Pit-Pony

I phoned the 800-268-3183 number on the back of the bottle.
Imperial Oil in Canada, represents Mobil.

I was told that this particular product "Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40 (not the ESP version) is blocked and is exclusive to Mercedes dealers and can not be purchased from any other source.

Mystery solved. We have a sole source (in Canada anyway).

1Lop2K5C

There is nothing wrong with using ESP Formula M and Formula M 5W40. I already got feed back from the AMG PL staff. It designed for both gas and diesel.

220S

I seriously doubt that the "AMG PL staff" ever told you that ESP is recommended for the M156. They are recommending the Formula M 5W 40, not the ESP Formula 5W 40. Ask your service manager at your dealership and they will tell you the same thing. They have the most recent bulletins from MBUSA. They are using Formula M 5W 40 and ESP 5W 40 (for the diesels) in the overheads.

ESP is "emissions system protection" oil. It has reduced zinc and phosphorus so that there's less potential to kill the cats. Zinc and phosphorus can destroy catalytic convertors but at the same time they make up the ZDDP additive that promotes the thin coating of metal to metal parts. ZDDP is an anti-wear additive. ESP also has a reduced ash content specifically for diesel motors.

It may be fine to use ESP in gasoline motors with roller tappets but not in the M156 with the flat tappets. You need all the help you can get (especially in cold starts after the car has been sitting for a few days since the oil can bleed from the lifters and the cam lobes.) That's partly why the phosphorus content is particularly important. The Formula M 5W 40 is what you should be using. But it is exclusive to Mercedes dealerships and isn't a general retail product. You're much better off using the 0W 40 (with its high ppm of phosphorus and zinc) than using the ESP if you can't get the Formula M.

Just because ESP is a 229.51 oil doesn't necessarily mean the M156 is included. If you read BEVO you'll see that there are always specific exceptions to the 229.5 and 229.51 specifications.

Clearly, ESP won't necessarily kill your motor especially if you do OCIs more often then the 10k schedules. But it definitely has reduced phosphorus (and zinc) and is really not a good idea to use in a flat tappet designed motor. And if you're using ESP as an add oil when needed, it's no big deal (although you should use the 0W 40 instead.) But why would you use it as your primary fill oil?


Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 - Emission System Protection
Low Ash Content. Helps to reduce particulate build up in Diesel Particulate Filters. Low Sulphur and Phosphorous content. Helps to reduce poisoning of Gasoline Catalytic Converters. Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of high performance components formulated to be fully compatible with the latest Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF's) and Gasoline Catalytic Converters.

Pit-Pony

After my own research I whole heatedly agree for exclusively using tthe Formula M 5w-40 available from MB dealers. It's priced under $11.

I carry a couple of extra bottles with the spare tire in case a slight top up is needed.

Why would you chance using anything else with this engine?

bhamg

I've seen VOA's on the 0w-40 and ESP M1's. IIRC the difference in zinc and phosphorous content might have been in the range of 25%. It was suggested however that the ESP base stock was of particularly high quality (for Mobil), presumably a PAO and ester blend. I use ESP with a 6k OCI but will switch to another oil when my ESP stash is exhausted.

andrew c230k

Everything this gent said is 100% true... some people don't realize there is actually two different mobil 1 5W40 Formula M's one is normal and the other is ESP since I have both gas and diesel Mercedes I found this out quickly.

Jasonoff

You may have been talking to someone new because this is incorrect.

Mobil Canada
1-800-387-3690 --> 1-english --> 3-technical board or 0-Customer service

Product
==========================
Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...a_M_5W-40.aspx

Matrial Code: 599602
6 - 1L bottles per case.

There are a few distributors in Ontario (Mississauga, Georgetown, etc...)

I live in Waterloo so the closest to me is Georgetown. They did not have the material code in their system so they had to add it after talking to me.

Distribution (Georgetown location)
==========================
Chalmers Fuels
http://www.chalmersfuels.ca/

79 Mountarin view road north, Georgetown.

Contact: Edna
Number: 905-877-5261

I was quoted $56.64/Case + HST

Pit-Pony

I phoned.

Looks like there is a Mobil 1 dealer in Nova Scotia:

Blue Water Agencies, Dartmouth , Nova Scotia
902-468-4900

http://www.bluewateragencies.ca/locations.html

They don't have this product code (599602) in their system but they will look into it.

Next issue is actually buying from them as they only sell wholesale no retail.

220S

Good luck. And keep us posted.

I called Mobil (in the US) today.
1-800-ASK MOBIL (275-6624)

The guy who I spoke with was very knowledgeable about oils and AMG and the Daimler 229.5/51 specs. He didn't even have to look anything up, he knew everything off the top of his head.

The Formula M 5W-40 is NOT available as a retail product in the USA. The ESP version has reduced ZDDP to protect emissions systems. The Formula M 5W-40 that AMG recommends for the M156 motor is only sold through Mercedes dealerships.

He said that both the 0W-40 and the Formula M 5W-40 have more ZDDP than the ESP and it's ideal for the flat tappet design of the M156 (read about engine building and flat tappets and ZDDP.) We talked a bit about flat tappets. AMG is recommending the 5W because of the bleed out from the tappets and the cam lobes after the car sits overnight (and longer.) Possible damage of the cam lobes is a concern. With a cold start, that little bit of extra viscosity is what they are looking at. And it can allow for less bleed while sitting over time.

He said the ESP is not the oil to use and it's designed for diesels and specifically has a low ash content. And it's design to protect emissions systems (the manufacturers have a bigger liability because of the extended emissions warranty.) Therefore it has less protective additives (and okay on roller tappet motors.)

Use the Formula M 5W-40 or the 0W-40, but the ESP is not the correct 5W-40 oil......

p.s., I no longer own my AMG but Porsche recommends 0W-40 because of the ZDDP content (there's no issues about viscosity and cam lobe wear with these motors.)

Jasonoff

I'm sure there are local distributes in the US you could get it through like here in Canada.

Something available in Canada and NOT in the US would be a first!

220S

I don't think poutine is available in the US.

gthal

Or real Donairs... well, they are hard to find west of New Brunswick in Canada too... the REAL ones that is

Pit-Pony

Keep in mind that the 5W-40 is always available from the dealer over the counter for extra oil changes.

From what I can see it's about $2 more per liter from the dealer than the price quoted by the Ontario distributor.

Not the end of the world spending an extra $20 per change if it's easier.

andrew c230k

If your in Waterloo you should try monarch oil on Victoria street... if you haven't already. I'm in Kitchener

220S

I may be proven wrong, but I suspect that it's not going to be available retail in Canada, either. That vendor in Ottawa doesn't list it on their website. And you may very well find that the vendor in NS is wholesale only. In addition, I'm guessing that it won't be available to just anybody even if purchased wholesale. Although one thing different in Canada is that the majority of dealerships are directly owned by Mercedes. In the US, they are independently owned (except for Mercedes of Manhattan in NYC which is owned/operated by MBUSA.)

When companies like Mobil 1 make these sorts of contracts with auto manufacturers, it's pretty tight and they aren't going to jeopardize it by allowing the product to be sold outside of the dealership in any form. There's a reason why it's limited to authorized dealerships only, and it all comes down to the control of distribution: aka money.

But like you said, it's really not that big of an issue paying the extra and conveniently getting it from the dealership.

Jasonoff

Thanks for the tip

Mort

If Bluewater can get the oil then just arrange to pick it up from one of their wholesale customers. That is how I arranged to get the Total Oil that I have from a local shop.

bhamg

Not an oil argument here...TETO. That said, I searched VOA's again a while ago. The first VOA of M1 0w-40 that showed up in search had 10% LESS ZDDP than the VOA on the ESP 5w-40 formula. I had looked at all of the 0w-40 VOA's and all of the ESP UOA's (diesel and gas) I could find when deciding whether to stick with the ESP, as long as both of my dealers were still using it. But yes, the differences in ZDDP content were much smaller than I expected to see.

I was concerned about the ZDDP issue. The M1 0w-40 formulation seems to have changed a few times over the years and VOA's are showing pretty different results. What I saw was enough to convince me that as long as my dealer was still using ESP for .50 spec changes I would stick with it as in "in-between" oil change. I know some of the concern about the ESP was related to the lower TBN starting out, and whether that was sufficient for the extended service intervals. Also, Weistec says to use a 5w-40 and not the 0w-40 as they believe it may be contributing to premature valve train wear IIRC.

bhamg

I want to try that place in Montreal that fries potatoes in duck fat, uses a duck gravy on the poutine and then throws a slab of foie gras on top.

220S

According to the 10/2011 product data sheet from ExxonMobil, the VOA numbers (or actually their TBN measurements) for 5W-40 Formula M ESP is 800 ppm of phosphorus and 900 ppm of zinc. 0W-40 Mobil 1 is 1000 ppm of phosphorus and 1100 ppm of zinc. (I attached the .pdf file below.) My UOAs always have shown still fairly high amounts of ZDDP after 5k miles on the oil. I never had the lab do a VOA on the actual oil I was using, but the TBN and my UOA numbers were close to what would be expected at that mileage. And I have never used ESP so I really can't compare.

Weistec says 5W-40 for the reasons I stated above. But they are talking about the Formula M 5W-40 and not the Formula M ESP 5W-40.

Pit-Pony

I'll let you know if I can buy it by the case from the local distributor in Nova Scotia Canada. Just so we know even though the savings are not that important.

I did speak to the distributor in Ontario who had no qualms selling it to me by the case. My shipping costs though, would far outweigh the savings compared to the dealer pricing.

Green E-300 DT

Although some of what he told you 'off the top of his head' may indeed be true, one thing he said is incorrect:

I have multiple one quart containers of Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 in my garage
that was purchased at a couple of places during the last year and one half.

Some of it came from the Pep Boys chain, and some came from the local MBZ dealer.
Got some of that oil from Pep Boys when they had a sale where all Mobil 1 was on sale for $3.99.
Two stores would not honor that price because they said that the more expensive oil was not
included in the sale. When I pointed out that their ad said All,
one manager caved in and I bought 12 containers, their limit!
For the other store, I had to call Corp. and a nice lady there told me not to worry
and she instructed that store to order and hold 12 more one quart containers for me.

The other containers of Mobil 1 ESP Formula 'M' did come from my local MBZ dealer
who retails it for $7.99 list. Got it through my friend for only $6.65, his dealerships' cost.

So don't always believe what these guys who answer the phone tell you!
Go to most any Pep Boys here in the US and they will either
have it or can order it for you should they be out.
But at $9.49 retail, I cannot afford that, so IF it is not on sale, I will use something else.

BTW, I'm sold on Mobil 1, having used it since it first came out in the 70s?
Back then it was 5W-20, but I used it anyhow in my turbocharged 1457 cc VW diesel.
Their ads in those days: Good for 25K miles or change once a year.
Ran that VW with 20 pounds boost and the oil helped it live!

Good luck and keep on using Mobil 1.



Derrel

220S

You might want to read the thread carefully. This isn't about the Formula M ESP Mobil 1. The oil in question is the Formula M 5W 40 (with no 'ESP' on the label.) The rep from Mobil was right on with what he was saying. You are using the ESP version which is readily available, and not the Formula M that AMG has recommended. They are two different oils.

p.s., I see you own a CDI. The ESP is for diesel motors (again read this thread.) This is an AMG forum and the concern is the oil for the M156 motors.

Green E-300 DT

Did not mean to intrude! Thought I was helping out. EXCUSE me!



Derrel

bhamg

The VOA by Blackstone that I saw for the ESP was 1054 phosphorus, 1259 zinc. There is another one I saw with similar but lower numbers. FWIW. Also, there have been some spectacularly good UOA's on this oil with gas engines (but not ours). I'll be the guinea pig...

The additive pack (if it's at this level) + better base stock + 5w weight = winner in my book.