Power Gain -Reduced Crankcase Pressure
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'09 C63 Performance Package - Steel Grey/Sahara Biege
Power Gain -Reduced Crankcase Pressure
Per the Road & Track Review of the C63 Black: (Thanks for posting)
Compared to the 510hp of the Black Series..."A standard C63, for the record, puts out 451 bhp at 6500 rpm and 443 lb.-ft, of torque at 5000. While that’s quite a gain in power for the Black Series V-8, which has the same compression ratio, heads and camshafts, the folks at AMG say reduced gas pressure within the crankcase plays a significant role."
Any motorheads out there that can elaborate here? Seems like something JCart, Dads or Andy would be very interested in.
Would be great if it means just adding a PCV valve or something (?)
Compared to the 510hp of the Black Series..."A standard C63, for the record, puts out 451 bhp at 6500 rpm and 443 lb.-ft, of torque at 5000. While that’s quite a gain in power for the Black Series V-8, which has the same compression ratio, heads and camshafts, the folks at AMG say reduced gas pressure within the crankcase plays a significant role."
Any motorheads out there that can elaborate here? Seems like something JCart, Dads or Andy would be very interested in.
Would be great if it means just adding a PCV valve or something (?)
#2
I noticed that too. The way I look at it, is the extra power (compared to a regular C63) not attributable to the TB's opening up more and a slightly revised exhaust system?
Seems kind of awekward that on this version of the M156, AMG found some extra ponies by reducing gas pressure in the crankcase. To me, it's all marketing. I believe it's just a regular old M156 like you would find in the E, CLS, etc.
Seems kind of awekward that on this version of the M156, AMG found some extra ponies by reducing gas pressure in the crankcase. To me, it's all marketing. I believe it's just a regular old M156 like you would find in the E, CLS, etc.
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2013 Chevy 427 Torch Red
MB just won't admit that the M156 makes 510 in it's default setting and the C63 is an example of intentionally holding back thru the ECU. Now that the other models have moved on to TT, MB is suddenly concerned about offending the C class crowd when they weren't before.
#4
Well said.
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'09 C63 Performance Package - Steel Grey/Sahara Biege
Just did some "googling" and found the following info on a VW forum. The argument from the poster seems interesting considering our unique oil smoke nuance with our 63's; which I presume is due to loose clearances for our piston rings (?).
"Pulling a vacuum on a sealed crankcase is good for a tried and true 5% horsepower gain (on a VW TDI). The horsepower gain is due to the crankcase vacuum pulling oil off of the rings, allowing them to seal better. Drag racers run weaker (looser) piston rings since they too seal better than tighter rings.
The lower the crankcase pressure, the less the engine will have to pump air out of the engine and there will be less pressure on the bottoms of the pistons reducing the amount of pumping the engine has to do. Also, a vacuum on the crankcase will keep the seals more oil tight since the vacuum pulls the oil into the engine instead of pumping it out."
Maybe the engineers at AMG were being honest with R&T and figured this out???
"Pulling a vacuum on a sealed crankcase is good for a tried and true 5% horsepower gain (on a VW TDI). The horsepower gain is due to the crankcase vacuum pulling oil off of the rings, allowing them to seal better. Drag racers run weaker (looser) piston rings since they too seal better than tighter rings.
The lower the crankcase pressure, the less the engine will have to pump air out of the engine and there will be less pressure on the bottoms of the pistons reducing the amount of pumping the engine has to do. Also, a vacuum on the crankcase will keep the seals more oil tight since the vacuum pulls the oil into the engine instead of pumping it out."
Maybe the engineers at AMG were being honest with R&T and figured this out???
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You do realize that this same motor has been making 500+ HP in every other model other than the C63 for six years. Why do you think ECU tunes are so effective for this car? It has nothing to do with crankcase pressure, MB did not just find a way to get the M156 to make more power, they simply chose not to withhold it.
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You do realize that this same motor has been making 500+ HP in every other model other than the C63 for six years. Why do you think ECU tunes are so effective for this car? It has nothing to do with crankcase pressure, MB did not just find a way to get the M156 to make more power, they simply chose not to withhold it.
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'09 C63 Performance Package - Steel Grey/Sahara Biege
You do realize that this same motor has been making 500+ HP in every other model other than the C63 for six years. Why do you think ECU tunes are so effective for this car? It has nothing to do with crankcase pressure, MB did not just find a way to get the M156 to make more power, they simply chose not to withhold it.
We certainly can all choose to ignore it and believe that all three unrelated parties have plotted something and attribute all gains to the tune. I'm not a big conspiracy theory guy and thought as fellow enthusiasts we would want to look into the information being presented.
#9
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You do realize that this same motor has been making 500+ HP in every other model other than the C63 for six years. Why do you think ECU tunes are so effective for this car? It has nothing to do with crankcase pressure, MB did not just find a way to get the M156 to make more power, they simply chose not to withhold it.
Rated 429 bhp in the Cl and 402bhp in the CLS550 and E550. A simple tune puts these engines over 440 bhp/508 tq.
http://www.youtube.com/user/OEtuning...12/TUQxtSnGD_o
Brabus takes it even higher (500 bhp/531 tq) by adding an additional intercooler.
On subject: I've read about the crankshaft pressure and some manufacturers (Mercedes) are now "porting" (drill Pulsation holes in the main bearing webs) the inside of the crankcase to relieve pressure.
Last edited by Dueclaws; 11-17-2011 at 07:04 PM.
#10
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Look at this site: http://www.marcusfitzhugh.com/CLK/M278.html
Go down to the description of the new 5.5 AMG engine where the Pulsation holes are discussed.
Go down to the description of the new 5.5 AMG engine where the Pulsation holes are discussed.
Last edited by Dueclaws; 11-17-2011 at 11:08 AM.
#11
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Just did some "googling" and found the following info on a VW forum. The argument from the poster seems interesting considering our unique oil smoke nuance with our 63's; which I presume is due to loose clearances for our piston rings (?).
"Pulling a vacuum on a sealed crankcase is good for a tried and true 5% horsepower gain (on a VW TDI). The horsepower gain is due to the crankcase vacuum pulling oil off of the rings, allowing them to seal better. Drag racers run weaker (looser) piston rings since they too seal better than tighter rings.
The lower the crankcase pressure, the less the engine will have to pump air out of the engine and there will be less pressure on the bottoms of the pistons reducing the amount of pumping the engine has to do. Also, a vacuum on the crankcase will keep the seals more oil tight since the vacuum pulls the oil into the engine instead of pumping it out."
Maybe the engineers at AMG were being honest with R&T and figured this out???
"Pulling a vacuum on a sealed crankcase is good for a tried and true 5% horsepower gain (on a VW TDI). The horsepower gain is due to the crankcase vacuum pulling oil off of the rings, allowing them to seal better. Drag racers run weaker (looser) piston rings since they too seal better than tighter rings.
The lower the crankcase pressure, the less the engine will have to pump air out of the engine and there will be less pressure on the bottoms of the pistons reducing the amount of pumping the engine has to do. Also, a vacuum on the crankcase will keep the seals more oil tight since the vacuum pulls the oil into the engine instead of pumping it out."
Maybe the engineers at AMG were being honest with R&T and figured this out???
Drag racers use a crankcase evac system connected to their headers. It is good for about 10-15 hp. Moroso sells a universal kit for it.
It will NOT work on modern cars, as it replaces the PVC system, and requires it to be the ONLY system on the engine as it creates a slight vacuum in the valve covers to draw out ANY blow by.
I would REALLY doubt, that this is were the AMG engineers picked up 50 hp
#12
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You do realize that this same motor has been making 500+ HP in every other model other than the C63 for six years. Why do you think ECU tunes are so effective for this car? It has nothing to do with crankcase pressure, MB did not just find a way to get the M156 to make more power, they simply chose not to withhold it.
So if the P31 is just a regular M156 without a 'de-tune' (not sure what the "forged internals" adds) what is in the motor in the BS that makes it a worthy upgrade over a PP car?
Would really love to see a breakdown of what goes into the motors of the AMGs to go from C63->C63pp ->E63 / S63-SL 63 -> C63 BS -> SLS
#13
This is what people have been saying about the P31... that it was just the same motor in the E or SL but given a lower number on paper so as not to offed those that bought the bigger cars. None of the tuners can add anything to a P31 tune and it pulls as hard as a tuned standard C63.
So if the P31 is just a regular M156 without a 'de-tune' (not sure what the "forged internals" adds) what is in the motor in the BS that makes it a worthy upgrade over a PP car?
Would really love to see a breakdown of what goes into the motors of the AMGs to go from C63->C63pp ->E63 / S63-SL 63 -> C63 BS -> SLS
So if the P31 is just a regular M156 without a 'de-tune' (not sure what the "forged internals" adds) what is in the motor in the BS that makes it a worthy upgrade over a PP car?
Would really love to see a breakdown of what goes into the motors of the AMGs to go from C63->C63pp ->E63 / S63-SL 63 -> C63 BS -> SLS
C63 P31 = regular M156 with forged internals from SLS
E63 = regular M156 + larger diamater exhaust (more power)
C63 BS = regular M156 + a unique catback (probably a resonator delete)
SLS (M159) = M156 + forged internals + revised cams + revised intake manifold + better heads + different exhaust
#14
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C63 = neutered TB openining
C63 P31 = regular M156 with forged internals from SLS
E63 = regular M156 + larger diamater exhaust (more power)
C63 BS = regular M156 + a unique catback (probably a resonator delete)
SLS (M159) = M156 + forged internals + revised cams + revised intake manifold + better heads + different exhaust
C63 P31 = regular M156 with forged internals from SLS
E63 = regular M156 + larger diamater exhaust (more power)
C63 BS = regular M156 + a unique catback (probably a resonator delete)
SLS (M159) = M156 + forged internals + revised cams + revised intake manifold + better heads + different exhaust
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2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
C63 = neutered TB openining
C63 P31 = regular M156 with forged internals from SLS
E63 = regular M156 + larger diamater exhaust (more power)
C63 BS = regular M156 + a unique catback (probably a resonator delete)
SLS (M159) = M156 + forged internals + revised cams + revised intake manifold + better heads + different exhaust + dry sump oiling system
C63 P31 = regular M156 with forged internals from SLS
E63 = regular M156 + larger diamater exhaust (more power)
C63 BS = regular M156 + a unique catback (probably a resonator delete)
SLS (M159) = M156 + forged internals + revised cams + revised intake manifold + better heads + different exhaust + dry sump oiling system
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'09 SL Black, '12 ML63, '13 SL63, '14 E63 Wagon, '14 458 Italia
I believe MBZ has done the same thing (withhold) with the new biturbo M278 engine.
Rated 429 bhp in the Cl and 402bhp in the CLS and E550. A simple tune puts these engines over 440 bhp/508 tq.
http://www.youtube.com/user/OEtuning...12/TUQxtSnGD_o
Brabus takes it even higher (500 bhp/531 tq) by adding an additional intercooler.
On subject: I've read about the crankshaft pressure and some manufacturers (Mercedes) are now "porting" (drill Pulsation holes in the main bearing webs) the inside of the crankcase to relieve pressure.
Rated 429 bhp in the Cl and 402bhp in the CLS and E550. A simple tune puts these engines over 440 bhp/508 tq.
http://www.youtube.com/user/OEtuning...12/TUQxtSnGD_o
Brabus takes it even higher (500 bhp/531 tq) by adding an additional intercooler.
On subject: I've read about the crankshaft pressure and some manufacturers (Mercedes) are now "porting" (drill Pulsation holes in the main bearing webs) the inside of the crankcase to relieve pressure.
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'09 C63 Performance Package - Steel Grey/Sahara Biege
Back to the original point made by AMG and Road and Track, if there is an easy way to measure it, it would be interesting to see if there's a difference in crankcase pressure between the BS and the standard 63.
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Here's a new one from the inside line article.
http://www.insideline.com/mercedes-b...ck-series.html
Am I reading it right that there's MORE crankcase pressure to create more hp?
Additionally, the Black Series engine block omits the base C63's internal sump vents between adjacent crankshaft bearings. This transforms the bottom end into a series of isolated V2 compartments meant to capture the pressure buildup beneath each plummeting piston to help push it up again for additional torque. The trade-off is a lumpier idle, but we're OK with that.
Am I reading it right that there's MORE crankcase pressure to create more hp?
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More importantly than ANY of this dribble, did you catch this statement:
"From there, the path to 510 horses and 457 pound-feet of torque involves a stop at the SLS AMG parts bin, where forged pistons, forged rods and a lighter forged crank amount to a 9-pound loss of reciprocating engine mass. "
9 Pounds loss of reciprocating mass, and they really did not gain much over a base C63 with a tune.
So much for the lighter balancer of a few ounces
I know, she will rev alot faster with that balancer
"From there, the path to 510 horses and 457 pound-feet of torque involves a stop at the SLS AMG parts bin, where forged pistons, forged rods and a lighter forged crank amount to a 9-pound loss of reciprocating engine mass. "
9 Pounds loss of reciprocating mass, and they really did not gain much over a base C63 with a tune.
So much for the lighter balancer of a few ounces
I know, she will rev alot faster with that balancer