Jasonoff

Be careful reversing polarity. They use reduction gears so those motors can spin at high rpm. If you apply full voltage and the plate is sitting on the stopper prepare for grenade city...

Celicasaur

Grrrr, ok so in short - it didn't work.

Flipping over the polarity doesn't make any difference at all once connected back to the engine, which kinda surprised me. Would have made me feel better if it just straight up didn't work, rather than not made any difference at all.

The ECU has no idea that the throttle bodies are opening the wrong way around. I checked on my ODB thing and with the throttle bodies fully open, it's showing the closed percentage (17% in this instance, rather than the usual 13% which the stock throttle bodies show me), but as I press the accelerator, the % figure gradually climbs to the usual 87% figure, but the throttle plates close.

HHMMMMmmmm....

It can't be physically reversed on the main drive gear for the throttle plate, because as BLKROKT said, there are solid stoppers built into the design and besides, there's an electrical scraper thingy that kisses an electric track on the inside of the black plastic housing and that's presumably what sends the throttle position data back to the ECU.

I thought about removing the throttle plate and re-tapping a thread in such a way that would have the plate wide open in the resting position, so that once the ECU triggers it, it'll close and then when I press the pedal, it'll open as normal, but in the opposide direction to how the throttle body was designed. But the issue with this (besides it being one helluva bodge) is that I'd never know exactly how much throttle to leave open for idle (if you look closely at even the stock throttle bodies, when shut, they are never truly shut).


Well. I tried

skratch77

I used to swap pins on my e55 to reverse polarity to get bigger TB to work

from memory it was pins 5 and 6 but need to dig it up.

here it is swap pins 2 and 3 and 5 and 6

your welcome!

Celicasaur

Ahhhhh that's interesting....should I assume that the pins are to be read as:
123
456

That's a good idea yknow....damnit, stupid time difference from London to USA - it was late last night and I was hammered, so I went to bed after making the post, but then had a thought to order the same big throttle body that I had on my old E55K (which was off of and S Class i think). Well...that has been ordered now anyway (I really am wondering if that's the throttle body that Kleemann use and also the guy in Russia - 82mm vs 80mm). If it is, that would make for a simpler installation, I guess for you guys at least. I've been through loads of hassle on and off over the last year with this.

I'll have a go with switching the pins later this evening and let you know what happens

skratch77

there 8s small numbers on the pins plastic harness.the only problem on the AMG TB was the harness was glued to the TB.

if u want a TB that u don't need to switch pins you need to get an OEM mb s550 natural asperated TB but they are expensive.

Celicasaur

So I had a play around with the throttle loom this weekend. I made a note of the colours and corresponding pins (the shorter fork of the loom is the first list below):

1 grey
2 brown
3 brown 2
4 black
5 yellow
6 yellow 2

1 grey n black
2 brown
3 brown 2
4 black n brown
5 yellow n black
6 yellow n black 2


An educated guess told me to swap the common pairs of colours with each other, ie the browns and the yellows (2 with 3 and 5 with 6). i tried this on the car with the bigger throttle bodies...no joy. I tried a few other combos's (flipping the yellows to the browns and then even flipping their positions) but nothing seemed to work. Hmmm.... I really don't understand how Conv_GSDriver had these throttle bodies in his car. I'm running out of ideas now guys. Almost ready to throw the towel in as my car has been sat on the driveway for 2 weeks and the Mrs is nagging me to get to using it again. Urgh it's so annoying...I'll bet the loom is the key. Just need the right combo. Renntech offer a new loom with their kit...

Last chance saloon is to plug in the OEM MB big throttle body which should arrive with me at some point this week, but I would prefer to make these brand new ones work...somehow.

Celicasaur

Ok so the Porsche throttle bodies which Renntech offer was a failure for me - if anybody wants to buy them from me and have a go, be my guest, I won't ask for much at all and they're effectively new.

However, now Kleemann use OEM MB throttle bodies from the 550 series cars (E550 W211 etc) and those do work with the oem loom. I had my manifold off and plugged the throttle bodies into the loom, had the car on the 2nd turn of the key and the butterflies opened as you'd expect when the accelerator is pressed, which is great.

Unfortunately, when fitted to the car, the car doesn't seem to like them. I've had them on/off several times now (and I think tomorrow I'll have them off for good). In my mind, the issue points to an internal vacuum leak, but I can't work out how because I've removed the assembly, poured water in, waited and waited....but no leakage. I even poured some diesel in there (this all off the car of course) but no leakage.

Vacuum readings are way too low (at idle), load is way too high and in turn this means ignition timing is horrendously off as the ECU tries to compensate for the slightly higher idle (1000rpm) Some actual data logs would be useful, but these phone app pics will have to suffice for the moment.

Left side is idling with stock throttle bodies, right side are the bigger ones:





How does it drive? It's not really driving well if I'm honest - timing is all over the place, although under normal driving load (ie, 2000rpm onwards etc) the timing numbers are positive, but probably just not where they need to be in order to make a fair comparison. When fully warm (slightly warmer than usual because oil temp got to 105 which is unusually high but that's probably the over-retarded timing heating things up) the idle managed to drop to the usual 600rpm, but then it would also occasionally sit at 1000rpm and then in some cases it would surge at idle. The surging is unusual behaviour that makes me think it's a vacuum leak.

I'm trying to decide if it just needs a custom tune, or if anything is fundamentally wrong with how I've put it together. It's probably the latter but I thought I'd share my findings with the community in case somebody wants to take this on forwards and make this happen. At this point, the eBay guy in Russia is probably the best bet tbh as his solution is meant to be as plug n play as Kleemanns (it is a copy after all). I think I've had it on and off the car 4 or 5 times now and I'm just tired of trying now. Time to let somebody else take this forward if they can be bothered to. A small part of me wonders if the timing is based upon load vs throttle opening vs maf voltage and if the tune is just confused because more air is being drawn in vs throttle opening %, but on the basis that Renntech and Kleemann have a plug n play system....meh...

For those of you that are itching to know the part number of the throttle body:
A 273 141 03 25

deadlyvt

It does look like a vacuum leak if those gauges are correct... and you say you've had the stock ones out and back in a few times and it returns to normal when you do eliminating any leaks from somewhere other than the throttles ?
could be the motors on the throttles have different voltages to throttle angle outputs?
did you try contacting a tuner maybe eurocharged could help you look into it...

Celicasaur

Yes that's correct. It could be a huge coincidence that when I place the stock TBs back and torque it back up, i inadvertently 'correctly' bolt the manifold up again which I might not have done with the manifolds...who knows.

The big TBs do the initialisation flap (open/close) immediately when the ignition is turned to key position 2, so that's a good sign. Also, when in the closed position, they show the same percentage of opening angle as shown on the screenshot above, so I have no reason to believe it's the angle vs voltage causing the issue.

I might...have another go tomorrow. But first, i might smoke up a vacuum line to see if there's an external leak on the manifold itself that I'm missing.

I've had a few conversations with the ever-helpful Dave Mean E's and tbh we've both concluded a vacuum leak causing the issue...no point in trying to get a tune adapted for a fundamental hardware issue I guess. If I can make any progress on it this week, I'll be sure to report back with my findings.

Celicasaur

FINALLY!!!


Friggin hell, I've been working on this on and off for over a year now!

My car now has a working pair of 82mm throttle bodies!!

Bearing in mind, the car might need to adapt to the change in airflow etc as I reset the battery terminal to clear adaptations, but early indications are positive.

Response is much improved. Comfort feels more perkier (although I quite like comfort mode being sloppy) but Sport mode is noticeable sharper and the car seems very eager to accelerate and downshift like a hyper-active puppydog.

I want to say I feel the car pulling harder, but who knows if that's placebo. The car in general feels quite strong these days anyway tbh (in heavy E class kinda way, ie not as strong as a strong C class).

Shifting feels firmer (strangely) and more precise. Everything seems to happen quicker as you'd expect because % airflow vs % opening is going to be more on the bigger throttle bodies. They open up to an indicated 91% (not that it probably makes any difference ). Manual mode is certainly more interesting when coming out of bends

It's definitely a lot nicer to drive in my opinion. However I don't want to give the impression that it feels anything like a car with razor sharp throttle, like an M5 (anybody who's driven an E39 M5 with an Evolve tune will know what I mean), but then those cars have ITB's, so it's not an equal comparison either.

The big question - should you guys do it?
That depends. Should you spend $4000 that RENNtech and Kleemann want? Hell no. Should you spend ~$1400 (exchange rate pending) from that guy in Russia on eBay? Yes - if you are more about the driving experience than the gains on the dyno. TBH if these did actually gain me the ~15hp and ~10lbs that RENNtech and Kleemann claim, then I wouldn't be surprised. I just can't categorically state gains right now because my car is already moving reasonably well and I don't drive it daily anymore, so my butt-dyno isn't 100% calibrated to this car.

I've got a couple more things to iron out with my car before I head off to the dyno...probably in august at some point or september. a 480whp pull on my car should handsomely be 500+ on a C class.

Go fourth now guys and up your throttle game....let's take it up a notch

Infiniti

i think i smiled the entire time reading this, congrats bro

i just bored my tb shafts and my buddy with a fellow e63 said my throttle is way too sensitive and crisp. after boring the tbs there is a huge diff in throttle response and power in tall gears. again congrats man!

Celicasaur

Thank you very much indeed! It's been a long struggle and many many hours behind the scenes, even sacrificing my old intake manifold in the process but got there in the end.

TBH i really do think the oem throttle bodies with totally ground down shafts (except the screws of course) will be about the same as these. However from quite a long time ago I've been on the NA trail, hence why I wanted to eliminate all doubt by running the bigger ones period.

Shardul used to do the shaft mod on the E55's back in the day and I'm pretty sure he worked out the surface area to be like 1-2mm smaller than the 82mm variant at the time and the gains were near enough the same (which I also did back then...ahhh, good times)

BLKROKT

Ok, this is AWESOME. GREAT WORK DUDE!

So please tell me the recipe here. Is it as simple as getting the Russian eBay plate and bolting in 550 throttle bodies? Everything plug-and-play drop right in?

Please post up the steps if you don't mind (and source for the parts), I'll gladly be the next guinea pig on this one.

Love this kind of stuff, really well done.

Celicasaur

Thanks man, yeah i feel quite pleased right now. Just went out for a drive and woke the dead (I really need to fit some sports cats to quieten this thing down at some point).

The recipe I used is not something I'd recommend. For all intents and purposes, I only wanted to see if this would work ages ago and with the 997 Porsche TBs which then ended up being the 550 series Mercedes ones (A 273 141 03 25). I fitted them via hacking up an oem throttle housing and using all kinds of horrid methods which involve epoxy, bolts, washers, nuts and more epoxy. Let's just say that I'm planning to have a more accomplished install over the coming months or winter.

But yeah, you could buy the throttle plate from the guy in russia and then a pair of TBs, but tbh he actually gives you a pair of TBs and the plate for a great price as it is.

However.....I think the way forward for those of us on a budget, would be to buy the oem style reinforced, steel throttle housings and then have an 82mm adaptor welded on. That was my original plan, until I discovered that the material of the stock throttle housing can't be welded. I was going to post a link to it just now, but I can't remember where I saw it online...but they're definitely available. But then again, for the sake of less hassle...the guy from russia would be a lot simpler (in hindsight, i wish i bought his kit, but I'd already started before he started selling them and then i became insistent on my own method working)

Which ever way you manage to get these onto the car, it's more or less a bolt on affair.

GRP

Perseverance finally pays off - well done.

BLKROKT

I remember reading all of your trial and tribulations man, that's why I'm so psyched for you here. What was the "eureka" moment, or was it as simple as fixing the intake manifold leak that got them to finally work?

I'm looking at his eBay listing right now, and it says plate only for $800 + $100 shipping. I'll try contacting him to see if he'll do a good deal with the TBs included. Any idea which ones he uses? (EDIT: Contacted the guy and he put the kit together for me with TBs)

Pulled the trigger and went for it. Should have it here in a couple weeks and will report back on quality, fit, etc. Good looking out!

bhamg

Amazing to reread this thread and Celicasaur's journey. Major props to you, sir.

Savage-wp

Congrats Celicasaur. Been following your trails for some time now. It can get very frustrating at times, but your persevere has paid off. Well done.

Savage-wp

Awesome. Let us know how it goes, and if it's a straight bolt on.
If you don't mind me asking, what did the Russian guy charge for the package.

Phil_T

Sounds good will look forward to see how you get on with the kit, btw what is his ebay username?

BLKROKT

Well, here's the deal guys. They're from some random Russian guy who nobody knows, and off of scam-ridden eBay, so there's still a lot that can go really wrong here. Mine should be on the way shortly, and I know that one other member just fitted his and is testing/tuning as we speak. Out of an abundance of caution, let us get our cars running right and ensure that this is the real deal. I'd hate to vouch for or refer you guys to something that I haven't tested myself to make 100% sure it is as described.

Once we're sure it's all good, we'll try to setup a Group Buy with this guy, and get everyone who wants in for less.

Fair? If you're dying for the info, it's not hard to find on eBay.

Phil_T

Sounds good to me

skratch77

Glad you are up and running my friend!

Just a few questions for you.

1 what is your tps when engine is fully warmed up in park and in drive with foot on the brake?

2 what rpm are you seeing in park and drive with car warmed up.

Before everyone goes to try this it was a nightmare running bigger tb on e55 and when I sold mine I put the stock one back on.

The mct boys might have a problem with these because our cars rev match and will most definitely throw codes if it's as sensitive as the old e55.

The computer will expect x% throtlte for xrpm and that might be a huge pain in the ***.

Savage-wp

Sounds good to me. Hope it works out for you.

Infiniti

i never thought i'd say this but thank you blkrokt 😅🙌🏻 i'm curious to see the differences between these tbs and what i did. my bro is going to unicorn tune his 507 and squeeze all jerry can out of it. i have a couple extra sets of tbs i will zap for him so after there is no more to be made on his car he will install the tbs and and phenolic/thermal intake spacers. my tbs made roughly 6hp/4tp at tires.

again, MUCH MUCH PROPS TO CELICA not to go off topic
but post pics of the e39 and the celiaca! lol