drawde

lol find me a gtr for ~26k (tune+headers+blower)

but yeah i see what you're saying. i'm just happy that it looks like we have the option now. whether or not I actually go ahead and get this (or headers for that matter), is secondary.

Dads C63

If you follow what they are posting the testing was done on a stock engine and car. No headers etc.... This system will most likely offer similar gains as the MHP long tube headers and tune with maybe a Renntech air box and filters. You will not be able to stack this on an already modded car like Dodger63 and others. I say this for many reasons and maybe they can prove me wrong. First and foremost there is not enough fuel on the table for a forced inducted engine coupled with the L/T headers etc.... Secondly, the tranny won't take it. I know they say they have after market parts for the tranny but the last two trannys we destroyed had Level 10 clutch packs in them.

I am going to estimate this package is for those that don't want the headers and tune. If it works it will be a nice set up for a quieter DD with less power. I am not taking anything away from this new offering. I just don't want people like Dodger63 to get all excited when the prospect of adding a blower to our cars is not feasible. If you want to remove the headers and tune and put their S/C on with their tune then that would be an option. Our cars already have 11.5 compression so low boost is what you can get safely. I would estimate a maximum of 450-475rwhp with this set up IF that much. Again, nice set up, just not an option for some of us.

no loser

+++++++++1111

callmiro

Totally agree about the fuel issue. Both the ESS kit and Edelbrock kits include upgraded injectors and upgrades for fuel pumps.

A tune would have to be mandatory but i dont see why there would be a need for long tubes. It would obviously help breathing but i'm pretty sure you could run some strong numbers without headers at 6-7 lbs of boost

The ESS M3's are running stock exhuast manifolds @6-7 lbs of boost and running an estimated 470 WHP from a base 330 WHP (that's a 140 WHP increase)

I'm pretty sure a blower set-up with upgraded fuel and tune would be pulling alot more power than just a car with a tune and long tubes.

The big issue i see is the 11.3:1 compression ratio of the 63 motor which is not too boost friendly

I wasn't suggesting that the kit would be $7200 but i was trying to show what an awesome over-engineered intercooled supercharger kit with upgraded tune and injectors, and with a 5 year warranty goes for minus the BENZ Tax

dodger63

Thanks Keith. I feel like you just told me there's no santa.. Jk, I told you long ago I don't get excited about things until it's there in front of me.. I'm much more excited about driving to Texas to play with m3s but i no not even that is going too happen. I'm sure you are right about this system total low boost with maybe 100hp increase.. But im just very happy to see some movement in aftermarket mods. We've been sitting idle for a number of months, probably a year.. We need sparks like this don't you think? As the market grows there will be more parts available,..

Worth the wait

Nice that this seems like a potential option.

I agree with Dad, we are now going to see a ton of threads like those on other big V8 forums...
"should I get cams and headers or a blower?"
Weistec, there is very little available online about your company, so I would be interested in hearing more about this:
"The staff at Weistec has had vast experience in aftermarket/oem engineering and calibration."

SonnyakaPig

Regarding the EForce blower, its a good option but it has its slight problems. First, the canned tune leaves way too much on the table power-wise so many people pulley down. Problem is, when they do that (just one pulley size) boost climbs to 9-10 psi at redline. That's too high for stock bottom end on an LS3 which has 10:7 compression.

Pistons are showing to be the weak link on an LS3 and L99.

Also, the EForce system has a problem in the design of the fuel line/rails. What can happen is one of the cylinders doesn't get enough fuel. There is a fix for that now, but not everyone knows about this.

Also, the tune had glitches from the start. And this is Edelbrock who waited soooo long to come out with their blower because of R&D, and they still have issues.

I agree with others that this blower, by itself, with canned tune would be run at very low boost, probably under 6psi, so about 150 rwhp gain max with 93 octane.

I don't know why you couldn't run headers with this kit. Headers could potentially drop boost by 1/2 a point and I'm sure you could get a custom tune, but like I said above, it would no longer be CARB legal.

Also, regarding the Edelbrock 5 year warranty, its crap if you really want to read it. Its nothing like an OEM powertrain warranty. You get an allotment of warranty money for three different parts of your car, engine, trans, rearend. Once you exhaust any of the money for any of the three respective parts, you no longer have a warranty for those parts. And if you break something and rebuild it to how it was right before it broke, what's to say you wouldn't break the same thing again.

The only way I see these aftermarket, 3rd party warranties for F/I being a good thing is if you plan on breaking something and replacing it with better parts than stock and you want to use the warranty money towards that end.

whipplem104

"I know they say they have after market parts for the tranny but the last two trannys we destroyed had Level 10 clutch packs in them."

Has anyone increased the transmission pressures to the 722.9? Adding more clutches is good but the pressure needs to be increased and firmer shifts. I know of no one doing this in the tune or physically by valves or springs.
How many of you are willing to sacrifice shift quality for fast firm shifts that can handle more power. The main difference in any transmissions power handling is the shift and modulator pressure. I have run 380nm 722.6 behind much more torque with pressure alone. The 722.9 and .6 share many of the same clutches and parts. Shaft diameter is the same, etc.. When you tune the engine and remove or reduce torque reduction on shifts the trans needs to shift very hard. Above the normal maximum.

Sincity

Renntech boxes wouldn't fit because of the intake runner being a non-OEM design.

Stock M3 exhaust manifolds are actually equal-length shorty headers and unlike our "log" exhaust manifolds.

Boost Gomez

+1
In reality, the factory M3 headers don't have to be improved upon unlike the restrictive C63 manifolds.

SonnyakaPig

Thanks for the correction. I've only seen a picture of the blower (haven't seen the video yet) and I thought they would fit. My mistake.

Regarding M3 shorties, they're still exhaust manifolds, though, no?

The 5th gen Camaro has log manifolds and they can handle big power from F/I. (Definitely 600 rwhp)

SonnyakaPig

Very good information. Thanks for sharing.

In my opinion, Weistec Engineering better have figured out the limits of at least one "test" trans so that their customers will feel confident running their blower.

Jakpro1

Just like we learned with the 55's. ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT!! Time for someone to snag one and experiment.

We would need a 63 baller to step up and spend the cash. It will happen. Someone will go for it.

This is a 55'r watching with excitement!

JL_C63

Hi friends, i show you an example, my brother has a M3 E92 with ESS tuning 625 pkg and 100 nitrous shot, he has LT, racing exhaust, 8.5 Lbs boost (the kit coming only with a 7.00 lbs, but he made a custom pulley), the ESS tuning bought to him a extreme tuning custom and new injectors, the car have 651 rwhp, you see the car in this web page: www.kingsperformance.com, he has stock compression 12.0:1, i think that our engine is very strong like this, for example i have 633 rwhp with nitrous, and i not have any problems, i am according with you with the transmission, in fact actually i have some fear with this point, but i think that this guys will find a solution (i hope).

P.D.: My english is not good.

hhughes1

Mercedes Benz has modified the newest version 7 speed allowing it to be paired with the TT5.5 rather than using the 5 speed that is used with the V12's

I have no idea if any of the improvements could be incorporated into an existing 7g Tronic other than new clutch packs.

SonnyakaPig

You do exist!

Just playin.

I thought we a had super modded C63 down in your parts. I remember reading one of your other posts a while back.

So, that's really good to know that your engine is holding up at that power level. Are you having any particular transmission issues?

JL_C63

not for now, my transmission is perfect with no issues.

LZH

How do you guys explain JRcarts Black Series on spray putting down ~650whp with ZERO transmissions problems ? I was under the impression that the factory maximums for hp/tq on the 722.9 were very conservative estimates, no ?

blackbenzz

This looks promising. Of course it won't be a cheap endeavor like many are thinking. But with enough money you can make anything work (lower compression, built up trans, etc etc). The question is how much do you want to spend? I look forward to seeing the results and am glad its not coming out of my pocket! lol

Dads C63

How many 1/4 mile passes have you made with the nitrous on drag radials?? That will give you some good ideas on how good your tranny will hold up. Good luck!

These motors are bullet proof and will take the power if properly tuned.

We both have additional fuel supplies for the nitrous the stock ecu doesn't have the capacity for. As far as JRCart's car goes it's not a C63, it's a black series that's built for the track and may have a different TCU. Otherwise, I have no answer.

FastDonzi

i would assume that the BS has heavy duty internals both in the trans and the rear diff.

RStevens63

I would add vs a S65 BMW M motor you're looking at 11.3:1 with port fuel injection which is nowhere as forgiving as 12.0:1 with piezo electric or even direct injection.

To make real power you're going to need a standalone/piggyback engine management system, completely revamped fuel system, a completely rebuilt shortblock (rods, pistons, rod bolts, rings), trans and converter solutions, and a larger supercharger. With those air inlets I doubt the blower could ingest 700HP worth of air (not that the rest of the package could take it anyway) even if it wanted too. Take a look at a KB 2.8L Mammoth inlet and you'll begin to realize how insufficient the stock inlet tubes are.

Weistec says there is no piggyback needed for the ECU for their base kit, which again lends credibility to the fact it's going to be limited to 4-5psi. Unless they include meth injection as a standard option.

Dad's hit the nail on the head. This kit was meant for those who want to make 475-500rw with an otherwise 100% stock car. I also agree with emeric in that cost will be higher than what most think as it would have to be on such a low volume product.

The comments about a Mercedes tax are rather funny. Eliminate 98% of your sales volume from a set of Mustang/Camaro headers and see how much they would cost. This is not the right car or the right kind of car for cheap parts. In the end who wants to risk a $80,000 motor?

Sincity

I thought I read somewhere he stated he went through six failures? I hope Jim can chime in.

C63 Guy

I think the difference, transmission-wise, is JRCart has line lockers, so he's not actually torquing his transmission against his brakes, just the friction of the tires. And after a roll through a waterbox, that ain't much. From my personal experience, brake stand burnouts are about the worst thing you can do to this transmission... But in reference to the BS trans, I think it's pretty much exactly the same as ours. They have plenty of other awesomeness to make up for the stock motor/trans combo.

One of the trans upgrades for the 5.5tt (and all 2010 63's including the C) is a modified K1 (IIRC) carrier that's laterally stiffer than the one in the '08-'09's. Two good things about this: 1) more even wear, and 2) more consistent clamping, hence higher torque capacity.

But getting back to the blower, it looks nice. Definitely gotta be low boost, like Dads and others are saying. Even with meth, I can't see them going over 6lbs and have it be as reliable as they say it's going to be. Also, with screws, you're boosting from low RPM so there's going to be more driveline shock than with a centrigfugal setup. Just something to think about... As far as the tune, Jeremy got the Gintani M3 kit running really clean on the stock ECU. No reason a competent tuner couldn't do that on the ME9.7.

I gotta roll down to Irvine and check this thing out...

Personally, until I figure out how to get a T56 trans in my car and have my instrument cluster and stability control still work, I'm going to stay NA.

Josh

SonnyakaPig

The post you quoted was quality perspective.

But, I will add that twin screws don't necessarily make peak boost right off of idle. The KB 2.8L that I had had a very linear power curve, and peak boost was about 7.5 psi without headers and 7 psi with headers. Boost off of idle was like 4 psi.

Also, KB twin screws don't make more torque than hp. They make more hp than torque.

Edelbrock E-Force blowers can make more torque than hp and same with Maggies. They are TVS blowers, though.

The heat soak with this setup and a stock hood will not be fun in the summer. Sure, twin screws make great power and they are fun to drive, but people should know that their oil temps and engine coolant temps will climb with this setup.

I'm sure it can be managed, but with this twin screw, their normal, stock operating temps will raise, unless it's cold outside.

This may also occur with the trans temps and that would be a fear as well, considering the car would make power faster than stock with a top mount twin screw.

The way I feel about this issue is that the manufacturer can quell most of our fears by providing solid facts to back up their assertion that this is a safe setup.

Like you said, our engines are expensive. I mean crazy expensive, so I would want to see a whole lot of confidence and test data for this product application before I would start saving up for it.

But, realistically, like you and the poster that you quoted pointed out, unless you want to spend buku bucks beefing up the driveline, including the shortblock, you would be limited to minimum boost numbers, and in that case, why not just install the tried-and-true, long tube/tune combo.

If anything, you save a lot of money, and you reach very similar power levels to the presumably low boost twin screw option.

Edit: Finally just listened to the video. It sounds great. wow.

Edit #2: Also wanted to point out that with this application, if the blower is actually on the slightly small side in terms of displacement, then torque may be higher than hp. I'm sure it would be a fun ride from stop light to stop light.