What's the real reason why C63 tires wear so fast?
05-31-2011, 11:07 PM
#26
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cclass
Totally agree with you. I did a lot of research on this topic since I use my car as a daily driver and do about 25K miles per year. It was getting really annoying and expensive. The C63 comes with very extreme toe-in at the rear (spec is .48 degrees total toe-in at rear, compared to only .20 degrees at the front) which means you are essentially draging the rear tires down the road even when you are just cruising. Anything higher than .20 degrees total toe-in is considered unusually high. By the way, the camber spec is virtually the same front and rear at about -1.3 degrees. I do 90% highway miles and still only got about 4K miles out of the OEM pirellis. I switched to a 275 width tire with a much higher treadwear rating (Yokohama Avid Envigor in case anybody cares) and had the dealers alignment guy dial out as much toe-in as possible while remaining within MB safety specs (about .20 degrees total, just like the fronts). Now getting about 15K out of the rears with totally even wear from side to side and can't tell any difference in ride and handling. Sure there are a lot of factors that contribute to the horrible tire wear on this car (as discussed above) but I guaranty you the major one is the extreme toe-in setting from the factory.
06-01-2011, 12:44 AM
#27
MBWorld Fanatic!
I just replaced my tires. The rears were toast at 6000 miles. I went ahead and changed out all 4 with the new Michelin Super Sports. I went with the bigger tire in the rear so we'll see if this set lasts longer!
06-01-2011, 07:43 AM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
7 Posts
2017 Mini Cooper S Clubman ALL4 - British Racing Green
I'm only going to add that I got about 10k off the original pzeros (which I found out later was 235 all around... guess teh dealer got cheap on the new tires). Most of my driving is highway, I live in MD, and work in VA, and drive the beltway around DC (reverse commute, so I don't see much stop stop traffic)...
And I drive like an ******* who just escaped from prison and is being chased by the police...
That leads me to believe, that while I am sure there are many factors as has been mentioned, but road surface and the type of roads (highway vs city streets) plays a really big part in tire wear.
I drive around 48 miles each direction every day...
And I drive like an ******* who just escaped from prison and is being chased by the police...
That leads me to believe, that while I am sure there are many factors as has been mentioned, but road surface and the type of roads (highway vs city streets) plays a really big part in tire wear.
I drive around 48 miles each direction every day...
06-01-2011, 08:57 AM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
jvanbrecht,
I also reverse commute, I live in Alexandria, but work in Stafford. I only managed 7200 out of my PZeros. I also had a few trips up to NJ, and one trip to Pittsburgh on them.
And to be honest, I babied those tires. I went with Yokohamas, an All-Season tire. I have to admit, they do not have the performance of the PZeros, but are great in the rian, and light-median snow. They have thin side walls and tend to flex with cornering forces. But the best benefit is the wear, and the fact that I will not be replacing these every six months.
I also reverse commute, I live in Alexandria, but work in Stafford. I only managed 7200 out of my PZeros. I also had a few trips up to NJ, and one trip to Pittsburgh on them.
And to be honest, I babied those tires. I went with Yokohamas, an All-Season tire. I have to admit, they do not have the performance of the PZeros, but are great in the rian, and light-median snow. They have thin side walls and tend to flex with cornering forces. But the best benefit is the wear, and the fact that I will not be replacing these every six months.
06-01-2011, 09:22 AM
#31
MBWorld Fanatic!
jvanbrecht,
I also reverse commute, I live in Alexandria, but work in Stafford. I only managed 7200 out of my PZeros. I also had a few trips up to NJ, and one trip to Pittsburgh on them.
And to be honest, I babied those tires. I went with Yokohamas, an All-Season tire. I have to admit, they do not have the performance of the PZeros, but are great in the rian, and light-median snow. They have thin side walls and tend to flex with cornering forces. But the best benefit is the wear, and the fact that I will not be replacing these every six months.
I also reverse commute, I live in Alexandria, but work in Stafford. I only managed 7200 out of my PZeros. I also had a few trips up to NJ, and one trip to Pittsburgh on them.
And to be honest, I babied those tires. I went with Yokohamas, an All-Season tire. I have to admit, they do not have the performance of the PZeros, but are great in the rian, and light-median snow. They have thin side walls and tend to flex with cornering forces. But the best benefit is the wear, and the fact that I will not be replacing these every six months.
I got 6K out of my Pzero's. I hear people getting 12K plus out of all season tires (Jon). Jon drives his car hard so hes getting 12K with hard driving.
The "Problem" isnt the car or its configuration. Its the tire and its soft compound along with geography. Northeast cold temps with salty roads cause tire compounds to break down even quicker. That along with a terrible treadwear rating of the Pzero gives us the exact results I would expect out of a extreme performance tire.
06-01-2011, 11:29 AM
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Naples FL
Posts: 2,925
Received 167 Likes
on
133 Posts
2021 Porsche TTS
So Palladin seems to have the answer. Extreme toe in.
This is what I meant by the engineering of the car.
Can anyone confirm that it is only the C that has that characteristic?
This is what I meant by the engineering of the car.
Can anyone confirm that it is only the C that has that characteristic?
06-01-2011, 12:21 PM
#34
MBWorld Fanatic!
Pzeros across most car models with same HP/TQ of the C63 see the same result. 6-8K miles. If the extreme toe in was the problem you would see equal tread life on other brand tires. Simply replacing the Pzero with another brand adds tread life.
I think this is being WAY over thought.
06-01-2011, 03:09 PM
#35
Senior Member
I don't know about you guys but I have tried 3 different brands of tires - Gforce, Hankook V12, and the Pzero and I don't get more then 5500-6500 miles out of them. All on the rear. My front tires have over 14k miles on them and they are fine. Now I understand this car is a rear wheel drive beast, and that I should expect to replace my rear tires more, but 3+ sets to 1 set front is pretty crazy.
In addition to this, after I put even 4000 miles on the tires, they absolutely blow in the rain. All of them. I thought it was just the V12's that had the effect (it seems it is more pronounced on the hankooks) but my tail end will not stay straight when I drive through water when they are worn in like that (I would assume just under 40-50% tread life at that point. I think it has to do with the alignment of the rear wheels.
In addition to this, after I put even 4000 miles on the tires, they absolutely blow in the rain. All of them. I thought it was just the V12's that had the effect (it seems it is more pronounced on the hankooks) but my tail end will not stay straight when I drive through water when they are worn in like that (I would assume just under 40-50% tread life at that point. I think it has to do with the alignment of the rear wheels.
06-01-2011, 03:28 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Naples FL
Posts: 2,925
Received 167 Likes
on
133 Posts
2021 Porsche TTS
You see more tread life because the tires have a higher tread wear. I believe that most people with tread wear of 250 or less get 3K to 7K and with treadwear of around 500, people get about twice. The reason behind the variance is as people stated the driving style of the driver, the road conditions and highway versus city miles.
The other 63 cars do not have that kind of tire life. I know a few people with E63, SL63, SL65, CL63 and they get at least 20K miles and some get 30K.
I still think that Palladin may have the answer. I will go to the dealer and ask them the toe in settings of the other 63 cars.
The other 63 cars do not have that kind of tire life. I know a few people with E63, SL63, SL65, CL63 and they get at least 20K miles and some get 30K.
I still think that Palladin may have the answer. I will go to the dealer and ask them the toe in settings of the other 63 cars.
06-01-2011, 03:35 PM
#37
wow... If your engine could get out of the car and smack you it would.. 
Why buy a performance car and drive it like an old lady? All I do is hard launches. Some burnouts of course leaving the line. No melts. 6K max.
What do you do? Drive in C and shift up to 3rd every time and never get on it? I cant imagine getting 12K out of the Pzero's.
Why buy a performance car and drive it like an old lady? All I do is hard launches. Some burnouts of course leaving the line. No melts. 6K max.
What do you do? Drive in C and shift up to 3rd every time and never get on it? I cant imagine getting 12K out of the Pzero's.
I actually just got 5,000 miles on a set of 1/2 used rear P0's.
I would love to do standing hard launches, but I dont' have an LSD, so it's actually kind of dangerous because the car isn't very predictable when it's starts fishtailing.
And again, because I don't have an LSD, I can't exit corners very hard because the power isn't being put down like I would want. So, I have to stall the power delivery until the car plants a little more.
It's pretty lame actually, but it can all be solved with an LSD, down the road.
06-01-2011, 04:14 PM
#39
Senior Member
I have a LSD, but I can't imagine that being the main issue with the tire wear. I mean I do drive fairly aggressively but I don't attempt to spin the wheels too often. I am more then certain its the toe in the rear. After reading articles and comparing the C63 to other cars it does explain a lot, and makes sense. I know the tires I am using are not meant to last 15k miles, but 6k is way too short of a lifespan for me. I feel like I am constantly shopping for tires since I commute 15K+ miles a year.
I will test out what he said, I will have my shop change the alignment on my rear wheels this weekend. Gonna go ahead and purchase the lifetime alignment plan at the shop that way when I do take it to the track, I can change the toe back and alignment specs back to what is ideal for aggressive driving.
I will test out what he said, I will have my shop change the alignment on my rear wheels this weekend. Gonna go ahead and purchase the lifetime alignment plan at the shop that way when I do take it to the track, I can change the toe back and alignment specs back to what is ideal for aggressive driving.
06-01-2011, 04:38 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Desert
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
I got 6K out of my Pzero's. I hear people getting 12K plus out of all season tires (Jon). Jon drives his car hard so hes getting 12K with hard driving.
The "Problem" isnt the car or its configuration. Its the tire and its soft compound along with geography. Northeast cold temps with salty roads cause tire compounds to break down even quicker. That along with a terrible treadwear rating of the Pzero gives us the exact results I would expect out of a extreme performance tire.
The "Problem" isnt the car or its configuration. Its the tire and its soft compound along with geography. Northeast cold temps with salty roads cause tire compounds to break down even quicker. That along with a terrible treadwear rating of the Pzero gives us the exact results I would expect out of a extreme performance tire.
06-01-2011, 04:41 PM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Desert
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
I know this is going to sound crazy, but I got about 15,000 miles on the original set of rear P0's that came on my car. I got 30,000 miles out of the original front P0's.
I actually just got 5,000 miles on a set of 1/2 used rear P0's.
I would love to do standing hard launches, but I dont' have an LSD, so it's actually kind of dangerous because the car isn't very predictable when it's starts fishtailing.
And again, because I don't have an LSD, I can't exit corners very hard because the power isn't being put down like I would want. So, I have to stall the power delivery until the car plants a little more.
It's pretty lame actually, but it can all be solved with an LSD, down the road.
I actually just got 5,000 miles on a set of 1/2 used rear P0's.
I would love to do standing hard launches, but I dont' have an LSD, so it's actually kind of dangerous because the car isn't very predictable when it's starts fishtailing.
And again, because I don't have an LSD, I can't exit corners very hard because the power isn't being put down like I would want. So, I have to stall the power delivery until the car plants a little more.
It's pretty lame actually, but it can all be solved with an LSD, down the road.
06-01-2011, 04:58 PM
#42
Senior Member
you are talking about tire wear on A/S tires. Those are built to have very high tread wear rating and to last a very long time. I had A/S on my M3 for a year and I did 20k miles on them, they were crappy compared to high performance summer rubber. I have no doubt that AS tires would last 10k+miles but thats still incredibly short for a A/S tire on this car.
06-01-2011, 05:05 PM
#43
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Desert
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
you are talking about tire wear on A/S tires. Those are built to have very high tread wear rating and to last a very long time. I had A/S on my M3 for a year and I did 20k miles on them, they were crappy compared to high performance summer rubber. I have no doubt that AS tires would last 10k+miles but thats still incredibly short for a A/S tire on this car.
06-01-2011, 10:29 PM
#44
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cclass
Pzeros across most car models with same HP/TQ of the C63 see the same result. 6-8K miles. If the extreme toe in was the problem you would see equal tread life on other brand tires. Simply replacing the Pzero with another brand adds tread life.
I think this is being WAY over thought.
I think this is being WAY over thought.
I have the original PZEROs Asyms on my Mustang and they have a 140 treawear. The car makes more hp/trg and I drive it WAY harder. The tires have 4300 miles on them and have over half the tread left. My Cont DW have 1100 miles and they have a 340 treadwear and they have half the tread left.
So this isn't about "treadwear or soft tires".I know people with Maserati's and Panamera's that come with the exact same PZEROs (Although they are 20") and they are getting apprx 10-12k miles on their Rears.
I am telling you this isn't normal for our cars to get such short tread life.
06-01-2011, 10:37 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Sorry but I am not just talking about PZEROs.
I have the original PZEROs Asyms on my Mustang and they have a 140 treawear. The car makes more hp/trg and I drive it WAY harder. The tires have 4300 miles on them and have over half the tread left. My Cont DW have 1100 miles and they have a 340 treadwear and they have half the tread left.
So this isn't about "treadwear or soft tires".I know people with Maserati's and Panamera's that come with the exact same PZEROs (Although they are 20") and they are getting apprx 10-12k miles on their Rears.
I am telling you this isn't normal for our cars to get such short tread life.
I have the original PZEROs Asyms on my Mustang and they have a 140 treawear. The car makes more hp/trg and I drive it WAY harder. The tires have 4300 miles on them and have over half the tread left. My Cont DW have 1100 miles and they have a 340 treadwear and they have half the tread left.
So this isn't about "treadwear or soft tires".I know people with Maserati's and Panamera's that come with the exact same PZEROs (Although they are 20") and they are getting apprx 10-12k miles on their Rears.
I am telling you this isn't normal for our cars to get such short tread life.
The C63 is a fun car but I won't miss this particular issue.
06-01-2011, 11:49 PM
#46
MBWorld Fanatic!
I took some toe-in out on the last alignment...not sure I like it in the corners seems a little more square and less aggressive but haven't had a chance to really test it. I will be dialing more in next time to see the difference.
06-02-2011, 12:06 AM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Alignment issues create tell tale wear patterns, like scuffing and wear bands around tires. I can tell you that all my tire replacements, stock or not have had a pretty even wear at the time of replacement.
I really want some owners who do 80+% mid to high speed freeway driving to chime in please.
06-02-2011, 02:14 AM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
Ok so through my infinite searches it seems most people are getting anywhere from 2 to 5K miles out of their rear tires.
Of course most of you blame the high horsepower and tons of torque. IMO that doesn't make much sense. I have a Mustang with more power and the rear tires last at least 10K with lots of hard launches.
My C has 1200 miles and the rear tires have maybe 4/32s left on the inner edge. I am running 295/25R20 Cont DW. The cars been lowered in the front with HnRs and the rear has the thinnest OEM spring pads. I'm gonna have the alignment checked but regardless the outer edge might have 5 or 6/32s. So lets say it wore evenly across, that means I'd get maybe 2500 to 3000 miles on them. I drive the stang way harder than the C so what gives?
The high power theory just doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of cars out there with similar or more power but I'll bet you they get way more than 5K out of the rears.
So is it alignment, suspension geometry, or whatelse?
This thread isn't to complain about our crappy tire wear. I really want to see what some of you might think it is besides power.
Thanks!
Of course most of you blame the high horsepower and tons of torque. IMO that doesn't make much sense. I have a Mustang with more power and the rear tires last at least 10K with lots of hard launches.
My C has 1200 miles and the rear tires have maybe 4/32s left on the inner edge. I am running 295/25R20 Cont DW. The cars been lowered in the front with HnRs and the rear has the thinnest OEM spring pads. I'm gonna have the alignment checked but regardless the outer edge might have 5 or 6/32s. So lets say it wore evenly across, that means I'd get maybe 2500 to 3000 miles on them. I drive the stang way harder than the C so what gives?
The high power theory just doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of cars out there with similar or more power but I'll bet you they get way more than 5K out of the rears.
So is it alignment, suspension geometry, or whatelse?
This thread isn't to complain about our crappy tire wear. I really want to see what some of you might think it is besides power.
Thanks!
06-02-2011, 02:29 AM
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
Sorry but I am not just talking about PZEROs.
I have the original PZEROs Asyms on my Mustang and they have a 140 treawear. The car makes more hp/trg and I drive it WAY harder. The tires have 4300 miles on them and have over half the tread left. My Cont DW have 1100 miles and they have a 340 treadwear and they have half the tread left.
So this isn't about "treadwear or soft tires".I know people with Maserati's and Panamera's that come with the exact same PZEROs (Although they are 20") and they are getting apprx 10-12k miles on their Rears.
I am telling you this isn't normal for our cars to get such short tread life.
I have the original PZEROs Asyms on my Mustang and they have a 140 treawear. The car makes more hp/trg and I drive it WAY harder. The tires have 4300 miles on them and have over half the tread left. My Cont DW have 1100 miles and they have a 340 treadwear and they have half the tread left.
So this isn't about "treadwear or soft tires".I know people with Maserati's and Panamera's that come with the exact same PZEROs (Although they are 20") and they are getting apprx 10-12k miles on their Rears.
I am telling you this isn't normal for our cars to get such short tread life.
I'm guessing you also have a live rear axel under the Stang. When you step on it the entire axel moves up under the car, but the tire alignment stays relatively consistant. When you step on an IRS the wheels arch upward and inward creating more negative camber and hence more wear on the inside edge.
It is normal for a C63 to get poor rear tire wear due to;
1.IRS wear inner edges faster on any car.
2.Suspension geometry set up for rear tires that are too narrow.
(Hello MBZ punch out the rear wells and get some 305/315 on the back of this beast).
3.Lots of TQ from a dead stop that you don't even notice that partially spin very expensive grippy tires every time you take off even without punching it.
06-02-2011, 07:34 AM
#50
Super Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Delran, NJ
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
05 C55
Bingo. You can help offset this with a set of adjustable camber arms. If you stand behind your car, you can see it leaning on the inner edges of the tires. Ever notice the negative camber on a late 70s Vette? The geometry of the IRS requires negative camber in order to maintain a flat contact patch when its in the turns. My driving is 90% straight line highway, and I was burning the inner edges of the tires constantly, regardless of manufacturer. I installed a set of adjustable arms, drove it to the alignment place, and explained what I wanted. They aligned it to factory spec, added positive camber, and that was it. The inner edges no longer burn out, and tires wear evenly. While this setup works well for me and the style driving that I do, its not necessarily the best setup for someone that will road race their car. If MB set the car up for ultimate tire wear, people would ***** that it was loose in the corners and had horrible lap times...so they go with a middle of the road setting. Some people will get normal tire wear, some people will not. This is just in addition to the obvious other factors (driving style, road surface, tire compound etc.).
