SMP

In order to avoid situations like that, it's best to have the part you purchased form a vendor installed by the same vendor. Especially custom made exhaust parts, at least that's what I do and never had any problems. I prefer quality over quantity and rather spend a little more money to get exactly what I want to avoid hassles like that. I don't buy cheap cars, so I expect that after market parts will cost more money and most likely will have to be custom made. The same goes with repairs and maintenance, but I'm aware of this before I buy a car and don't cry later when reality hits.

BerBer63

Hindsight is always nice, but I got quotes from two reputable shops, DC Performance and ACG to do the install in 6-8 hours and both well under 1,000, which seemed a lot nicer than 1,250 and two days.

JM

But that does not matter anymore, you dropped the sales...

If you still took the headers you would not be down a part of the money because he was willing to install it to cover THAT PART of your loss.


so in the end it was his loss not yours.

Sincity

Book time to R&I (Remove and Install) the two exhaust manifolds (2.5 per manifold) and the two downpipes including secondary cats is 5.2 hours. That is using OEM parts that are expected to fit. I think up to 6.5-7.0 max to fit aftermarket headers since you may have to "fit" the parts. I agree that the $1250 is on the high side. ACG was able to do it the same day you dropped the vehicle off? I would think you would have to drop it off overnight to cool down and then do the install and that is why you were quoted 2 days.

gravedgr

BerBer63

I drove 2.5 hours, so the car was definitely hot. Let it cool for about 1hr, while taking off the undercarriage panels. Took off the stock exhaust including manifolds in probably 2.5hours. Put on the aftermarket headers in ~1.5hours. The main hold up with these installs is that the header bolts are a PITA to get too. Decided to take headers off and put stock system back on in another ~2.5hours. I was there from 10-6pm, then drove back. That's why I'm all for a down pipe solution, the whole thing should take less than 2-2.5 hours.

bhamg

I'm a firm believer that in situations like this one generally gets the best of the other party when they want to make it right. By that I mean the quality of the product and the service are going to be as good as it can get given what there is to work with from the item, the shop and the personnel. It's too bad things are where they are in this case...

bluejae

i think i read everything, but has there been a response on why it would have taken 2 days for the install? and i'm assuming the cost of the install might be because of the length of time... how many hours of labor is expected if installed at gtpro? or is it 2 days because they are just that busy?

BerBer63

This is what Brian told me initially, "Hi Chris, here are the pictures. The installation cost is a bit complex and time consuming, but I will cut you a deal since you are buying the headers from us as a "package deal" $1250.00 + the cost of the headers of $2825.00 to equal a total $4075.00 cash deal. We usually charge $1600.00 + $3595.00 = $5195.00 + tx."


Another email I sent about installation because when I picked up the headers from his co-worker Erwin who told me it was basically the biggest PITA to install and they had to loosen motor mounts to drop them in, so I sent this email to Brian:

"Hey Brian,
Picked up the headers as you know I'm sure. Erwin was saying that the engine needs to be lifted and motor mounts loosened to get the headers and bolts out and in? Is this true because I haven't heard that done for any other LT header out on the market and that seems pretty extensive and probably would have liked to know that before hand since that's a major operation that's not common with the other 3 or 4 brands out. If it's true it makes sense why the installation costs you were quoting were relatively high because I got estimate from other shops doing 63 LT headers anywhere from 600 - 1000. Let me know what I should be prepared for."

Brian's response:
"It is not nessesary but makes things easier. Our headers are not more difficult than the others, but our labor is at a higher rate than most plus we don't rush the job we take our time and as you know time is money.. Btw we did not do this to install my headers if that makes you feel better."

That's part of why I was choosing ACG or DC because of the cost, time, and what I heard from Erwin about installing the set on Brian's car.

Sathinas

I'm not going to take sides, and don't want to go off topic too much, but why, and how, can these tuning houses and parts houses justify charging so much for MB aftermarket performance?

I can understand the headers, but even those, once you have a jig all made up, it shouldn't cost 2800 bucks for a set of headers.

Let's not talk about RennTech, kleemann, etc.

bluejae

1. you sure it's ok to post the price you almost got the headers for?

2. so their labor rate is higher than others, and they take their time to make sure everything is done right... although i agree that it does take time to do a great job and a professional job, i don't think "take our time" is something a customer would want to hear after being told the labor is expensive...

3. and judging by the last thing that was said, does that mean you could have taken the option to not go the route of loosening the motor mounts, and just install it like it was done on his car? and wouldn't that have dropped the installation cost?... if he told me that, it would have made me feel better because i would opt out of the longer more expensive process and ask how much it would cost to install it the other way

Sincity

Kleemann's setup are not headers, but higher flowing versions of our exhaust manifolds with high-flow primary cats. It doesn't produce as much power as LTs. Cost is $2495.

Chubbs: If you are looking for a DP solution, the only company that I know of that has hinted such a product is GT Pro. Otherwise just go K2.

callmiro

Even if he did let them install it.....how would you get it to fit when 2 of the primaries are lower than the opposite collector....let alone the collector firing down like it came off the space shuttle

If anything he saved Brian from wasting 2 days of labour

bhamg

Brian offered a pair of "replacement headers."

Sincity

Let it go since we are beyond that point. Brian understands that there is a manufacturing defect from his fabricator.

Sincity

You know, the only company that I hear of proposing a DP solution is Brian. Superlubricity may have something in the works with Brian since he feels that the bottleneck is the primary cat and he needs something to mate with his PLM exhaust manifolds and GT Pro's X-pipe. Brian might have a winner even if the gains are nominal since with a DP and his X-Pipe setup, you can put everythign back to stock with relative ease.

Brian: How is that DP project coming along?

BerBer63

Yea you mentioned it in post#37. I think this will free up a lot of HP and keep the install costs and time down. Still will need the K2 tune and possible O2 extension?

Sincity

You are right. I thought I posted it somewhere. Blame it on the Ambien. My doc says I may experience temporary memory loss.

No idea if K2 is needed and if we need the O2 wires extended or not. We'll let our resident experimenter, Superlubricity, figure it out.

C63 Guy

Actually, evosport has had a sick downpipe for over a year. We designed and built it on my car when I worked there. There's a youtube video of me testing it out, too:

http://www.youtube.com/joshuaogle#p/u/6/bE0LQI6ZiMU

Just saying...

But to return from my gratuitous threadjack, I understand Brian's unwillingness to repay you for James' labor if he offered to perform the service and replace the part for free AND rent you a car. That's a perfectly good solution, and at that point you've basically gotten him to do the work at James' rate anyway.

However Brian, for the life of me I can't understand why you accepted those crapass headers from Al's in the first place! The welds and that tear in the primary coming off the flange would have made me turn and run for the hills. Nothing personal, because I know you weren't responsible for the work, but that pair looks like a poorly fabbed copy of the MHPs. Which themselves aren't especially pretty, but do make some solid power, so why not, I guess...

I dunno.

Josh

BlackC230Coupe

Well who shipped them? I would guess Brian, didn't Brian ship see those ****ty welds and then still continue to put them in a box and ship them anyway? or were they shipped from a 3rd party? if not there is clearly not OC control. Because on a company that does not sell that many headers for a C63, you would think that the few they sell would be checked very well. I have nothing bad to say about Brian. However, if I was a customer, I would like to know why you would spend so much money on a member/company that is new to the Merceces-Benz tuning market? Only part of this forum for what? 1 year with not that many posts.... I don't care if he had 10,000hp flowing thew his 3rd party made headers and was on the cover of Time Magazine, why buy from company that is still learning and how to build Mercedes-Benz performance parts? they have a clear no history in Mercedes-Benz engine tuning. And these are cars that should have properly made well tested parts made in house and not from the metal welder down the street. if you are spending a lot of money why not go for a real known tested name brand? not one who started on this car a year ago? I understand Brian is trying to make things right, and there really is not much more to do since the customer got a defective part on his end, but its clear they have a lot more quality to gain and prove to us. Which will take years, not months. My guess is he bought a C63 for himself, and figured why not make headers for that car anyway to compete with other large tuners and charge thousands for them anyway? This shows there is a lot more to it. You would NEVER see this on a Renntech or Kleemann part which are all made in house. I feel bad for the customer, no matter how well things work out for him in the end, or no matter how much money he may gain from it, no one wants their car taken apart more then once for no reason!

JM

Did you like MY downpipe?

It was custom including my exhaust.

Sincity

Yeah....the b*tch sure is loud.

BerBer63

Thanks Neil, I agree completely. I too am curious to know what Renntech, Kleemann, or even Evosport would do in this situation with a customer who installed their parts at another shop outside of their own. Btw, these long-tubes were in Brian's possession for weeks if not months. He sent pictures to me and showed them in person. I do believe there should be some quality control not only for the flange welds, but the angle of the collector, which is a lot easier to notice once placed on a block.

In addition to why I didn't have GTPro install his own personal designed headers at his shop. Besides the almost ridiculously high installation price (1600 dropped to 1,250 for me) and the almost suspiciously high install time for a company that designed the headers (2 days vs 6-8 hours by ACG or DC performance who never saw the pieces before quoting me), when I went to their shop in late April I met Brian and purchased the headers. He basically told me that GTPro was 'bought up' by another company TRD (sp?) and that they re-hired Brian and some of his coworkers (Erwin and a mechanic, I believe) to continue the european car division. I was a little skeptical that GTPro was bought out. When I also visited in late april, the shop was nothing but drywall and construction equipment, with the back auto shop relatively in tact. I didn't get a good gut feeling to have my car installed there when I saw that there were more construction workers than employees and cars combined. It looked like the shop was coming out nice, but there were a million other tasks going on and wasn't sure that my car would best in the shop this early. I was also considering what Erwin explained to me as loosening engine mounts and moving the motor on their last header installation. Plus, the K2 tune would take 3 days with shipping at GTPro vs. 10mins at ACG. So why not go to a cheaper, faster, more reputable shop in ACG or DC.

All of this contributed to why I initially didn't want GTPro for the installation and I refused to have them do it even for free after. I sort of feel lucky in a way and I believe now that I might of saved myself serious headache in a year's time from a cracked header weld and would be left in a very bad situation.

Sincity

Cat-less? I don't see it in their catalog. I prefer something with a high-flow cat for sound attenuation.

MB_Forever

+ 1000000 Very well said Neal

Quality control over products for these high-end cars is a MUST if a company plans on having a strong stand in today's market. I understand Brian went far and beyond to make things right, which is another very strong and much needed characteristic nowadays, but honestly this situation could've been avoided with a simple validation procedure: someone would go over each header (or part) after it has been created checking thoroughly for flaws/defects before final delivery. Each product carries the company's image and reputation, so it must be well-protected. I for one, as a Mercedes-Benz enthusiast (and as a consumer), am very picky when it comes to products for my car. I cannot accept a product with any flaws especially if it is for something that I love so much as my car. Consequently, I always try to seek companies with the highest reputation and excellent quality parts despite their slightly higher prices.

Again, I am not bashing Brian in any way, as he's been a very stand-up guy and has helped many members with their projects over the past year. I was just stating my personal opinion on how this could've been avoided.