Speedriven1

Hello, all - just finished up all the paperwork needed to become an Akrapovik dealer, so I'm considering a group buy, bundled with Speedriven ECU software and Block Tuner, possibly a Carbonio airbox, as well.

Would you guys rather see:

A. exhaust + ECU tune w/ Block Tuner

or

B. exhaust + tune (w/ bt) + airbox

???

Let me know - if everything goes the way I'm being told it will, then our pricing on these items will be VERY competitive.

Sincity

What is a "Block Tuner" and did you ever get the results from the MBH X-pipe that you installed?

Speedriven1

You can see more about the Block Tuner here: https://mbworld.org/forums/s55-amg-s...r-s63-amg.html and here: https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ock-tuner.html

I'm not sure what the car picked up, as it was shipped overseas to the customer, but they usually pick up about 8-12 whp with these.

mthis

The block thing you talking about is that the same as OEtuning?

Sincity

Is this similar to Renntech's RAT? If the dealer flashes over the tune, you still need to send the ECU back to have the tune reloaded, right?

Speedriven1

The RAT, the Block Tuner, and OE's are all pretty much the same device (although I don't believe RENNtech can get them anymore, but they may have some left over). The answer to your question about the dealer flash depends on the specific model. On a G55, for example, you can just plug it back in and reflash the car. On a C350, it needs to be sent back. It depends on which ECU is in the car.

That said, dealers almost never reflash the car unless there is a recall or something. Most vendors will simply re-load the tune for free, in the off-chance that it does happen.

Why would the dealer flash over a tune? Is this something you've experienced?

frag101

I kind of confuse between ECU tune and Block Tuner. Is the ECU tune just for unlocking so the Block Tuner would work? or just like other ECU tune ie. OEtuning, renntech but then what's the advantage of having a Block Tuner ?

Sincity

Ok. So all ME97 needs to be sent back in the case of a reflash. That still hasn't changed. Some people had their ECUs reflashed during service.

Speedriven1

Block tuner allows you to switch between multiple files, but it is not a file. When you get an "ECU tune", you are getting a software file that loads on to your ECU. The Block Tuner (whether our or a similar device from someone else) is the device that loads the file on to the ECU.

Think of it like the SD card in your digital camera. The card is not the picture (the ECU tune), the card is what carries the picture from the camera to the computer.

That said, there are several benefits to having a block tuner.

1. you can (in many cases) tune your car without removing the ECU and shipping it out to the tuner. Even if you have to do this once, you don't have to do this 2 or 3 or 4 times if you want the car tuned on race gas or upgrade the hardware down the road.

2. as above, you can switch between tunes on the fly. If you have a race gas tune on your Block Tuner, you can go out to the track and fill up with race gas, then load the race gas tune for max power. When you burn off that fuel and you want to back to pump, you just flip the switch and flash the ECU.

3. you can load a "valet mode" on to the car, with a custom speed governor, etc. and switch it to that mode when you leave town / valet / transport the car.

4. you can load a factory tune on the car for trips to the dealer (their tools can't tell anything has been changed).

5. if there is an issue with the car or you're getting trouble codes, knock, or misfires (it happens in Cali and especially overseas, with inconsistent fuel quality) you can load a more conservative tune and clear the codes until you have a chance to refuel with better gas.

6. on some models, the Block Tuner can record and log data, and send info. back to the tuner for diagnostics. Then it can be used to reset the lights, re-flash the updates, etc.

Those are the main advantages, but for the really extreme race guys you can compare tunes from different vendors, have a high altitude vs. low altitude tune, have a leaded tune, etc., etc. and easily switch between all of them with nothing more than a computer and a USB cable.

In other words: the Block Tuner is bada**.

Speedriven1

^ I've heard that, also - but never seen it happen. Unless there is a recall or something, re-flashing an ECU is not part of a dealer's regular maintenance operations, and if you go in with a factory file (which you could do, with a block tuner) it would read-out as "A-OK".

GHAZAN

What data can be logged with this device?

Speedriven1

It depends on the model of car. From "nothing" to "everything the ECU sees".

GHAZAN

and the c63?

RStevens63

Yep it's the greatest thing since sliced bread unless you want to keep your software proprietary. Ask RENNtech what happened to their intellectual property once they began using the RAT and then ask them why they no longer do. There is a reason most MB/AMG tuners do not use this tool, even though it does have benefits for the consumer, that being anyone can email a file from one company to another tuner in seconds. The encryption on all these files is childs play for any hacker worth his salt.

Good luck with your sale.

Speedriven1

Sorry, that's just not correct. The Block Tuner cannot read out another tuner's file over the OBD ii then to be emailed elsewhere. What it can read is the car's VIN, and we (whether it's RENNtech, Speedriven, or OE) provide the client with a valid factory file to write back to the ECU.

There is no "pulling down" a file, and the only one at risk of losing IP is the vendor who emails their software to a Block Tuner / RAT client (since the client can, at that point, email the file to whomever he wants). The advantage and benefit is 100% to the client ... which I always thought was a good thing.



As you point out, "any hacker worth his salt" can already read out these ECUs (indeed, Bosch will sell you the tools to do it), and since the Block Tuner can't read out files, the only people I need to worry about my IP with are my clients ... who paid for their software, right? If they paid for it, they should be able to do what they like with it, no?

RStevens63

I think you missed my point, customers can and have emailed files from one tuner to another tuner which was made possible specifically by this device.

That is why only 2 MB AMG tuners use it.

Again talk to RT about all the IP they lost to thieves around the world.

Tuners have 2 lines of defense from having their hard work stolen.

1) is not allowing the file to be read out, however the block, RAT whatever eliminates this issue because tuners email files to their customers. Therein lies the problem

2) the encryption of the tuning hardware itself, which sucks and nearly everyone can hack.

So most tuners rely on #1.

It's common knowledge who makes this tool, and also how much actual cost is on the block or RAT. Less than $50. For someone who enjoys bashing other vendors regarding pricing, I wonder what your customers think of the x10 markup?

Speedriven1

Simple: I don't buy the tool for $50. I don't do enough volume to buy them for much less than I sell them (I have about 30% to play with, FYI).

This is kind of a ridiculous comment on your part, since I don't think you're implying that Best Buy is making $200 on a $279 iPod because it only costs Apple $79 to make it - but I get your point, and it's well-founded.

That said, I think you're simply mistaken about the Block Tuner endangering IP or "enabling" other tuners to get each other's files. As you point out, it's there - people with the right tools can read out files from any ECU and then email it, post it online, whatever they want. What you're not effectively doing is communicating to me (which I add because someone else might understand perfectly clearly) what the "problem" is.

Are you of the opinion that an end-user should not have full access to whatever software they bought? It's not immediately obvious to me that I should be trying to force my clients to protect "my" software - quite the opposite, in fact: I'd like to enable my clients to compare my software to other vendors', right? Ideally, they'd be faster or make more power or throw fewer codes with Speedriven software and then go online and say so, right?

That would be good for all consumers ... so, who's the loser there?

You seem to think the Block Tuners and customers sharing information is a bad thing. Maybe I'm reading you wrong.

GHAZAN

Well, I mean every vendor marks up 1000% so no reason to get on speedrivens case. I think the price is still fair for what it can do.

Can it log data for a C63 and if so, what data?

Speedriven1

LOL! It seems like it, sometimes!

Here is how we price things (maybe this should be a "behind the curtain"): we establish material costs per item (m), cost of tooling over the life of 20 sales (t/20), labor hours in assembling the product (h), R&D hours over the life of 20 kits (rd/20), then we add 50%.

SO ... assuming we have a software file for an V12 using some very rough (but not outlandish) numbers. Material cost is effectively $0. Say that tooling is approx. $10k per new ECU model (so, $10,000/20 = $500). 2 hours' labor is $200 (at shop rate, because a tech cannot be in 2 places at once, so the cost TO THE SHOP is $200, since that is what I can bill for 2 hours of service labor). Assume 50 hours in decrypting the file ($5000) plus 5 hours' of dyno time ($750), which (over 20 sales) is $287.50.

$500 + $200 + $287.50 = $987.50 * 1.5 = $1481.25 ... there is a bit of wiggle room there, and this is a bit simplified, but now you can see where a retail price of $1490 comes from.

If you see a price that is much higher, start to ask questions. You might be getting some real value there, or you might be getting taken for a ride.

If you see a price that is much LOWER than that ... well, maybe they didn't do as much R&D as they said they did. OR maybe they already got their initial investment back and want to flood the market to squeeze competitors - whatever the reason is, it's worth it (as a consumer) to at least ask and find out what you're really getting for your money.

goalie_k

and the tuning files in the ecu are? Maybe you should ask RT where they stole all there files from - it was not from a RAT device....

RStevens63

The only reason an end user has to want full access to a file would be to modify it or send it to another tuner. In the case of the former, no tuner wants their customer to modify their files simply because the customer doesn't do that for a living. Similarly you would not ask say a police officer to perform heart surgery, right?
Ok well that leaves one option, the sharing of IP which is not ok. It's not ok in the music industry or in other forms of computer software. I also don't buy in to the "everyone has blood on their hands because the factory files are stolen" theory. All tuners can and should start with a base file and make their own changes, instead many copy which again isn't ok. I'm sure everyone on this forum works for a living, and by doing so expects to be paid for their work. Again the downside to this tool is that it makes it even easier for someone's hard work to be shared with those who shouldn't be in the business in the first place. The losers are the people that create the best software, that ends up in amateur hands with the amateurs profiting. The losers are also the customers because the amateurs reap the revenue that should have gone to the actual tuning manufacturers meaning those that can actually create are either less inclined to or are out of business. Those that copy can't create, which is why they copy.
You know you will never throw a code with properly remapped software I also don't think anyone is going to buy every tune on the market to compare them, if your stuff works people will post objective results over time. Encouraging them to try other tunes (depending on how good your own tuning is) could be doing them a disservice as they will simply be wasting their $.

RStevens63

Out of respect for speedriven's thread I'm not going to go down this road with you, at least publicly.

c32AMG-DTM

Speedriven,

First, I'd like to express thanks for the transparency and detail that you are comfortable with posting publicly. It's refreshing. Wanted to comment on this piece:
IMHO, it depends on what you view the consumer "bought." Did they buy the software code, or simply the utility of that code? If I buy a copy of Office 2010, Microsoft allows me to benefit from the use of their program that I rightfully and legally paid for - but (AFAIK) they don't allow me to read/copy their source code (i.e. IP) for any purpose. Worth noting, from what I recall, the built-in IP-protecting features of Office 2000 were much less rigid than 2010 - protecting corporate IP has become a much larger, front-burner issue in the last decade.

Do you think we'll ever get to a point where tuning customers will have to agree to an EULA and face civil or criminal penalties if he/she violates it?

Speedriven1

Absolutely not, because the tuners don't own the software / source code.

The only way something like what you describe could happen is if a tuner writes something like a new OS or kernel for the factory ECU and generates some kind of copyright or patent. That's why there are so few claims of "patent infringement" or IP violations on re-flashes: you can't sue someone for stealing what wasn't yours to begin with.

Now, let's say Speedriven writes a new OS and generates a new kernel which completely overwrites the factory firmware. Then Speedriven patents and copyrights the OS, kernel, etc. If another tuner were to read it out (not difficult) and change the table values and re-sell it, that would be a clear violation of Speedriven's IP.

"Intellectual Property" is a term that gets tossed around quite a bit - mostly (it seems to me) by people who 1. don't have the full picture, 2. don't fully understand intellectual property law, or 3. have drunk way too much Kool-Aid.

These are great questions - keep 'em comin'!

Speedriven1

Sorry - forgot to answer this last night.

On an ME9.7, the Block tuner can log quite a bit, including RPM, throttle position, vehicle speed, the wideband O2s, timing, etc.

^ lots of useful stuff.