30K miles so that fair for 36 months of 10K a year limit of what a lease would be.
After 36 payments of $1698 he would owe $37,176.30 on his loan. He would sell the car for 45K and have $7824 left over.
His total payment cost is $66128 minus the amount he gets back so the total cost of owning the car was $58,304.
So lease: $67352 total payment
Finance: $58304 total payment
--------------------------------------
It cost you $9,000 more to lease the E63. You also paid $1,152 more in payments. You have nothing to show for it at trade in and get no tax benifits on your next purchase. You also need to come up with another 5K to put down on your next purchase.
Not at all. Im comparing a lease vs a buy. 48 month leases are very common. I gave you the sell price of a 2006 E55. A 4 year old car that probably has a 5 year finance on it.
In the Finance vs Lease at 48 month the 48 month finance is the WAY better option.
And here we are comparing a 4yr lease vs 4yrs of a 5yr finance. Huh?
Yes, 4 year lease vs a 5 year finance. I said in my previous post financing a car for longer than you plan on keeping it is a better way to keep the payments down LOWER than a lease and still own the car and still get something back. In most cases you would break even. Buy you have a huge tax break on your next purchase because you already paid the taxes on the orignal purchase. Thus if you have the dealer purchase your pre-owned car for 35K and you buy a 50K car you will only need to pay tax on 15K saving you thousands.
Also, the ebay link you provided is a pipedream....look at what these cars are going for, market value, not what one person hopes to get on Ebay. $35k for that car aint happenin.
That car has 45K miles so your probably right. 30K no question. Still ahead of what he owes on the car by about 15K or the amount of his down payment. Nowhere near upside down as you state you would be. For the person who did my scenario on a 5 year loan selling the car at the 4 year mark when the warranty expires with 40K miles you WILL get 30K for the car on a 2006. The amount owe with 15K down is only 16K. You will not only get your money back but the 15K you put down AND a tax break on your next purchase.
KBB got it at 33Kish. So yeah, take off about 3-5K off that price. You are still ahead of what you owe.
Let's use current rates and incorporate some controlled statistics in here:
$5k down
36k miles
$35k selling price in 3 years
In this case I would do a 4 year finance planning on selling in 3, but ok. Ill do it your way. 5 year finance.
With $5k down on a $95k E55, your lease payment will be $1732.
http://www.money-zine.com/Calculator...se-Calculator/
With $5k down on a $95k E55, your finance payment will be $1698.
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/...alculator.aspx
A fully optioned 06 E55 with ~36k miles on it is worth $35k - thats a fair price. And that likely won't be as easy as posting it and getting a buyer.
Thats 4 years not 3. You would have to compare a 2007. If you bought the car in March of 2006 and Sold the car in March of 2010 that is 48 payments. You would have to sell the 2006 in March of 2009 for it to be 36 payments.
Now do the math on a 36 month lease versus selling the car in 36 months and tell me, knowing you WILL sell the car in 36 months, which one works out best.
Lets do the easy one first. $67352 total payment for the car. Nothing to show for it. Come back to the dealer and come up with another 5K if you wanna stay at the same payment.
-----------------
To be fair to the calculations you would be need price out a 2007 E63 because that is a 3 year old car.
Currently on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...fCarsQ5fTrucks
43 bids so far and getting 40K as of now. Still almost a day left. He will most likely get close to his buy it now price of 45K. Lets say he does. LOTS of interest on the car even at 40K. 30K miles so that fair for 36 months of 10K a year limit of what a lease would be.
After 36 payments of $1698 he would owe $37,176.30 on his loan. He would sell the car for 45K and have $7824 left over.
His total payment cost is $66128 minus the amount he gets back so the total cost of owning the car was $58,304.
So lease: $67352 total payment
Finance: $58304 total payment
--------------------------------------
It cost you $9,000 more to lease the E63. You also paid $1,152 more in payments. You have nothing to show for it at trade in and get no tax benifits on your next purchase. You also need to come up with another 5K to put down on your next purchase.
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Except you still have all the liability and hassle of OWNING the car versus leasing it. I scrutinized this option heavily, and as it turned out, it was like $30 more a month to lease vs buy. That $1k I burnt by leasing bought me the convenience of not worrying at all about plummeting market values...when the lease is up, hand over the keys and say buh bye.
Sorry, I have to comment on this as well. When you say "not worrying about plummeting market values" how do you figure?
Your lease payment is based on an estimated plummeting value, and of course they will run the worse case scenario not the best. Wether you realize it or not you are selling your car back to the dealer at the time you sign your lease agreement. They are estimating what the car will be worth in 36 payments and 36K miles later. If you only drive the car 30K miles you paid for those extra 6K miles and the dealer says "Cha Ching!" because now the car is worth more and you paid for 6K miles you didn’t use. If you go over the mileage.. "Cha Ching!" again.
Last edited by propain; Feb 22, 2010 at 04:02 PM.
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Yes
Couple things:
1 - my lease payment example is for 12k miles a month. If you're comparing 10k miles a month in a finance, again, apples and oranges. Lets say $50 a month difference * 36 months = $1800. So we're down to $65.5k on the lease.
2 - $45k is stretching it - let's say he gets $40k, what the bids are at now. Also, that car was bought July of 2007, so really, we should be using July of 2010 prices given the warranty reflects that as well (which increases the value). That being said, assuming that in 5 months this is a $40k car is probably pretty fair. So decrease selling price by $5K.
Now we have:
Lease - $65,500
Finance - $66,128 - $2800 in equity = $63,328
Thats ASSUMING you can sell your car for that amount, ASSUMING you didnt get rear-ended by some soccer mom which devalued your car and makes it impossible to sell...who knows what else.
With all those assumptions...for $2000...I'll take my keys, walk over to the dealer, hand them back in, tell them to transfer my payments over to a 2010 E63 or whatever it will be, drive off and thank them, knowing I had to deal with ZERO hassle, ZERO tire kickers, ZERO ebay fees, ZERO craigslist time wasters, ZERO days seeing other cars depreciating making me worry about the value of mine sitting in the driveway.
To your comment about plummeting market values, now that I have executed the agreement on my car, i have zero cares about what happens with the 5.5L tt motor and how that affects resale of mine. Zero cares about a new facelift or a new body style coming out in 2012 when I would be selling my car that would drop the value. Zero cares about gas prices and how that could impact peoples desires to buy a gas guzzler. Zero cares about interest rates going to 10%+ in 3 years which will have a direct impact on the selling price of a car because now people need to pay so much more in interest...zero cares. In 30-36 months I will drive to the dealer, hand my keys in, and have the ultimate freedom of doing what I want.
1 - my lease payment example is for 12k miles a month. If you're comparing 10k miles a month in a finance, again, apples and oranges. Lets say $50 a month difference * 36 months = $1800. So we're down to $65.5k on the lease.
2 - $45k is stretching it - let's say he gets $40k, what the bids are at now. Also, that car was bought July of 2007, so really, we should be using July of 2010 prices given the warranty reflects that as well (which increases the value). That being said, assuming that in 5 months this is a $40k car is probably pretty fair. So decrease selling price by $5K.
Now we have:
Lease - $65,500
Finance - $66,128 - $2800 in equity = $63,328
Thats ASSUMING you can sell your car for that amount, ASSUMING you didnt get rear-ended by some soccer mom which devalued your car and makes it impossible to sell...who knows what else.
With all those assumptions...for $2000...I'll take my keys, walk over to the dealer, hand them back in, tell them to transfer my payments over to a 2010 E63 or whatever it will be, drive off and thank them, knowing I had to deal with ZERO hassle, ZERO tire kickers, ZERO ebay fees, ZERO craigslist time wasters, ZERO days seeing other cars depreciating making me worry about the value of mine sitting in the driveway.
To your comment about plummeting market values, now that I have executed the agreement on my car, i have zero cares about what happens with the 5.5L tt motor and how that affects resale of mine. Zero cares about a new facelift or a new body style coming out in 2012 when I would be selling my car that would drop the value. Zero cares about gas prices and how that could impact peoples desires to buy a gas guzzler. Zero cares about interest rates going to 10%+ in 3 years which will have a direct impact on the selling price of a car because now people need to pay so much more in interest...zero cares. In 30-36 months I will drive to the dealer, hand my keys in, and have the ultimate freedom of doing what I want.
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Couple things:
1 - my lease payment example is for 12k miles a month. If you're comparing 10k miles a month in a finance, again, apples and oranges. Lets say $50 a month difference * 36 months = $1800. So we're down to $65.5k on the lease.
You and your apples and oranges. I dont think you understand that expression that well.
You gave me the examples and the prices to use. I didnt change anything. The guy selling the E63 has 30K miles. I was just using it as sell compare. KBB has a trade in price of 46K for a 2007 E63 with 36K miles on it, trade in value, not private. That guy will get 45K for that car. But ill meet you in the middle as say he gets $42500.
2 - $45k is stretching it - let's say he gets $40k, what the bids are at now. Also, that car was bought July of 2007, so really, we should be using July of 2010 prices given the warranty reflects that as well (which increases the value). That being said, assuming that in 5 months this is a $40k car is probably pretty fair. So decrease selling price by $5K.
Now we have:
Lease - $65,500
Finance - $66,128 - $2800 in equity = $63,328
Why change your lease numbers? You are still at 67,352 with the 5K down.
$62804 is the total cost getting $42500 for the E63.
Thats ASSUMING you can sell your car for that amount, ASSUMING you didnt get rear-ended by some soccer mom which devalued your car and makes it impossible to sell...who knows what else.
That is the only reason to lease. Car accidents. If you wreck your car than it will look bad on the report. Then you will take a beating at trade in or sale.
With all those assumptions...for $2000...I'll take my keys, walk over to the dealer, hand them back in, tell them to transfer my payments over to a 2010 E63 or whatever it will be, drive off and thank them, knowing I had to deal with ZERO hassle, ZERO tire kickers, ZERO ebay fees, ZERO craigslist time wasters, ZERO days seeing other cars depreciating making me worry about the value of mine sitting in the driveway.
I will walk into my dealer and say " I want 42,500 for my car or ill find a dealer who will give it to me" I will take my 5K down payment and put it down on my new car, plus get a big tax break.
Again, you already paid for your the depreciation of your car before you know anything about the market. You are renting 50% of the cars value but paying the same amount of money to own it.
To your comment about plummeting market values, now that I have executed the agreement on my car, i have zero cares about what happens with the 5.5L tt motor and how that affects resale of mine. Zero cares about a new facelift or a new body style coming out in 2012 when I would be selling my car that would drop the value. Zero cares about gas prices and how that could impact peoples desires to buy a gas guzzler. Zero cares about interest rates going to 10%+ in 3 years which will have a direct impact on the selling price of a car because now people need to pay so much more in interest...zero cares. In 30-36 months I will drive to the dealer, hand my keys in, and have the ultimate freedom of doing what I want.
You dont have ultimate freedom.
I can do this tomorrow. You can not. You will have to wait 36 months to do it or go through hell trying to get someone to take over your lease.
If your so worried about car markets plunging than new car purchases arent for you.
My C63 if I sell it will be either even or ahead a few thousand. Maybe not, a few thousand im not worried about. Im not worried about it at all. I enjoy ultimate freedom of not being tied to a contract or milage restrictions. I also have a cheaper car payment than a lease.
1 - my lease payment example is for 12k miles a month. If you're comparing 10k miles a month in a finance, again, apples and oranges. Lets say $50 a month difference * 36 months = $1800. So we're down to $65.5k on the lease.
You and your apples and oranges. I dont think you understand that expression that well.
You gave me the examples and the prices to use. I didnt change anything. The guy selling the E63 has 30K miles. I was just using it as sell compare. KBB has a trade in price of 46K for a 2007 E63 with 36K miles on it, trade in value, not private. That guy will get 45K for that car. But ill meet you in the middle as say he gets $42500.
2 - $45k is stretching it - let's say he gets $40k, what the bids are at now. Also, that car was bought July of 2007, so really, we should be using July of 2010 prices given the warranty reflects that as well (which increases the value). That being said, assuming that in 5 months this is a $40k car is probably pretty fair. So decrease selling price by $5K.
Now we have:
Lease - $65,500
Finance - $66,128 - $2800 in equity = $63,328
Why change your lease numbers? You are still at 67,352 with the 5K down.
$62804 is the total cost getting $42500 for the E63.
Thats ASSUMING you can sell your car for that amount, ASSUMING you didnt get rear-ended by some soccer mom which devalued your car and makes it impossible to sell...who knows what else.
That is the only reason to lease. Car accidents. If you wreck your car than it will look bad on the report. Then you will take a beating at trade in or sale.
With all those assumptions...for $2000...I'll take my keys, walk over to the dealer, hand them back in, tell them to transfer my payments over to a 2010 E63 or whatever it will be, drive off and thank them, knowing I had to deal with ZERO hassle, ZERO tire kickers, ZERO ebay fees, ZERO craigslist time wasters, ZERO days seeing other cars depreciating making me worry about the value of mine sitting in the driveway.
I will walk into my dealer and say " I want 42,500 for my car or ill find a dealer who will give it to me" I will take my 5K down payment and put it down on my new car, plus get a big tax break.
Again, you already paid for your the depreciation of your car before you know anything about the market. You are renting 50% of the cars value but paying the same amount of money to own it.
To your comment about plummeting market values, now that I have executed the agreement on my car, i have zero cares about what happens with the 5.5L tt motor and how that affects resale of mine. Zero cares about a new facelift or a new body style coming out in 2012 when I would be selling my car that would drop the value. Zero cares about gas prices and how that could impact peoples desires to buy a gas guzzler. Zero cares about interest rates going to 10%+ in 3 years which will have a direct impact on the selling price of a car because now people need to pay so much more in interest...zero cares. In 30-36 months I will drive to the dealer, hand my keys in, and have the ultimate freedom of doing what I want.
You dont have ultimate freedom.
I can do this tomorrow. You can not. You will have to wait 36 months to do it or go through hell trying to get someone to take over your lease.
If your so worried about car markets plunging than new car purchases arent for you.
My C63 if I sell it will be either even or ahead a few thousand. Maybe not, a few thousand im not worried about. Im not worried about it at all. I enjoy ultimate freedom of not being tied to a contract or milage restrictions. I also have a cheaper car payment than a lease.You can play with the numbers all you like to get them to work for you. Im just giving you the facts. The reason a finance is better than a lease right now is due to interest rates being so damn low. I can get a car loan right now for 4.24 for christ sake. Also leases on an AMG are HORRIBLE. That is why you pay more. Traditionally you should be about 30% less than a finance when you lease. MB rates on leases are horrible.
Either way, We both drive a C63 so we both made a good decision!
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Yes
You and your apples and oranges. I dont think you understand that expression that well.
You gave me the examples and the prices to use. I didnt change anything. The guy selling the E63 has 30K miles. I was just using it as sell compare. KBB has a trade in price of 46K for a 2007 E63 with 36K miles on it, trade in value, not private. That guy will get 45K for that car. But ill meet you in the middle as say he gets $42500.
Why change your lease numbers? You are still at 67,352 with the 5K down.
That is the only reason to lease. Car accidents. If you wreck your car than it will look bad on the report. Then you will take a beating at trade in or sale.
I will walk into my dealer and say " I want 42,500 for my car or ill find a dealer who will give it to me" I will take my 5K down payment and put it down on my new car, plus get a big tax break.
You dont have ultimate freedom.
I can do this tomorrow. You can not. You will have to wait 36 months to do it or go through hell trying to get someone to take over your lease.
I can do this tomorrow. You can not. You will have to wait 36 months to do it or go through hell trying to get someone to take over your lease.
If your so worried about car markets plunging than new car purchases arent for you. My C63 if I sell it will be either even or ahead a few thousand. Maybe not, a few thousand im not worried about. Im not worried about it at all. I enjoy ultimate freedom of not being tied to a contract or milage restrictions. I also have a cheaper car payment than a lease.
Last edited by rory breaker; Feb 22, 2010 at 05:16 PM.
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I do, 100%. Comparing a lease payment on a car 12k vs a car 10k are 2 different things, 2 different payments, 2 different fruits. Apples and oranges. Please feel free to chime in if Im off base here. The payment is different.
You keep changing the rules and calling apples and oranges. You said sell the 2006 and were comparing it to 36 month lease but failed to realize that a 2006 was a 48 month turnin. So I correct the numbers due to your incorrect data and you call apples and oranges.
You give me numbers to use and I use them. I give you a sell price of a 2007 car and because it has 30K miles you now say its apples and oranges.
I give you KBB price on trade in value for the E63 with 36K miles and you say its worthless and say its apples and oranges.
KBB is irrelevant. Tell that to the member who sold me his 11 month old C55 for $38k when the trade in value was above that. Also, go ahead and do a completed items search for E63's. You'll see dozens that never hit their mark, dozens that fail selling buy it now, even for decent pricing. What does that mean? These cars are hard to sell used, period.
KBB is not irrelevant. Its a baseline. Ebay is NOT a dealer trade in. Galves is the best book value that dealers use so they can get the right AUCTION price. Not the market value. A 2007 E class with 36K miles sell for 30-35K. LOL. If you think a E63 with the same milage isnt getting 10K more your crazy.
See above. 10k mileage to match your example.
Right, 10K mileage lease means less payment. 30K mileage car means more money. They cancel each other out. But it seems you wanna take from peter but not give to paul.
Right. Freedom. Not the basis for a decision but an added bonus.
Freedom? To what? Crash into crap? Come on dude.
And he will laugh at you, holding an auction report to your face saying "i can get those all day long for $xxxxx"
Not so my friend. Trust me, you would be amazed how much room they have on new cars. They will take from one and give to another. They give more on the trade and charge more on the car or simply just take the hit because sales numbers mean almost as much as $$ to them. Trust me, I should write a book I buy cars so often. I know how to work the stealers.
A good example: How much was your C63?
Wrong. Because remember, again my OP "if you know you will keep your car for 2/3 years" - this is a moot point. In either scenario, the buyer KNOWS they will keep their car for 2/3 years. If they dont, they will either a) try to do a swapalease which is a pain or b) take the pain of losing a ton of money selling it early. So we will just take it out of the equation. Again, this ALL stems from my original statement of "if you know you'll keep your car 2/3 yrs"...
Fine, but in the end the finance has been proven to cost less money in payments and give back a better return. Even with you working the numbers more in your favor. So I guess your point of it being a better deal for the number was wrong.
First off new cars arent for me, you are correct. I just got a ridiculous deal on mine and thats why I bought it new. I have 15k a year, more than enough. You will be lucky to break even. Look at the guys who could barely get $20k for their loaded C55's back in late 09 3 yrs after buying and were posting up trying to get $33k, you think it's going to be better with the C63? I dont...not worth the risk to me.
How much you pay for your C63? New or a slightly used dealer car that never got registered? Whats your payment and term? You dont know the details of my purchase so I dont think you are in a position to say "You will be lucky to break even"
You keep changing the rules and calling apples and oranges. You said sell the 2006 and were comparing it to 36 month lease but failed to realize that a 2006 was a 48 month turnin. So I correct the numbers due to your incorrect data and you call apples and oranges.
You give me numbers to use and I use them. I give you a sell price of a 2007 car and because it has 30K miles you now say its apples and oranges.
I give you KBB price on trade in value for the E63 with 36K miles and you say its worthless and say its apples and oranges.
KBB is irrelevant. Tell that to the member who sold me his 11 month old C55 for $38k when the trade in value was above that. Also, go ahead and do a completed items search for E63's. You'll see dozens that never hit their mark, dozens that fail selling buy it now, even for decent pricing. What does that mean? These cars are hard to sell used, period.
KBB is not irrelevant. Its a baseline. Ebay is NOT a dealer trade in. Galves is the best book value that dealers use so they can get the right AUCTION price. Not the market value. A 2007 E class with 36K miles sell for 30-35K. LOL. If you think a E63 with the same milage isnt getting 10K more your crazy.
See above. 10k mileage to match your example.
Right, 10K mileage lease means less payment. 30K mileage car means more money. They cancel each other out. But it seems you wanna take from peter but not give to paul.
Right. Freedom. Not the basis for a decision but an added bonus.
Freedom? To what? Crash into crap? Come on dude.
And he will laugh at you, holding an auction report to your face saying "i can get those all day long for $xxxxx"
Not so my friend. Trust me, you would be amazed how much room they have on new cars. They will take from one and give to another. They give more on the trade and charge more on the car or simply just take the hit because sales numbers mean almost as much as $$ to them. Trust me, I should write a book I buy cars so often. I know how to work the stealers.
A good example: How much was your C63?
Wrong. Because remember, again my OP "if you know you will keep your car for 2/3 years" - this is a moot point. In either scenario, the buyer KNOWS they will keep their car for 2/3 years. If they dont, they will either a) try to do a swapalease which is a pain or b) take the pain of losing a ton of money selling it early. So we will just take it out of the equation. Again, this ALL stems from my original statement of "if you know you'll keep your car 2/3 yrs"...
Fine, but in the end the finance has been proven to cost less money in payments and give back a better return. Even with you working the numbers more in your favor. So I guess your point of it being a better deal for the number was wrong.
First off new cars arent for me, you are correct. I just got a ridiculous deal on mine and thats why I bought it new. I have 15k a year, more than enough. You will be lucky to break even. Look at the guys who could barely get $20k for their loaded C55's back in late 09 3 yrs after buying and were posting up trying to get $33k, you think it's going to be better with the C63? I dont...not worth the risk to me.
How much you pay for your C63? New or a slightly used dealer car that never got registered? Whats your payment and term? You dont know the details of my purchase so I dont think you are in a position to say "You will be lucky to break even"
....
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2009 C63
leasing is a terrible option unless youre getting tax benefits...leasing with MBUSA is even worse.
I was quoted what worked out to be 10.5% on a lease last april - instead I bought it and borrowed about half the cost at 3.7%
I was quoted what worked out to be 10.5% on a lease last april - instead I bought it and borrowed about half the cost at 3.7%
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Yes
You keep changing the rules and calling apples and oranges. You said sell the 2006 and were comparing it to 36 month lease but failed to realize that a 2006 was a 48 month turnin.
You give me numbers to use and I use them. I give you a sell price of a 2007 car and because it has 30K miles you now say its apples and oranges.
KBB is not irrelevant. Its a baseline. Ebay is NOT a dealer trade in. Galves is the best book value that dealers use so they can get the right AUCTION price. Not the market value. A 2007 E class with 36K miles sell for 30-35K. LOL. If you think a E63 with the same milage isnt getting 10K more your crazy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...ht_9075wt_1166
Original sticker of $93k - now at $30k. Let's see what happens. 21000 miles.
Right, 10K mileage lease means less payment. 30K mileage car means more money. They cancel each other out. But it seems you wanna take from peter but not give to paul.
Freedom? To what? Crash into crap? Come on dude.
Not so my friend. Trust me, you would be amazed how much room they have on new cars. They will take from one and give to another. They give more on the trade and charge more on the car or simply just take the hit because sales numbers mean almost as much as $$ to them. Trust me, I should write a book I buy cars so often. I know how to work the stealers.
A good example: How much was your C63?
Fine, but in the end the finance has been proven to cost less money in payments and give back a better return. Even with you working the numbers more in your favor. So I guess your point of it being a better deal for the number was wrong.
How much you pay for your C63? New or a slightly used dealer car that never got registered? Whats your payment and term? You dont know the details of my purchase so I dont think you are in a position to say "You will be lucky to break even"
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You said...
The lease does not burn the least amount of money.
No no no... You said a 2006 E55 will sell for 35K now compare that 2006 to a 3 year lease in total cost. Bad numbers. Only fair to pick a 2007 and I found one but you didnt like that one.. lol... So I give you KBB as a reference... not good enough.. You will argue this until you think you convinced yourself you made the right move. A lease is a bad investment unless as stated above you get a tax benifit. Is this the part where you tell me your getting one?
There is a bid on Ebay now for a 2007 with 30K miles for 40200. If it doesnt get beyond that price you might be right. MIGHT be right. The reserve would still need to be lifed and the car sold for that price. We shall see. Im already +200. You just arent playing fair so you can convince you made the right decision.
That Ebay bid you listed means nothing unless the reserve is lifted and it sells. Might as well be 50 cents right now.
100% honest. You can call my dealer. Ive hooked up many on this forum with great car deals using him because I buy so much from him. Trust me... SO MUCH ROOM you not even aware of on a new car. My price. 52,300 before tax. I also traded in a car thats not on my list for 35K. So I only paid tax on $17,000. 53,800 out the door. My car has 6K miles on it right now. I can get 53K for her today.
Well said, so my goal, knowing this is burning money, is to burn the least amount of money.
Wrong. The reason I used 36 months from a 2006 is because we KNOW what the car cost new, and we KNOW 36 months later what the car sold for. You using a 2007 E63 bought 30 months ago only allows for speculation as to how much it will be worth when the true 36 month period is over. Apples. Oranges. You keep changing, not me.
Yes, 10k does mean less payment, so I subtracted it. And 30k mileage car means more money...$40k.
That Ebay bid you listed means nothing unless the reserve is lifted and it sells. Might as well be 50 cents right now.
I tipped my hand with telling you how much my car was, now you first with the details...
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Yes
We are looking at a LOT of assumptions. The poor C55 owner who cant get $20k for his 40 month old car would love to turn back time and lease it Im sure. All assumptions...ASSUMING one can get x amount for their car. Look at the classifieds here...none of these cars are moving. People dont want to buy a used limited warranty AMG, its a fact. And if they do, they want WELL under KBB to do it. We are ASSUMING that car sells for $40k. We are ASSUMING the person on the other end actually buys it and doesnt flake.
OK I found one too and posted it up - it just ended at $30k with a $93k sticker. So whats your point? You found a high one, I found a low one. We can go at this all day. In reality you know these cars depreciate like rocks and if you really think you won't be upside down at the end of a finance deal that you didnt throw a whole bunch of money at...well dude you're going to be disappointed.
Nope, KBB is not a reference, KBB is a joke. You and I both know it, dont play it off like it isnt. KBB does not apply to these cars. Again, go show a KBB price to a guy trying to push a C55 who cant PAY a dealer to take it off his hands, and cant sell the car for $20k. See what he thinks of KBB's evaluation...see what the dealer thinks too while you're at it.
I can see youre taking this personally, when you really havent proven a thing other than you can make assumptions that anyone with a few minutes and google can make in the opposite direction - as I have. "+200?" Settle down cowboy, its the internet. You have your opinion which you think you have proven, I have mine which I think I have proven clearly. It's up to the person sitting in the dealers chair to think which way to go...this is healthy banter in my opinion, much more thought provoking than some of the other stuff on here lately.
I think you'd be lucky to get $53k, really. And think about that - a $67k car depreciating $14k with 6000 miles? Its a joke.
Not to make this a "who got a better deal thread" but mine came fully loaded minus CF by the way, for $54k with a sticker of $71k. I think we can both say we worked our dealers pretty good huh?
And guess what? In 3 years MAYBE I can sell it for $30k if Im lucky. Thats if its in perfect shape and the miles are low.
So you know what? When Im sitting in the chair at the dealer crunching the numbers...and I see its $30 more a month to lease it...and I bring up the rate of depreciation on C55's...and I flash that into the price of the C63 and realize I would be lucky to break even when I go to sell it in 3 years...I say no thanks. In 3 years I'll happily hand the keys right back to the dealer and slide right into a C82 or whatever the heck is out at the time and not think twice about anything else along the way except enjoying the heck out of the car while I've got it.
No no no... You said a 2006 E55 will sell for 35K now compare that 2006 to a 3 year lease in total cost. Bad numbers. Only fair to pick a 2007 and I found one but you didnt like that one.. lol...
So I give you KBB as a reference... not good enough.. You will argue this until you think you convinced yourself you made the right move. A lease is a bad investment unless as stated above you get a tax benifit. Is this the part where you tell me your getting one?
There is a bid on Ebay now for a 2007 with 30K miles for 40200. If it doesnt get beyond that price you might be right. MIGHT be right. The reserve would still need to be lifed and the car sold for that price. We shall see. Im already +200. You just arent playing fair so you can convince you made the right decision.
100% honest. You can call my dealer. Ive hooked up many on this forum with great car deals using him because I buy so much from him. Trust me... SO MUCH ROOM you not even aware of on a new car. My price. 52,300 before tax. I also traded in a car thats not on my list for 35K. So I only paid tax on $17,000. 53,800 out the door. My car has 6K miles on it right now. I can get 53K for her today.
Not to make this a "who got a better deal thread" but mine came fully loaded minus CF by the way, for $54k with a sticker of $71k. I think we can both say we worked our dealers pretty good huh?
And guess what? In 3 years MAYBE I can sell it for $30k if Im lucky. Thats if its in perfect shape and the miles are low.
So you know what? When Im sitting in the chair at the dealer crunching the numbers...and I see its $30 more a month to lease it...and I bring up the rate of depreciation on C55's...and I flash that into the price of the C63 and realize I would be lucky to break even when I go to sell it in 3 years...I say no thanks. In 3 years I'll happily hand the keys right back to the dealer and slide right into a C82 or whatever the heck is out at the time and not think twice about anything else along the way except enjoying the heck out of the car while I've got it.
Last edited by rory breaker; Feb 22, 2010 at 10:08 PM.
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Never mind what you got the car for. How much is your payment? You gotta be paying at least 1K a month on that lease. 15K miles a year??? 45K miles on a 3 year old C63. Going by your numbers that baby wont be worth more than 15K. I bet your payment is more like 1200. WOW 15K miles per year?? You are paying out the *** for that lease im sure.
In 36 months I wont owe a dime on my C63 so I guess ill be getting some money back anyhow right?
In 36 months after paying (Insert your payment here) a month how much will you be getting? What kind of tax break on your next purchase? 0.0
So lets figure out that now shall we and we can put this to rest.
How much is your payment? Mine is $1280 a month with 10K down. 4.5% interest for 36 months. My car will be paid in 30 months. I guarantee and will jump off a bridge if in 30 months my car is worth less than 25K. But lets say your right and its worth 20K. I still walk away with 10K AND my 10K down payment. I tuck 10K in the bank and I put 10K down on my next car. Guess what? I paid MAYBE $4400 more than you in total payments but I walk away with my down payment and tuck $5600 in the bank AND get at least a 2-3 thousand tax break on my next purchase.
Tell me again how a lease is better??
In 36 months I wont owe a dime on my C63 so I guess ill be getting some money back anyhow right?
In 36 months after paying (Insert your payment here) a month how much will you be getting? What kind of tax break on your next purchase? 0.0
So lets figure out that now shall we and we can put this to rest.
How much is your payment? Mine is $1280 a month with 10K down. 4.5% interest for 36 months. My car will be paid in 30 months. I guarantee and will jump off a bridge if in 30 months my car is worth less than 25K. But lets say your right and its worth 20K. I still walk away with 10K AND my 10K down payment. I tuck 10K in the bank and I put 10K down on my next car. Guess what? I paid MAYBE $4400 more than you in total payments but I walk away with my down payment and tuck $5600 in the bank AND get at least a 2-3 thousand tax break on my next purchase.
Tell me again how a lease is better??
