Some Weistec supercharger stuff
05-02-2011, 09:00 AM
#26
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SLK 55
The only thing I don't understand is why known families like Brabus , Renntech , Kleemann etc.... "failed" on this project but Weistec ( never heard of them before... ) managed to get something out.....
Even if I had the money to buy this thing , I would wait for somebody else to blow his engine
Even if I had the money to buy this thing , I would wait for somebody else to blow his engine
as for Brabus....What did they really do for the 63 amg platform....NOTHING
They dont even have a powerful exhaust system like other tuners do for the 63. They are much more concened with V12 engines
05-07-2011, 09:23 AM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
Maverick, I'm very impressed with your collection of Benzes. To top it up, they all wear HRE's. *drool*
05-07-2011, 09:50 AM
#30
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney,Australia
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E55,S500,C200 KOMP,SV300 ,LANDCRUISER SAHARA
I've been spending some time lately on the Camaro forums and more and more engines are blowing now that more miles are being put on them.
Of course, sometimes the tunes are off and the gas is bad so those are obviously highly relevant factors but with F/I if things go wrong they go wrong real fast.
I'm convinced now, forced induction on a motor that is not built for it is too risky.
At low boost risk is simply minimized.
The photos show a real nice clean product. Congrats to the owner. The twin screw looks just like a Lysholm. Just saying maybe it's a coincidence.
Of course, sometimes the tunes are off and the gas is bad so those are obviously highly relevant factors but with F/I if things go wrong they go wrong real fast.
I'm convinced now, forced induction on a motor that is not built for it is too risky.
At low boost risk is simply minimized.
The photos show a real nice clean product. Congrats to the owner. The twin screw looks just like a Lysholm. Just saying maybe it's a coincidence.
Sonny,
Your on the money there,boost is "risky business" to the "bolt on " preformance shop,You must have extensive knowledge about cylinder pressure / temperature & tuning.These are the 3 key area's,break one from the link and you will have yourself a "blown" engine.We specialise in boost and undertsand it.Altering the the calibration to suit boost is one that is best done custom to suit the vehicle..the concept of "one" suits all can lead to diaster as well.I will be watching bens project very closley and running my eyes over it.
regards sonny
05-07-2011, 11:00 AM
#31
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
2014 Audi RS7
Sonny,
I have been watching the Weistec S/C very closely because I am also interested. I also agree with everything you said above but the challenge is the tuning IS being done off site from someone not on the dyno and thats dangerous when you get a canned tune for that set up and every engine/exhaust is different. Getting enough fuel from the stock ECU is challenging enough and getting past all the MB AMG torque limiters may be impossible. The idea is great but I cannot find any real life positive track experiences. The tranny in auto (S) mode will not shift gears properly at WOT above a certain power point. Changing in manual has helped get around that obstacle.
JRCart has spent an endless amount of $$$ on his set up and its probably very good on the dyno with a one gear pull but as soon as you change gears the ECU reads the torque value and cuts back. Running in manual mode may help that situation but something is holding these cars back. All I can determine is that there are limiters of some kind in the ECU that are restricting the complete package to perform as we know and hope it will.
Can you help me out and what is your suggestion?
I have been watching the Weistec S/C very closely because I am also interested. I also agree with everything you said above but the challenge is the tuning IS being done off site from someone not on the dyno and thats dangerous when you get a canned tune for that set up and every engine/exhaust is different. Getting enough fuel from the stock ECU is challenging enough and getting past all the MB AMG torque limiters may be impossible. The idea is great but I cannot find any real life positive track experiences. The tranny in auto (S) mode will not shift gears properly at WOT above a certain power point. Changing in manual has helped get around that obstacle.
JRCart has spent an endless amount of $$$ on his set up and its probably very good on the dyno with a one gear pull but as soon as you change gears the ECU reads the torque value and cuts back. Running in manual mode may help that situation but something is holding these cars back. All I can determine is that there are limiters of some kind in the ECU that are restricting the complete package to perform as we know and hope it will.
Can you help me out and what is your suggestion?
05-07-2011, 11:45 AM
#32
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney,Australia
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E55,S500,C200 KOMP,SV300 ,LANDCRUISER SAHARA
Sonny,
I have been watching the Weistec S/C very closely because I am also interested. I also agree with everything you said above but the challenge is the tuning IS being done off site from someone not on the dyno and thats dangerous when you get a canned tune for that set up and every engine/exhaust is different. Getting enough fuel from the stock ECU is challenging enough and getting past all the MB AMG torque limiters may be impossible. The idea is great but I cannot find any real life positive track experiences. The tranny in auto (S) mode will not shift gears properly at WOT above a certain power point. Changing in manual has helped get around that obstacle.
JRCart has spent an endless amount of $$$ on his set up and its probably very good on the dyno with a one gear pull but as soon as you change gears the ECU reads the torque value and cuts back. Running in manual mode may help that situation but something is holding these cars back. All I can determine is that there are limiters of some kind in the ECU that are restricting the complete package to perform as we know and hope it will.
Can you help me out and what is your suggestion?
I have been watching the Weistec S/C very closely because I am also interested. I also agree with everything you said above but the challenge is the tuning IS being done off site from someone not on the dyno and thats dangerous when you get a canned tune for that set up and every engine/exhaust is different. Getting enough fuel from the stock ECU is challenging enough and getting past all the MB AMG torque limiters may be impossible. The idea is great but I cannot find any real life positive track experiences. The tranny in auto (S) mode will not shift gears properly at WOT above a certain power point. Changing in manual has helped get around that obstacle.
JRCart has spent an endless amount of $$$ on his set up and its probably very good on the dyno with a one gear pull but as soon as you change gears the ECU reads the torque value and cuts back. Running in manual mode may help that situation but something is holding these cars back. All I can determine is that there are limiters of some kind in the ECU that are restricting the complete package to perform as we know and hope it will.
Can you help me out and what is your suggestion?
DADS63,
You are very right there !!! its gonna be a challenge in itself !!...when i make this post i,m not aiming at anyone or business.Heres how it goes,fitting a supercharger to a car of this technology poses a issue...the issues are as follows..
1 - The trans ecu would have a torque thresold preprogrammed
2- The engines now gets to the limiter faster
3- Transmission runs hotter
4 -Trans ecu retards timing bwteen changes
- I,ll run thru the issues as numbered above...
1 - With the factory trans ecu having a torque thresold programmed into the ecu to "protect" the transmission is gonna be one of the biggest issue to get around as to my knowledge,there isnt anyone who has cracked the trans ecu to be able to up the torque thresold.Theres ppl who say they have,well this is there chance to show us...
2 - This is a bigger issue then the first one as we have this issue with the holdens when we supercharge or turbo them.What actually happens is the engine revs so much faster then stock ,thatthe trans ecu calibration cant keep up with the engine resulting in it hitting the limiter.We can get round this on the holdens as we have acess to the trans ecu,what we do is lower the "shift time" thresolds & also increase the shift rpms...as i said in the above,this is the time for the ppl who have "cracked the trans ecu to show us...that they have acess to the trans program and the ability to program it..
3 - This is another issue as the trans ecu has "hot" shift patterns programmed in the ecu,unless someone has the ability to make changes to the trans ecu...the car will suffer as,naturally the trans will run hotter with the extra power..
4 - This issue is also a very big one as it results in a blown box.The factory ecu retards the ignition timing between changes to "protect" the transmission as well as resulting in "smoother changes".Fitting a bloweror supercharger results in the engine reving alot quicker and producing silly amounts of torque,timing retard between changes results in the clutches slipping in small spurts eventually resulting burnt destroyed clutches...this will also be a time for the mercedes "tranny tuners to shine...
regards sonny
05-07-2011, 11:56 AM
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
2014 Audi RS7
Sonny,
I was just asking questions and thank you for your honest answers.
What I don't understand is that people are installing these S/C kits when there is NO fix for all the limiters and problems you just mentioned. Its great to have a dyno number that impresses everyone but if we can't use it in real world applications/track then whats the use??
Thanks,
Keith
I was just asking questions and thank you for your honest answers.
What I don't understand is that people are installing these S/C kits when there is NO fix for all the limiters and problems you just mentioned. Its great to have a dyno number that impresses everyone but if we can't use it in real world applications/track then whats the use??
Thanks,
Keith
05-07-2011, 11:57 AM
#34
Super Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: seattle
Posts: 837
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
20 Posts
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
I agree that there have not been really any results from this setup other than the base dyno and jrcarts dyno. From talking to Weistec there seems to be a few of these things out there. I do not understand why they are not marketing this thing better.
Dads C63,
As far as the torque management goes though I want to make some input on this. It gets talked about a lot here and I think that there is some misunderstanding about how it works. The biggest part of the tq management is during the shifts. It pulls timing to reduce tq for smoother and less aggressive shifts. This allows the transmission to smoothly shift without a push in the gear change. What Mercedes is trying to do is make the car feel as though it did not shift by sliding one gear out and another gear in without a push or pull on the shifts. It also reduces driveline shock etc. When you make more power the calculated torque goes up based mostly on the Air Mass sensor readings. The ecu then sends this tq info to the transmission for shift pressure. This is a bit more simple than it really all is but the jist of it.
If you make more power than stock the transmission may also have to adapt to the high load. This may take a few shifts at that load point. As you all know this may be difficult as a full throttle 3-4 shift is hard to duplicate over and over to get it to adapt.
The big difference on a supercharger setup and a NOS system is that with NOS there is no way for the ecu to calculate the additional tq. The additional air is not metered and in essence the power is not detected by the ecu or the tcu. With the supercharger the additional air flow is metered by the Air Mass sensors and the ecu can calculate for the additional tq. Weistec also left the tq management in place to reduce tq during shifts.
Dads C63, I think that you guys started pulling the NOS during shifts which in essence is tq management.
If someone can get the transmission control unit to increase pressure for gear changes then the rest is easy to the hard part limits of the transmission.
I have been trying to modify the base settings on the valve bodies and have been flat amazed by the tcu's ability to adjust out major changes. I need to tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs and see how this affects it also.
Should make gear changes quicker and a bit more harsh. Tuning would be ideal. I talked to a Mercedes engineer a month or two ago and was discussing this and he said that he did not even have access to this info in the tcu.
Jrcarts car is different than the c63 though. I drove a black series the other day and that transmission shifts like a brick compared to the c63. I have been looking at sucking the tune out of one car and dumping it into another tcu as a possibility also. Trial and error.
Dads C63,
As far as the torque management goes though I want to make some input on this. It gets talked about a lot here and I think that there is some misunderstanding about how it works. The biggest part of the tq management is during the shifts. It pulls timing to reduce tq for smoother and less aggressive shifts. This allows the transmission to smoothly shift without a push in the gear change. What Mercedes is trying to do is make the car feel as though it did not shift by sliding one gear out and another gear in without a push or pull on the shifts. It also reduces driveline shock etc. When you make more power the calculated torque goes up based mostly on the Air Mass sensor readings. The ecu then sends this tq info to the transmission for shift pressure. This is a bit more simple than it really all is but the jist of it.
If you make more power than stock the transmission may also have to adapt to the high load. This may take a few shifts at that load point. As you all know this may be difficult as a full throttle 3-4 shift is hard to duplicate over and over to get it to adapt.
The big difference on a supercharger setup and a NOS system is that with NOS there is no way for the ecu to calculate the additional tq. The additional air is not metered and in essence the power is not detected by the ecu or the tcu. With the supercharger the additional air flow is metered by the Air Mass sensors and the ecu can calculate for the additional tq. Weistec also left the tq management in place to reduce tq during shifts.
Dads C63, I think that you guys started pulling the NOS during shifts which in essence is tq management.
If someone can get the transmission control unit to increase pressure for gear changes then the rest is easy to the hard part limits of the transmission.
I have been trying to modify the base settings on the valve bodies and have been flat amazed by the tcu's ability to adjust out major changes. I need to tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs and see how this affects it also.
Should make gear changes quicker and a bit more harsh. Tuning would be ideal. I talked to a Mercedes engineer a month or two ago and was discussing this and he said that he did not even have access to this info in the tcu.
Jrcarts car is different than the c63 though. I drove a black series the other day and that transmission shifts like a brick compared to the c63. I have been looking at sucking the tune out of one car and dumping it into another tcu as a possibility also. Trial and error.
05-07-2011, 12:18 PM
#35
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney,Australia
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E55,S500,C200 KOMP,SV300 ,LANDCRUISER SAHARA
I agree that there have not been really any results from this setup other than the base dyno and jrcarts dyno. From talking to Weistec there seems to be a few of these things out there. I do not understand why they are not marketing this thing better.
Dads C63,
As far as the torque management goes though I want to make some input on this. It gets talked about a lot here and I think that there is some misunderstanding about how it works. The biggest part of the tq management is during the shifts. It pulls timing to reduce tq for smoother and less aggressive shifts. This allows the transmission to smoothly shift without a push in the gear change. What Mercedes is trying to do is make the car feel as though it did not shift by sliding one gear out and another gear in without a push or pull on the shifts. It also reduces driveline shock etc. When you make more power the calculated torque goes up based mostly on the Air Mass sensor readings. The ecu then sends this tq info to the transmission for shift pressure. This is a bit more simple than it really all is but the jist of it.
If you make more power than stock the transmission may also have to adapt to the high load. This may take a few shifts at that load point. As you all know this may be difficult as a full throttle 3-4 shift is hard to duplicate over and over to get it to adapt.
The big difference on a supercharger setup and a NOS system is that with NOS there is no way for the ecu to calculate the additional tq. The additional air is not metered and in essence the power is not detected by the ecu or the tcu. With the supercharger the additional air flow is metered by the Air Mass sensors and the ecu can calculate for the additional tq. Weistec also left the tq management in place to reduce tq during shifts.
Dads C63, I think that you guys started pulling the NOS during shifts which in essence is tq management.
If someone can get the transmission control unit to increase pressure for gear changes then the rest is easy to the hard part limits of the transmission.
I have been trying to modify the base settings on the valve bodies and have been flat amazed by the tcu's ability to adjust out major changes. I need to tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs and see how this affects it also.
Should make gear changes quicker and a bit more harsh. Tuning would be ideal. I talked to a Mercedes engineer a month or two ago and was discussing this and he said that he did not even have access to this info in the tcu.
Jrcarts car is different than the c63 though. I drove a black series the other day and that transmission shifts like a brick compared to the c63. I have been looking at sucking the tune out of one car and dumping it into another tcu as a possibility also. Trial and error.
Dads C63,
As far as the torque management goes though I want to make some input on this. It gets talked about a lot here and I think that there is some misunderstanding about how it works. The biggest part of the tq management is during the shifts. It pulls timing to reduce tq for smoother and less aggressive shifts. This allows the transmission to smoothly shift without a push in the gear change. What Mercedes is trying to do is make the car feel as though it did not shift by sliding one gear out and another gear in without a push or pull on the shifts. It also reduces driveline shock etc. When you make more power the calculated torque goes up based mostly on the Air Mass sensor readings. The ecu then sends this tq info to the transmission for shift pressure. This is a bit more simple than it really all is but the jist of it.
If you make more power than stock the transmission may also have to adapt to the high load. This may take a few shifts at that load point. As you all know this may be difficult as a full throttle 3-4 shift is hard to duplicate over and over to get it to adapt.
The big difference on a supercharger setup and a NOS system is that with NOS there is no way for the ecu to calculate the additional tq. The additional air is not metered and in essence the power is not detected by the ecu or the tcu. With the supercharger the additional air flow is metered by the Air Mass sensors and the ecu can calculate for the additional tq. Weistec also left the tq management in place to reduce tq during shifts.
Dads C63, I think that you guys started pulling the NOS during shifts which in essence is tq management.
If someone can get the transmission control unit to increase pressure for gear changes then the rest is easy to the hard part limits of the transmission.
I have been trying to modify the base settings on the valve bodies and have been flat amazed by the tcu's ability to adjust out major changes. I need to tighten up the clearances on the clutch packs and see how this affects it also.
Should make gear changes quicker and a bit more harsh. Tuning would be ideal. I talked to a Mercedes engineer a month or two ago and was discussing this and he said that he did not even have access to this info in the tcu.
Jrcarts car is different than the c63 though. I drove a black series the other day and that transmission shifts like a brick compared to the c63. I have been looking at sucking the tune out of one car and dumping it into another tcu as a possibility also. Trial and error.
Though i agree with most of what you have stated,tightening the clutch paks is not gonna solve the issue,have you ever logged a black series ? c63 ? ml63 ? to see how much timing is dragged out between changes ? it takes out herendous amounts if timing.Stopping this alone will improve the situation.but theres more to it.The transmission calibration is usally done by the transmission manufacturers and there very secretive about it.If someones able to access the full calibration ,the key areas as i stated will improve it.
regards sonny
05-07-2011, 12:22 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
2014 Audi RS7
The big difference on a supercharger setup and a NOS system is that with NOS there is no way for the ecu to calculate the additional tq. The additional air is not metered and in essence the power is not detected by the ecu or the tcu. With the supercharger the additional air flow is metered by the Air Mass sensors and the ecu can calculate for the additional tq. Weistec also left the tq management in place to reduce tq during shifts.
Please understand that I am not trying to be argumentative because I really hope someone cracks it. Its frustrating because as you stated, the MB representative said even he doesn't know how to get into the TCU. With that being said, aren't we all chasing our tails until someone does??
Thank you,
Keith
05-07-2011, 12:31 PM
#37
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney,Australia
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E55,S500,C200 KOMP,SV300 ,LANDCRUISER SAHARA
Why is the additional air not metered? It passes by the MAFS just like the air for the S/C? I do understand that we added nitrous but the additional air flow the nitrous creates is recognized and should be accounted for.
Please understand that I am not trying to be argumentative because I really hope someone cracks it. Its frustrating because as you stated, the MB representative said even he doesn't know how to get into the TCU. With that being said, aren't we all chasing our tails until someone does??
Thank you,
Keith
Please understand that I am not trying to be argumentative because I really hope someone cracks it. Its frustrating because as you stated, the MB representative said even he doesn't know how to get into the TCU. With that being said, aren't we all chasing our tails until someone does??
Thank you,
Keith
Keith,
Thats absoloutly correct we are all chasing the same train
regards sonny
05-07-2011, 12:36 PM
#38
Super Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: seattle
Posts: 837
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
20 Posts
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
No worries. Good discussion. From what I remember your nozzles are in the y after the air mass sensors. So you are injecting air and fuel with the nozzle after the meters. I would also think that injecting before the air mass would cause all sorts of problems and the fuel would damage the sensor. I guess you could do a dry shot but I still think that this would seriously drive the ecu crazy.
The tcu thing is going to be a problem for a long while. Thats why I have been thinking of other solutions. Like I said the Black series shifts way harder than the c63 so a suck and blow might be a possible solution. The gear ratios would have to be the same but thats a plus also.
The tcu thing is going to be a problem for a long while. Thats why I have been thinking of other solutions. Like I said the Black series shifts way harder than the c63 so a suck and blow might be a possible solution. The gear ratios would have to be the same but thats a plus also.
05-07-2011, 03:44 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
2014 Audi RS7
We all agree that there are problems with the complete success of this package. Yes, you can install the hardware and it will look cool, sound cool, and dyno reasonably well. For a daily driver and as long as you don't go WOT it will probably perform well. However, my question is how can any manufacturer promote and even sell a kit that has known problems that has NO known solutions?? The problem with the S/C and turbo theories has been software from the very beginning and that problem still exists and no one seems to care?
Don't take me wrong that I am against FI or the idea. I just don't like the fact that a manufacturer can take advantage of customers like this??
WhippleM104, yes the NOS and fuel nozzles are behind the MAFS's because you don't want to spray nitrous and fuel through them. However the additional air will be metered.
Don't take me wrong that I am against FI or the idea. I just don't like the fact that a manufacturer can take advantage of customers like this??
WhippleM104, yes the NOS and fuel nozzles are behind the MAFS's because you don't want to spray nitrous and fuel through them. However the additional air will be metered.
Last edited by Dads C63; 05-07-2011 at 03:47 PM.
05-07-2011, 04:07 PM
#41
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E63
Lots of misinformation posted in this thread. Would take a year to clean it up so I'll just post my own questions for someone at Weistec to answer:
We've never seen a final working dyno graph for jrcart's car. we saw one with a tq limiter cutting in at 5700rpm or so which killed power after. You can tell they didn't lift on the dyno because AFs go back to the pre tq limiter level and yet the power continues to fall off. From what I gather this is a software issue. This would also explain needing to shift in manual mode at the track and the necessitated short shifting. Let's face it if there was a clean pull made why was the graph not posted?
Has anyone even seen a stock 93 octane dyno of a Weistec supercharged car yet? I've seen one 91 octane graph from a CLK BS as its posted on their site but thats all.
How long does it take a company which can make blower pulleys in varying sizes in days to make a billet idler pulley or a solution for the stocker?
None of this makes any sense and with so many large potential sales on the line the communication back from Weistec has been poor to say the least. I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done and again most of it as dads stated is the stuff many people brought up initially; primarily meaning trans software and tcu based torque limiters.
BTW, what's a trans ecu?
Let's also clear this up. If a dealer puts a supercharger on a domestic vehicle that can be tuned with mainstream hardware like diablosport, hpt, sct etc you are not a forced induction specialist. You are 1 of 100,000 bolt-on shops in the world that perform similar work.
Now when you design and manufacture your own supercharger and perform all necessary software tuning in-house you can claim that title.
To the person that stated that the torque nitrous makes is unmetered, que pasa?
Both the ecu and tcu (this is not mb specific) read torque values and can ultimately cap them, neither need to meter air to perform the calculations--regardless the primary 02s are going to pick up on this obviously. At this point I would consider nitrous superior to forced induction for a few reasons. It's not there all the time stressing the driveline, it's been proven to work at the track and on the street, and it suits the design of the M156 much better than forced induction primarily due to the C/R of the engine.
Also the numerically larger gearing of a BS is actually not beneficial to a C63 with serious modification, ask Dads or dodger where they are rpm wise in 4th gear crossing the line.
sonnyakapig mentioned this before, many of the LS3 and LSA Camaro owners who went with superchargers despite having high C/R are now finding out that they aren't as invincible as they once thought. Same goes for the BMW M3 guys depending on whose kit you're using they seem to be popping left and right.
In the end (I'm talking after 50-75k miles) I think common sense will prevail (why the hell are we supercharging these motors to begin with?) and only those with base blower kits will still have a working driveline.
Time will tell.
We've never seen a final working dyno graph for jrcart's car. we saw one with a tq limiter cutting in at 5700rpm or so which killed power after. You can tell they didn't lift on the dyno because AFs go back to the pre tq limiter level and yet the power continues to fall off. From what I gather this is a software issue. This would also explain needing to shift in manual mode at the track and the necessitated short shifting. Let's face it if there was a clean pull made why was the graph not posted?
Has anyone even seen a stock 93 octane dyno of a Weistec supercharged car yet? I've seen one 91 octane graph from a CLK BS as its posted on their site but thats all.
How long does it take a company which can make blower pulleys in varying sizes in days to make a billet idler pulley or a solution for the stocker?
None of this makes any sense and with so many large potential sales on the line the communication back from Weistec has been poor to say the least. I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done and again most of it as dads stated is the stuff many people brought up initially; primarily meaning trans software and tcu based torque limiters.
BTW, what's a trans ecu?
Let's also clear this up. If a dealer puts a supercharger on a domestic vehicle that can be tuned with mainstream hardware like diablosport, hpt, sct etc you are not a forced induction specialist. You are 1 of 100,000 bolt-on shops in the world that perform similar work.
Now when you design and manufacture your own supercharger and perform all necessary software tuning in-house you can claim that title.
To the person that stated that the torque nitrous makes is unmetered, que pasa?
Both the ecu and tcu (this is not mb specific) read torque values and can ultimately cap them, neither need to meter air to perform the calculations--regardless the primary 02s are going to pick up on this obviously. At this point I would consider nitrous superior to forced induction for a few reasons. It's not there all the time stressing the driveline, it's been proven to work at the track and on the street, and it suits the design of the M156 much better than forced induction primarily due to the C/R of the engine.
Also the numerically larger gearing of a BS is actually not beneficial to a C63 with serious modification, ask Dads or dodger where they are rpm wise in 4th gear crossing the line.
sonnyakapig mentioned this before, many of the LS3 and LSA Camaro owners who went with superchargers despite having high C/R are now finding out that they aren't as invincible as they once thought. Same goes for the BMW M3 guys depending on whose kit you're using they seem to be popping left and right.
In the end (I'm talking after 50-75k miles) I think common sense will prevail (why the hell are we supercharging these motors to begin with?) and only those with base blower kits will still have a working driveline.
Time will tell.
Last edited by RStevens63; 05-07-2011 at 04:12 PM.
05-07-2011, 04:36 PM
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 288
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
RR Evoque Dynamic, Benz Valente (work hack)
Does brabus do anything to their ML63 Bi Turbo in regards to tranny tuning?
I have heard of this issue in the local Aussie FPV community with the 6 speed Getrag Auto
'box and the only way around it is to manually shift.
I have heard of this issue in the local Aussie FPV community with the 6 speed Getrag Auto
'box and the only way around it is to manually shift.
05-07-2011, 04:59 PM
#43
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E63
If you do the math on the tq output of the brabus tt 63s you'll see it's nothing that hasn't been exceeded already by a longshot.
If anyone had the hookup on this it would be Brabus but I think the real problem is even if the tcu limiters were removed or raised, it would just allow the trans to blow sooner.
I just spent some time looking at the xtra kleemann supercharger and it appears they used a roots style supercharger (why?) and you also have to use a piggyback for the ECU? is that correct?
05-07-2011, 07:36 PM
#44
Super Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: seattle
Posts: 837
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
20 Posts
1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
RStevens63,
I am sorry to disagree. The way load is calculated is from Air Mass. It is the primary item used. Mercedes has been doing this for years. The only way to calculate load in an ecu is via airmass or a map density/rpm. This is a calculated value only. It can not measure load. The transmission control gets its load values from the ecu via CAN. It would have no idea what load is without the data from the engine. It might look at throttle position a little also but this is not very precise. Load is different at different tps positions depending on rpm, what gear you are in and up hill down hill, etc. I do not know about other manufacturers as I have only worked at Mercedes dealerships. The O2 sensor is simply looking and correcting the air fuel ratio. It would not matter if it was flowing 200kg/h or 2000kg/h. Air fuel ratio is air fuel ratio. Mercedes uses air mass instead of load density from a map sensor. It is more precise.
I do not understand why you state that the nitrous is metered by the ecu also. What is metering it?
All I am stating is that the supercharger should work better with the torque calculations in the computer. Simply because the additional air is measured.
I just see now way that the nitrous is measured by the ecu. In fact I would think that if one was injecting enough it would start to displace regular intake air. This would in essence reduce the air mass readings. I understand that nos and fuel is going into the cylinder.
I would think that you could read the air mass sensor values at full throttle with and without nos and see if there is a difference across the rpm range. I would love to see what the difference is.
I am sorry to disagree. The way load is calculated is from Air Mass. It is the primary item used. Mercedes has been doing this for years. The only way to calculate load in an ecu is via airmass or a map density/rpm. This is a calculated value only. It can not measure load. The transmission control gets its load values from the ecu via CAN. It would have no idea what load is without the data from the engine. It might look at throttle position a little also but this is not very precise. Load is different at different tps positions depending on rpm, what gear you are in and up hill down hill, etc. I do not know about other manufacturers as I have only worked at Mercedes dealerships. The O2 sensor is simply looking and correcting the air fuel ratio. It would not matter if it was flowing 200kg/h or 2000kg/h. Air fuel ratio is air fuel ratio. Mercedes uses air mass instead of load density from a map sensor. It is more precise.
I do not understand why you state that the nitrous is metered by the ecu also. What is metering it?
All I am stating is that the supercharger should work better with the torque calculations in the computer. Simply because the additional air is measured.
I just see now way that the nitrous is measured by the ecu. In fact I would think that if one was injecting enough it would start to displace regular intake air. This would in essence reduce the air mass readings. I understand that nos and fuel is going into the cylinder.
I would think that you could read the air mass sensor values at full throttle with and without nos and see if there is a difference across the rpm range. I would love to see what the difference is.
05-07-2011, 07:45 PM
#45
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Guys, we are glad to see this high level of intelligence when it comes to the debate of our products. Although we don't want to hijack Maverick’s thread regarding his newly purchased supercharger, we want to clear up some of the recent questions.
Regarding Jim's (Jrcart) Black Series, the biggest issue was breaking OEM plastic idler pulleys. We have not yet hit any torque limiters with the transmission, but we will say this, there are many tables we have calibrated in the ECU that highly influence transmission performance. We are currently testing with our new billet pulley system which consists of all new idler pulleys, and an all new auxiliary pulley which gives the supercharger a higher percentage of belt wrap for our higher horse power packages. Needless to say the car has consistently made 650+ whp and we have kept a close eye on all vitals. Again, this is all in the development process and not available for sale until we approve it like we have with Stage 1.
Dad'sC63, we only market and sell our Stage 1 system. This supercharger system performs flawlessly, and has been tested and approved above our standards. We have shipped to happy customers around the world with nothing but great feedback about our support and technical assistance if any questions arise during an install. Anything beyond this is still in the testing phases. We have successfully installed and calibrated a completely new fuel system, cams, and ported heads and all these products allow us to produce obtainable power gains. We don't offer these (other than the heads) yet because we simply haven't completed all of our testing to say it's perfect. We ultimately hope our products speak for themselves, and this is why we stay quiet many times. Hopefully we can watch your car run down the strip with our supercharger system one day. We are sure fellow members would also love to see that.
Please let us know if there are any questions. Please feel free to call us as well. 877-Weistec. Thanks again guys!
Regarding Jim's (Jrcart) Black Series, the biggest issue was breaking OEM plastic idler pulleys. We have not yet hit any torque limiters with the transmission, but we will say this, there are many tables we have calibrated in the ECU that highly influence transmission performance. We are currently testing with our new billet pulley system which consists of all new idler pulleys, and an all new auxiliary pulley which gives the supercharger a higher percentage of belt wrap for our higher horse power packages. Needless to say the car has consistently made 650+ whp and we have kept a close eye on all vitals. Again, this is all in the development process and not available for sale until we approve it like we have with Stage 1.
Dad'sC63, we only market and sell our Stage 1 system. This supercharger system performs flawlessly, and has been tested and approved above our standards. We have shipped to happy customers around the world with nothing but great feedback about our support and technical assistance if any questions arise during an install. Anything beyond this is still in the testing phases. We have successfully installed and calibrated a completely new fuel system, cams, and ported heads and all these products allow us to produce obtainable power gains. We don't offer these (other than the heads) yet because we simply haven't completed all of our testing to say it's perfect. We ultimately hope our products speak for themselves, and this is why we stay quiet many times. Hopefully we can watch your car run down the strip with our supercharger system one day. We are sure fellow members would also love to see that.
Please let us know if there are any questions. Please feel free to call us as well. 877-Weistec. Thanks again guys!
05-07-2011, 08:29 PM
#46
MBWorld Fanatic!
Am i missing something here?
Why would the torque limiter on the tranny kick-in with the blower but Dad's can run a fully modded car with a 160 shot of spray and its good to go? Nitrous adds a massive amount of torque....
Just looking for an explanation that i haven't seen
Why would the torque limiter on the tranny kick-in with the blower but Dad's can run a fully modded car with a 160 shot of spray and its good to go? Nitrous adds a massive amount of torque....
Just looking for an explanation that i haven't seen
05-07-2011, 10:45 PM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
2014 Audi RS7
Am i missing something here?
Why would the torque limiter on the tranny kick-in with the blower but Dad's can run a fully modded car with a 160 shot of spray and its good to go? Nitrous adds a massive amount of torque....
Just looking for an explanation that i haven't seen
Why would the torque limiter on the tranny kick-in with the blower but Dad's can run a fully modded car with a 160 shot of spray and its good to go? Nitrous adds a massive amount of torque....
Just looking for an explanation that i haven't seen
I know that Weistec keeps saying that they have shipped many stage 1 kits and they work flawlessly. If thats true then can we have a single testimony? Has any of those customers been to the track? I would have to admit that their S/C on a bone stock car will probably function well but that is the limit power wise. Beyond that is where the problems start.
I'll be glad to sit back and wait for some data on their heads and cam set up and the complete package when it happens.
05-08-2011, 12:55 AM
#50
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E63
Am i missing something here?
Why would the torque limiter on the tranny kick-in with the blower but Dad's can run a fully modded car with a 160 shot of spray and its good to go? Nitrous adds a massive amount of torque....
Just looking for an explanation that i haven't seen
Why would the torque limiter on the tranny kick-in with the blower but Dad's can run a fully modded car with a 160 shot of spray and its good to go? Nitrous adds a massive amount of torque....
Just looking for an explanation that i haven't seen
Guys, we are glad to see this high level of intelligence when it comes to the debate of our products. Although we don't want to hijack Maverick’s thread regarding his newly purchased supercharger, we want to clear up some of the recent questions.
Regarding Jim's (Jrcart) Black Series, the biggest issue was breaking OEM plastic idler pulleys. We have not yet hit any torque limiters with the transmission, but we will say this, there are many tables we have calibrated in the ECU that highly influence transmission performance. We are currently testing with our new billet pulley system which consists of all new idler pulleys, and an all new auxiliary pulley which gives the supercharger a higher percentage of belt wrap for our higher horse power packages. Needless to say the car has consistently made 650+ whp and we have kept a close eye on all vitals. Again, this is all in the development process and not available for sale until we approve it like we have with Stage 1.
Dad'sC63, we only market and sell our Stage 1 system. This supercharger system performs flawlessly, and has been tested and approved above our standards. We have shipped to happy customers around the world with nothing but great feedback about our support and technical assistance if any questions arise during an install. Anything beyond this is still in the testing phases. We have successfully installed and calibrated a completely new fuel system, cams, and ported heads and all these products allow us to produce obtainable power gains. We don't offer these (other than the heads) yet because we simply haven't completed all of our testing to say it's perfect. We ultimately hope our products speak for themselves, and this is why we stay quiet many times. Hopefully we can watch your car run down the strip with our supercharger system one day. We are sure fellow members would also love to see that.
Please let us know if there are any questions. Please feel free to call us as well. 877-Weistec. Thanks again guys!
Regarding Jim's (Jrcart) Black Series, the biggest issue was breaking OEM plastic idler pulleys. We have not yet hit any torque limiters with the transmission, but we will say this, there are many tables we have calibrated in the ECU that highly influence transmission performance. We are currently testing with our new billet pulley system which consists of all new idler pulleys, and an all new auxiliary pulley which gives the supercharger a higher percentage of belt wrap for our higher horse power packages. Needless to say the car has consistently made 650+ whp and we have kept a close eye on all vitals. Again, this is all in the development process and not available for sale until we approve it like we have with Stage 1.
Dad'sC63, we only market and sell our Stage 1 system. This supercharger system performs flawlessly, and has been tested and approved above our standards. We have shipped to happy customers around the world with nothing but great feedback about our support and technical assistance if any questions arise during an install. Anything beyond this is still in the testing phases. We have successfully installed and calibrated a completely new fuel system, cams, and ported heads and all these products allow us to produce obtainable power gains. We don't offer these (other than the heads) yet because we simply haven't completed all of our testing to say it's perfect. We ultimately hope our products speak for themselves, and this is why we stay quiet many times. Hopefully we can watch your car run down the strip with our supercharger system one day. We are sure fellow members would also love to see that.
Please let us know if there are any questions. Please feel free to call us as well. 877-Weistec. Thanks again guys!
Interesting comments about going farther into the ECU and finding maps related to transmission performance. I'll wait for Sonny @ Marranos to tell you you're full of crap then laugh with you.
In all seriousness vendors have been banned from this forum for posting as much, be careful. RStevens63,
I am sorry to disagree. The way load is calculated is from Air Mass. It is the primary item used. Mercedes has been doing this for years. The only way to calculate load in an ecu is via airmass or a map density/rpm. This is a calculated value only. It can not measure load. The transmission control gets its load values from the ecu via CAN. It would have no idea what load is without the data from the engine. It might look at throttle position a little also but this is not very precise. Load is different at different tps positions depending on rpm, what gear you are in and up hill down hill, etc. I do not know about other manufacturers as I have only worked at Mercedes dealerships. The O2 sensor is simply looking and correcting the air fuel ratio. It would not matter if it was flowing 200kg/h or 2000kg/h. Air fuel ratio is air fuel ratio. Mercedes uses air mass instead of load density from a map sensor. It is more precise.
I do not understand why you state that the nitrous is metered by the ecu also. What is metering it?
All I am stating is that the supercharger should work better with the torque calculations in the computer. Simply because the additional air is measured.
I just see now way that the nitrous is measured by the ecu. In fact I would think that if one was injecting enough it would start to displace regular intake air. This would in essence reduce the air mass readings. I understand that nos and fuel is going into the cylinder.
I would think that you could read the air mass sensor values at full throttle with and without nos and see if there is a difference across the rpm range. I would love to see what the difference is.
I am sorry to disagree. The way load is calculated is from Air Mass. It is the primary item used. Mercedes has been doing this for years. The only way to calculate load in an ecu is via airmass or a map density/rpm. This is a calculated value only. It can not measure load. The transmission control gets its load values from the ecu via CAN. It would have no idea what load is without the data from the engine. It might look at throttle position a little also but this is not very precise. Load is different at different tps positions depending on rpm, what gear you are in and up hill down hill, etc. I do not know about other manufacturers as I have only worked at Mercedes dealerships. The O2 sensor is simply looking and correcting the air fuel ratio. It would not matter if it was flowing 200kg/h or 2000kg/h. Air fuel ratio is air fuel ratio. Mercedes uses air mass instead of load density from a map sensor. It is more precise.
I do not understand why you state that the nitrous is metered by the ecu also. What is metering it?
All I am stating is that the supercharger should work better with the torque calculations in the computer. Simply because the additional air is measured.
I just see now way that the nitrous is measured by the ecu. In fact I would think that if one was injecting enough it would start to displace regular intake air. This would in essence reduce the air mass readings. I understand that nos and fuel is going into the cylinder.
I would think that you could read the air mass sensor values at full throttle with and without nos and see if there is a difference across the rpm range. I would love to see what the difference is.
Yes the M156 does but I'm not sure how you can say that's the way MB has always done it when they've clearly used speed density more than mass air in the past. Either way I'm familiar with both SD and MA.
I understand that wot tables draw on tps and load maps but at the same time there are load/tq limiters in the ECU and TCU that ultimately put the smack down on performance. This has been reiterated by AMG engineers to members on this and the amg private lounge. "make all the power you want the trans will just continue to dump it". If dads was experiencing shifting issues due to tq limiters then clearly the ecu and tcu are seeing the increased load.
From what you are saying nitrous shouldn't function at all on dads car yet in the end it's still the quickest and fastest 63 out there. I think the end result shows the ECU to be handling what he's stuffing down the engine's throat, and apparently the engine likes it, a lot.
Last edited by RStevens63; 05-08-2011 at 01:02 AM.
