SPEEDRIVEN | Akrapovik Exhaust for C63
01-27-2011, 10:34 AM
#26
Banned
Thread Starter
The only reason an end user has to want full access to a file would be to modify it or send it to another tuner. In the case of the former, no tuner wants their customer to modify their files simply because the customer doesn't do that for a living. Similarly you would not ask say a police officer to perform heart surgery, right?
Ok well that leaves one option, the sharing of IP which is not ok. It's not ok in the music industry or in other forms of computer software. I also don't buy in to the "everyone has blood on their hands because the factory files are stolen" theory. All tuners can and should start with a base file and make their own changes, instead many copy which again isn't ok. I'm sure everyone on this forum works for a living, and by doing so expects to be paid for their work. Again the downside to this tool is that it makes it even easier for someone's hard work to be shared with those who shouldn't be in the business in the first place. The losers are the people that create the best software, that ends up in amateur hands with the amateurs profiting. The losers are also the customers because the amateurs reap the revenue that should have gone to the actual tuning manufacturers meaning those that can actually create are either less inclined to or are out of business. Those that copy can't create, which is why they copy.
You know you will never throw a code with properly remapped software
I also don't think anyone is going to buy every tune on the market to compare them, if your stuff works people will post objective results over time. Encouraging them to try other tunes (depending on how good your own tuning is) could be doing them a disservice as they will simply be wasting their $.
Ok well that leaves one option, the sharing of IP which is not ok. It's not ok in the music industry or in other forms of computer software. I also don't buy in to the "everyone has blood on their hands because the factory files are stolen" theory. All tuners can and should start with a base file and make their own changes, instead many copy which again isn't ok. I'm sure everyone on this forum works for a living, and by doing so expects to be paid for their work. Again the downside to this tool is that it makes it even easier for someone's hard work to be shared with those who shouldn't be in the business in the first place. The losers are the people that create the best software, that ends up in amateur hands with the amateurs profiting. The losers are also the customers because the amateurs reap the revenue that should have gone to the actual tuning manufacturers meaning those that can actually create are either less inclined to or are out of business. Those that copy can't create, which is why they copy.
You know you will never throw a code with properly remapped software
I also don't think anyone is going to buy every tune on the market to compare them, if your stuff works people will post objective results over time. Encouraging them to try other tunes (depending on how good your own tuning is) could be doing them a disservice as they will simply be wasting their $.I don't see a problem emailing a tune file and allowing a client to see what's in there, if they have the tools and the drive. As for other tuners, the only value our file would be to them would be academic, since what you can really do on a factory car is pretty limited and we run very conservative files (to keep the cars healthy, happy, and together) and what we do to tune for our hardware (intercoolers, intakes, turbos, injectors, etc.) is really only beneficial if the customer has our exact hardware package ... and (unlike the software issue) that *IS* an instance where the IP is enforcible, so there's no threat there, you know?
Last edited by Speedriven1; 01-27-2011 at 10:38 AM.
01-27-2011, 11:23 AM
#27
Former Vendor of MBWorld
With all these "ask RT" replies.. I think people don't really know who Jo is? First off Jo is a great guy (don't think anyone is questioning that). Jo worked for RT. So why can't we just asks Jo? The guy knows what he's talking about.
Generally speaking. This industry is crazy cut throat. If one company gets a vendors licence yanked. They are quick to make claims as to why "They" stopped carrying the product. Its this industries telegraphed left hook. The only problem is they've just been punched in the face. So, their Left counter is so telegraphed.. everyone seen it coming.
You never hear a company that is no longer allowed to sell a product. Make the claim "It's such a good product, I wish we could still sell it."
In any event. The folk on this forum that are looking for a nice exhaust system and a quality human being to deal with. Jo is your guy.
Generally speaking. This industry is crazy cut throat. If one company gets a vendors licence yanked. They are quick to make claims as to why "They" stopped carrying the product. Its this industries telegraphed left hook. The only problem is they've just been punched in the face. So, their Left counter is so telegraphed.. everyone seen it coming.
You never hear a company that is no longer allowed to sell a product. Make the claim "It's such a good product, I wish we could still sell it."
In any event. The folk on this forum that are looking for a nice exhaust system and a quality human being to deal with. Jo is your guy.
01-27-2011, 01:20 PM
#28
Banned
Thread Starter
With all these "ask RT" replies.. I think people don't really know who Jo is? First off Jo is a great guy (don't think anyone is questioning that). Jo worked for RT. So why can't we just asks Jo? The guy knows what he's talking about.
Generally speaking. This industry is crazy cut throat. If one company gets a vendors licence yanked. They are quick to make claims as to why "They" stopped carrying the product. Its this industries telegraphed left hook. The only problem is they've just been punched in the face. So, their Left counter is so telegraphed.. everyone seen it coming.
You never hear a company that is no longer allowed to sell a product. Make the claim "It's such a good product, I wish we could still sell it."
In any event. The folk on this forum that are looking for a nice exhaust system and a quality human being to deal with. Jo is your guy.
Generally speaking. This industry is crazy cut throat. If one company gets a vendors licence yanked. They are quick to make claims as to why "They" stopped carrying the product. Its this industries telegraphed left hook. The only problem is they've just been punched in the face. So, their Left counter is so telegraphed.. everyone seen it coming.
You never hear a company that is no longer allowed to sell a product. Make the claim "It's such a good product, I wish we could still sell it."
In any event. The folk on this forum that are looking for a nice exhaust system and a quality human being to deal with. Jo is your guy.
Also, that is SO true! LOL!!
01-27-2011, 11:46 PM
#29
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E63
Again: HOW does a tool that cannot read out a file make file sharing easier? Maybe I'm just super-dense (believe me: that's possible!) but if a given tuner doesn't want to email a given client a tune file, then that's between that tuner and their customer, no?
I don't see a problem emailing a tune file and allowing a client to see what's in there, if they have the tools and the drive. As for other tuners, the only value our file would be to them would be academic, since what you can really do on a factory car is pretty limited and we run very conservative files (to keep the cars healthy, happy, and together) and what we do to tune for our hardware (intercoolers, intakes, turbos, injectors, etc.) is really only beneficial if the customer has our exact hardware package ... and (unlike the software issue) that *IS* an instance where the IP is enforcible, so there's no threat there, you know?
I don't see a problem emailing a tune file and allowing a client to see what's in there, if they have the tools and the drive. As for other tuners, the only value our file would be to them would be academic, since what you can really do on a factory car is pretty limited and we run very conservative files (to keep the cars healthy, happy, and together) and what we do to tune for our hardware (intercoolers, intakes, turbos, injectors, etc.) is really only beneficial if the customer has our exact hardware package ... and (unlike the software issue) that *IS* an instance where the IP is enforcible, so there's no threat there, you know?
Enforcing IP for both software and hardware is like trying to skate uphill. I'm sure you know this having worked in the business as long as you have. No need to publicly post anything more about this.
This tool essentially devalues software which brings us to the situation I posted about before about those who create not making their $ back, and those who copy not being able to create.
I may be wrong because I haven't called to ask directly but I don't believe renntech is sad they are no longer using the tool, I highly highly doubt it.
01-28-2011, 12:13 AM
#30
Member
01-28-2011, 12:38 AM
#31
Former Vendor of MBWorld
It's the emailing of the file from tuner to customer that's the problem, the file is out of the ECU and can be emailed anywhere for anyone to hack.
Enforcing IP for both software and hardware is like trying to skate uphill. I'm sure you know this having worked in the business as long as you have. No need to publicly post anything more about this.
This tool essentially devalues software which brings us to the situation I posted about before about those who create not making their $ back, and those who copy not being able to create.
I may be wrong because I haven't called to ask directly but I don't believe renntech is sad they are no longer using the tool, I highly highly doubt it.
Enforcing IP for both software and hardware is like trying to skate uphill. I'm sure you know this having worked in the business as long as you have. No need to publicly post anything more about this.
This tool essentially devalues software which brings us to the situation I posted about before about those who create not making their $ back, and those who copy not being able to create.
I may be wrong because I haven't called to ask directly but I don't believe renntech is sad they are no longer using the tool, I highly highly doubt it.
I can see and respect what you are saying. From my knowledge of the 63 ECU, You can have all the emailed files you want. Even hacking them to work on other car. The problem is, if its a first time flash for the car or from a new tuner. You need a BDM tool to upload the file to the ECU. Without that tool, passing around a 63 file isn't any good. Thats why First time flashes of an ECU have to have the ECU sent in to be flashed. After that then Files can be emailed.
So lets say some one sends in there ECU to be flashed. They get it flashed and also receive a remote tuner married to that cars ECU. Now a new file comes along via email. This shady person emails it off to a buddy to crack it open. The files does get cracked. So what happens now? The person who cracked it maybe in possession of a file that can work on any 63. However they can't do anything with it. Unless they have a BDM tool.
So the person scores a BDM tool. Now you need know what software you are going to need to communicate with the BDM tool. If you get that far, you need to know how to use the BDM tool. where do you place the pins on the board. those sort of things.
From my knowledge the said company only had exclusive rights to the 63 remote flash device. I got that info from the mfg of the remote flashers. Sure they sold 55 flash devices for the 55s. I can totally see how that could present issues because you can flash via OBDII on some of those.
What people don't know out these Remote tuners is... If you take your remote flash device and stick it in some one else car. It will lock you out. In turn rendering the device useless until it is unlocked by the mfg.
I totally respect where you're coming from. Know this though, If you know what you are doing and have the right tools.. You can rip anyones tune from the ECU.
I personaly think this device is great. Being able to switch from a pump gas map to a 100 octane map without visiting the shop is very cool and convenient. I think this is a nice start to making tuning more accessible for the folk who live far from their tuning shop. Who know maybe one day this will lead to having a device as nice as a COBB access port.
Last edited by MBH motorsports; 01-28-2011 at 12:45 AM.
01-28-2011, 12:47 AM
#32
Member
It's the emailing of the file from tuner to customer that's the problem, the file is out of the ECU and can be emailed anywhere for anyone to hack.
Enforcing IP for both software and hardware is like trying to skate uphill. I'm sure you know this having worked in the business as long as you have. No need to publicly post anything more about this.
This tool essentially devalues software which brings us to the situation I posted about before about those who create not making their $ back, and those who copy not being able to create.
I may be wrong because I haven't called to ask directly but I don't believe renntech is sad they are no longer using the tool, I highly highly doubt it.
Enforcing IP for both software and hardware is like trying to skate uphill. I'm sure you know this having worked in the business as long as you have. No need to publicly post anything more about this.
This tool essentially devalues software which brings us to the situation I posted about before about those who create not making their $ back, and those who copy not being able to create.
I may be wrong because I haven't called to ask directly but I don't believe renntech is sad they are no longer using the tool, I highly highly doubt it.
1. you would have to crack the encryption.
2. figure out what firmware version is on the ecu currently as the encrypted file only corresponds to that fw version. (MB likes to have 20+ versions of any particular file, what that means they randomly relocate map locations within the file). And with over 9700 maps in the me9.7 that a lot of searching and comparing.
Or what can happen you send an ecu to any tuner that you want to steal a file from. Pay to 1 tune and pull the file right of the eprom when it gets mailed back.
What is easier and what do you think happens more often?
01-28-2011, 12:58 AM
#33
Member
Good points hooley. That reminds me of one more point. The ecu has to initially be enabled to accept obdii flashing by altering the factory encryption. Otherwise bdm is the only way to access file. Majority of MB ecus do not support obdii file extraction, only uploads.
01-28-2011, 10:25 AM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
1) Buy another ECU.
or
2) Buy the BDM programmer with the appropriate pad (I do not know the techincal term), and the holder. Software? You can buy a BDM programmer for cheap on eBay but the ones I have seen, do not have a ME97 "pad."
What is cheaper? Which software to use to extract the tuned file and reflash the same ECU? I'm not sure if I am asking the correct questions, I just want a means to being able to reflash MY OWN ECU and MY OWN tune if the dealer happens to flash over and to minimize my down time.
Seems like we are going off tangent here and need a new thread.
Last edited by Sincity; 01-28-2011 at 10:29 AM.
01-28-2011, 03:23 PM
#35
Member
To minimize dealer flashing ECUs and sending off to tuner to reflash, I only see two options:
1) Buy another ECU.
or
2) Buy the BDM programmer with the appropriate pad (I do not know the techincal term), and the holder. Software? You can buy a BDM programmer for cheap on eBay but the ones I have seen, do not have a ME97 "pad."
What is cheaper? Which software to use to extract the tuned file and reflash the same ECU? I'm not sure if I am asking the correct questions, I just want a means to being able to reflash MY OWN ECU and MY OWN tune if the dealer happens to flash over and to minimize my down time.
Seems like we are going off tangent here and need a new thread.
1) Buy another ECU.
or
2) Buy the BDM programmer with the appropriate pad (I do not know the techincal term), and the holder. Software? You can buy a BDM programmer for cheap on eBay but the ones I have seen, do not have a ME97 "pad."
What is cheaper? Which software to use to extract the tuned file and reflash the same ECU? I'm not sure if I am asking the correct questions, I just want a means to being able to reflash MY OWN ECU and MY OWN tune if the dealer happens to flash over and to minimize my down time.
Seems like we are going off tangent here and need a new thread.
Only time dealers flash cars is if there is a campaign, recall out or you drop the car of with warning lights or drivability issues. Otherwise there is no reason for them to flash. Remember techs are paid by the work they do not hourly. So if there is no reason for them to stand by a computer and flash the ecu they won't. They don't get paid if they do random things at will.
01-28-2011, 04:57 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: California, USA
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Honestly I think option 1 is the cheaper and safer way. I have seen ecus get fried by bdm tools. By the time you buy a bdm from a reputable source, get the fixtures, software etc. it will cost more than a second ecu.
Only time dealers flash cars is if there is a campaign, recall out or you drop the car of with warning lights or drivability issues. Otherwise there is no reason for them to flash. Remember techs are paid by the work they do not hourly. So if there is no reason for them to stand by a computer and flash the ecu they won't. They don't get paid if they do random things at will.
Only time dealers flash cars is if there is a campaign, recall out or you drop the car of with warning lights or drivability issues. Otherwise there is no reason for them to flash. Remember techs are paid by the work they do not hourly. So if there is no reason for them to stand by a computer and flash the ecu they won't. They don't get paid if they do random things at will.
The problem with buying a second stock ECU so that you can swap it into the car before going to the dealer is that you may get a check engine light depending on your mods. For example, if you have eliminated the primary or secondary cats and have turned off the O2 sensors via software on your tuned ECU, then as soon as you plug back the stock ECU, you should get a CEL, which may then throw the dealer off as well.
I wish someone would figure out a way to allow the 63 ECUs to be flashed without having to send the ECU to the tuner just like the case with the 55k. I realize the encryption is the hurdle at the moment, but I still have hope that (in time) we will figure it out.
Last edited by MB_Forever; 01-28-2011 at 04:59 PM.
01-28-2011, 06:23 PM
#38
Member
There are dealers that are instructed to check and flash the latest version of software upon diagnostics. My local dealer is one of them. I know of two others around me that do as well.
The problem with buying a second stock ECU so that you can swap it into the car before going to the dealer is that you may get a check engine light depending on your mods. For example, if you have eliminated the primary or secondary cats and have turned off the O2 sensors via software on your tuned ECU, then as soon as you plug back the stock ECU, you should get a CEL, which may then throw the dealer off as well.
I wish someone would figure out a way to allow the 63 ECUs to be flashed without having to send the ECU to the tuner just like the case with the 55k. I realize the encryption is the hurdle at the moment, but I still have hope that (in time) we will figure it out.
The problem with buying a second stock ECU so that you can swap it into the car before going to the dealer is that you may get a check engine light depending on your mods. For example, if you have eliminated the primary or secondary cats and have turned off the O2 sensors via software on your tuned ECU, then as soon as you plug back the stock ECU, you should get a CEL, which may then throw the dealer off as well.
I wish someone would figure out a way to allow the 63 ECUs to be flashed without having to send the ECU to the tuner just like the case with the 55k. I realize the encryption is the hurdle at the moment, but I still have hope that (in time) we will figure it out.
Unless MBUSA released someting within the last year thats not the case. I have worked at a dealer for over 9 1/2 years and never heard of such a thing. Btw. dealer can NOT scan a car and tell if its been flashed.
01-28-2011, 08:54 PM
#39
The RAT, the Block Tuner, and OE's are all pretty much the same device (although I don't believe RENNtech can get them anymore, but they may have some left over). The answer to your question about the dealer flash depends on the specific model. On a G55, for example, you can just plug it back in and reflash the car. On a C350, it needs to be sent back. It depends on which ECU is in the car.
That said, dealers almost never reflash the car unless there is a recall or something. Most vendors will simply re-load the tune for free, in the off-chance that it does happen.
Why would the dealer flash over a tune? Is this something you've experienced?
That said, dealers almost never reflash the car unless there is a recall or something. Most vendors will simply re-load the tune for free, in the off-chance that it does happen.
Why would the dealer flash over a tune? Is this something you've experienced?
Yes Jo, when my throttle body went MB of HE reflashed over my EC Tune??
01-28-2011, 10:13 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
01-28-2011, 11:01 PM
#41
Member
Pretty much goes in line with what I stated earlier. They may flash your ecu if you go in with a check engine light or drivability issue. I'm certain that you had one of the above when you took the car in. Hows the ML doing?
01-28-2011, 11:04 PM
#42
Member
1. Visual evidence that the ecu has been tampered with.
2. The car is undeniably faster than the one next to it in the shop.
With the second one though I would be in the service managers office questioning why they are lining up my car with others
01-28-2011, 11:41 PM
#43
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: California, USA
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
I never said this was an MBUSA policy.... some dealers make it a habbit to check if there is new software available upon diagnostics, and if there is, they automatically flash it. This is usually a dealer policy. Not all dealers do this, but many of them (at least here in California) do. This is not only related to ECU software, but TCU, and instrument cluster, etc...
01-29-2011, 07:16 AM
#44
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
2013 Chevy 427 Torch Red
The ability to switch from a 100 octane race tune and a 91 octane street tune on the same ECU would be a huge benefit. Whether the drag strip or a road course I would love to be able to switch to a race tune. These relatively new versions of 100+ octane tunes are a big part of the hyper improvements in ET's and traps that we are seeing lately.
