OE Tuning/Gintani C63 vs MBH/ASCG C63
07-19-2011, 11:33 PM
#26
Former Vendor of MBWorld
In regards to Re-flash from the dealer. A lot of dealers don't necessarily re-flash the car. What they do is update the car in certain areas that they made the update for. Much like updates that come from Windows for your home PC. It doesn't uninstall your whole operating system it just changes the area that the update is for.
In this case, the dealer could have added an update to a section of programming that changes the values of how the car reads fuel, timing and things like that. In turn it would have written over the section of the tune where the power is made, but not necessarily any place else. By doing this It does not mean they up loaded a complete software program that would wipe out the code that turns on/off the "Check Engine Light".
In turn the update most likely did not alter the section of code that controls the rear o2 sensors. As that was probably not where the updated was meant for.
In a nutshell, you would loose your tune section of the ECU, but not other areas. Since the update was not meant to change anything else.
In this case, the dealer could have added an update to a section of programming that changes the values of how the car reads fuel, timing and things like that. In turn it would have written over the section of the tune where the power is made, but not necessarily any place else. By doing this It does not mean they up loaded a complete software program that would wipe out the code that turns on/off the "Check Engine Light".
In turn the update most likely did not alter the section of code that controls the rear o2 sensors. As that was probably not where the updated was meant for.
In a nutshell, you would loose your tune section of the ECU, but not other areas. Since the update was not meant to change anything else.
07-19-2011, 11:40 PM
#27
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C63, C300, 911TT x 3, 911 C2 x 2, 911SC, SL65, SL500, 280SL Plus some trucks
I wonder how many dealer mechanics lift a car, walk under it, see the mods and think, "I should find a reason to flash the car just to mess with him."
Jim
Jim
07-19-2011, 11:57 PM
#28
Former Vendor of MBWorld
If it says somewhere someplace to update the ECU. Thats what they do. Unless you tell them otherwise.
07-20-2011, 12:28 AM
#29
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In regards to Re-flash from the dealer. A lot of dealers don't necessarily re-flash the car. What they do is update the car in certain areas that they made the update for. Much like updates that come from Windows for your home PC. It doesn't uninstall your whole operating system it just changes the area that the update is for.
In this case, the dealer could have added an update to a section of programming that changes the values of how the car reads fuel, timing and things like that. In turn it would have written over the section of the tune where the power is made, but not necessarily any place else. By doing this It does not mean they up loaded a complete software program that would wipe out the code that turns on/off the "Check Engine Light".
In turn the update most likely did not alter the section of code that controls the rear o2 sensors. As that was probably not where the updated was meant for.
In a nutshell, you would loose your tune section of the ECU, but not other areas. Since the update was not meant to change anything else.
In this case, the dealer could have added an update to a section of programming that changes the values of how the car reads fuel, timing and things like that. In turn it would have written over the section of the tune where the power is made, but not necessarily any place else. By doing this It does not mean they up loaded a complete software program that would wipe out the code that turns on/off the "Check Engine Light".
In turn the update most likely did not alter the section of code that controls the rear o2 sensors. As that was probably not where the updated was meant for.
In a nutshell, you would loose your tune section of the ECU, but not other areas. Since the update was not meant to change anything else.
This is exactly what James found after reading my ECU last week. While much of the tuned adjusted parameters were still intact, certain other sections had been changed, including the area that tells the ECU how to interpret it's own map parameters. That explains why the car wasn't throwing codes despite my catless setup.
James also took the time to datalog my car last week and verified that it wasn't running the full timing the loaded map called for (pulling 5 degrees), despite exhibiting no knock. Just more evidence supporting Mike's thinking above.
Regardless, I'm confident James will have my car back up and running strong tomorrow afternoon. I should also mention that James has already gone well beyond my expectations in terms of diagnosing my problem and rectifying the issue.
Last edited by xtyper; 07-20-2011 at 12:42 AM.
07-20-2011, 12:39 AM
#30
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Looking forward to meeting you and seeing your new beast!
07-20-2011, 12:50 AM
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I'll probably be down there around 10:00. I just remembered I have to go by one of my places and tell the office furniture people how to set up the cubical farms.
Jim
Jim
07-20-2011, 12:57 AM
#32
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Xtyper did you use M-mode, I know jeremy does so thats why he may get the jump off the line....I did 1 or 2 half *** runs with him a couple months back I think he hit the limiter couple times so I knew he was in M-mode
07-20-2011, 01:02 AM
#33
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No, I was simply using S mode compared to his M mode. But doubt that made much of a difference.
07-20-2011, 01:04 AM
#34
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How did you do against him and what mods do you have?
07-20-2011, 01:08 AM
#35
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it was a half *** 10mph rolling run and I don't think either of us were going to go but just for fun went for it. i think he bounced off 1 or 2 gears but hard to remember i wa in S as well ...ended even
07-20-2011, 04:08 AM
#36
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everything
When we have programmed the ME9.7 on our development car with our STAR tool, it always updates the entire calibration, and never simply a patch
When the old code was compared against the later code that contains the factory updates it was only about 10-20 bytes changed
It is VERY unlikely that the STAR tool has updated parts of the calibration that would have an effect on performance
In any event, this would be known immediately the two calibrations were compared, as the SCN and the calibration ID must change under US law and are easily identified.
Sorry for the interruption, it is not our intention to become involved in the relative differences between the competing products
But simply to say, "I find that hard to believe" in relation to the STAR tool performing partial reflashes to the calibration space.
Of course, partial reflashes is more common than not with aftermarket OBD2 tuning because the tools that we all use to flash allow the capability to flash simply the bytes that need changing.
If a video can be posted of a STAR tool performing a partial flash on an ME9.7 then I am happy to retract the statement and stand corrected.
When the old code was compared against the later code that contains the factory updates it was only about 10-20 bytes changed
It is VERY unlikely that the STAR tool has updated parts of the calibration that would have an effect on performance
In any event, this would be known immediately the two calibrations were compared, as the SCN and the calibration ID must change under US law and are easily identified.
Sorry for the interruption, it is not our intention to become involved in the relative differences between the competing products
But simply to say, "I find that hard to believe" in relation to the STAR tool performing partial reflashes to the calibration space.
Of course, partial reflashes is more common than not with aftermarket OBD2 tuning because the tools that we all use to flash allow the capability to flash simply the bytes that need changing.
If a video can be posted of a STAR tool performing a partial flash on an ME9.7 then I am happy to retract the statement and stand corrected.
07-20-2011, 07:51 AM
#37
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xtyper, once ACGSD has verified your tune is correct... are you two going to rerun them?
From the vids, it sure looks like the OE car has a meaningful torque advantage... will be interesting to see if that's still the case after a reflash.
From the vids, it sure looks like the OE car has a meaningful torque advantage... will be interesting to see if that's still the case after a reflash.
07-20-2011, 09:21 AM
#38
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Partial tune reflash? 
I think what we saw in the video is exactly what we will see again. Your talking about a car that has the cats installed vs a car with a full race exhaust with no cats. The results in the video were not odd to me now that I know those facts.
What I dont know is how the ASCG tune compares to OE's tune. I do know OE has a very aggressive tune. I know of only one other company that matches its performance.
I guess we will find out, but my money is Jeremy's car walks him again unless he removes those cats.
I think what we saw in the video is exactly what we will see again. Your talking about a car that has the cats installed vs a car with a full race exhaust with no cats. The results in the video were not odd to me now that I know those facts.
What I dont know is how the ASCG tune compares to OE's tune. I do know OE has a very aggressive tune. I know of only one other company that matches its performance.
I guess we will find out, but my money is Jeremy's car walks him again unless he removes those cats.
07-20-2011, 09:35 AM
#39
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Propain - just because you and jsp (who admitted not knowing about xtyper's mods) speculated about cats, doesn't certify that he has them. In fact, the opposite appears to be true:
Just FWIW.
BINGO!!!
This is exactly what James found after reading my ECU last week. While much of the tuned adjusted parameters were still intact, certain other sections had been changed, including the area that tells the ECU how to interpret it's own map parameters. That explains why the car wasn't throwing codes despite my catless setup.
This is exactly what James found after reading my ECU last week. While much of the tuned adjusted parameters were still intact, certain other sections had been changed, including the area that tells the ECU how to interpret it's own map parameters. That explains why the car wasn't throwing codes despite my catless setup.
07-20-2011, 09:36 AM
#40
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C63, C300, 911TT x 3, 911 C2 x 2, 911SC, SL65, SL500, 280SL Plus some trucks
07-20-2011, 09:40 AM
#41
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I go back to my original statement then. His car would run TERRIBLE if the dealer flashed him back to stock.
All seems strange to me.. partial reflash as powerchip stated sounds odd.. I guess well see. Enough speculation I guess.
07-20-2011, 09:43 AM
#42
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Before and after dynos would straighten out the tuning question.
A full dealer flash would absolutely generate codes from the missing cats unless O2 eliminators were installed instead of ignored in code.
I apologize for thinking out loud and confusing the discussion.
Jim
A full dealer flash would absolutely generate codes from the missing cats unless O2 eliminators were installed instead of ignored in code.
I apologize for thinking out loud and confusing the discussion.
Jim
Last edited by jspAMG; 07-20-2011 at 09:46 AM.
07-20-2011, 09:45 AM
#43
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07-20-2011, 09:58 AM
#44
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07-20-2011, 09:59 AM
#45
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OE Tuning C63 AMG
Thanks guys. Many runs were made, with the same results. The runs were any car got an unfair jump were not included. Each run was fair and from an even go. xtyper will agree with me on this. I have no plans to rematch unless considerable or different mods are done. FYI, there is no such thing as a partial reflash from the dealer, so I will not be entertaining that notion. Other fully modded C63s have also seen the same outcome.
OE Tuning FTW!
OE Tuning FTW!
07-20-2011, 10:01 AM
#46
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Thanks guys. Many runs were made, with the same results. The runs were any car got an unfair jump were not included. Each run was fair and from an even go. xtyper will agree with me on this. I have no plans to rematch unless considerable or different mods are done. FYI, there is no such thing as a partial reflash from the dealer, so I will not be entertaining that notion. Other fully modded C63s have also seen the same outcome.
OE Tuning FTW!
OE Tuning FTW!
For the record Jeremy were you running a full interior for this compare?
07-20-2011, 10:09 AM
#48
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I looks forward to seeing it go down the 1/4 in the fall on some DR's!
OE!
07-20-2011, 10:19 AM
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Sorry.. I thought jsp knew him and his car personally. He seemed like he did.
I think that after a while I get some cars confused. xtyper, pertplus, other cars at ACG and cars my own customers tell me about can get muddled together because I'm not taking notes.
Plus on top of that, I'm trying to integrate what other people are doing into my own plans for my car. One of the big open issues is the exact configuration of the exhaust. I would like to have test pipes to install but I also have to be able to install cats to get through smog and I have to have a version of software that can be loaded that support those cats.
Just as an aside, if I was a tuner, I would be much more circumspect on public forums about coding to eliminate cats and as tuning shops I wouldn't be talking about doing that very much. I consider CARB to be one step down from Hitler. I really wouldn't want to cross the smog *****. The ticket for the end user who removes cats is $2750.00 if I remember correctly. Knowing them, its probably higher and I can't imagine what it would do to commercial enterprises caught doing the work and coding.
Jim
