Originally Posted by 220S

I seriously doubt that the "AMG PL staff" ever told you that ESP is recommended for the M156. They are recommending the Formula M 5W 40, not the ESP Formula 5W 40. Ask your service manager at your dealership and they will tell you the same thing. They have the most recent bulletins from MBUSA. They are using Formula M 5W 40 and ESP 5W 40 (for the diesels) in the overheads.

ESP is "emissions system protection" oil. It has reduced zinc and phosphorus so that there's less potential to kill the cats. Zinc and phosphorus can destroy catalytic convertors but at the same time they make up the ZDDP additive that promotes the thin coating of metal to metal parts. ZDDP is an anti-wear additive. ESP also has a reduced ash content specifically for diesel motors.

It may be fine to use ESP in gasoline motors with roller tappets but not in the M156 with the flat tappets. You need all the help you can get (especially in cold starts after the car has been sitting for a few days since the oil can bleed from the lifters and the cam lobes.) That's partly why the phosphorus content is particularly important. The Formula M 5W 40 is what you should be using. But it is exclusive to Mercedes dealerships and isn't a general retail product. You're much better off using the 0W 40 (with its high ppm of phosphorus and zinc) than using the ESP if you can't get the Formula M.

Just because ESP is a 229.51 oil doesn't necessarily mean the M156 is included. If you read BEVO you'll see that there are always specific exceptions to the 229.5 and 229.51 specifications.

Clearly, ESP won't necessarily kill your motor especially if you do OCIs more often then the 10k schedules. But it definitely has reduced phosphorus (and zinc) and is really not a good idea to use in a flat tappet designed motor. And if you're using ESP as an add oil when needed, it's no big deal (although you should use the 0W 40 instead.) But why would you use it as your primary fill oil?


Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 - Emission System Protection
Low Ash Content. Helps to reduce particulate build up in Diesel Particulate Filters. Low Sulphur and Phosphorous content. Helps to reduce poisoning of Gasoline Catalytic Converters. Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of high performance components formulated to be fully compatible with the latest Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF's) and Gasoline Catalytic Converters.

Originally Posted by 1Lop2K5C

Thanks, I ll take that into consideration. AMG reccomend we use the M156 with Mobil 1 that has 229.5 and 229.51 approved. Again in BEVO, it falls under 229.51(actual listed). The non ESP falls into the 229.5, then MB should just exclude the ESP under 229.51 then. You see my logic here. I dont want to argue but you are right in it isnt going to blow anyone engine up or failed under high load.

Originally Posted by bhamg

The VOA by Blackstone that I saw for the ESP was 1054 phosphorus, 1259 zinc. There is another one I saw with similar but lower numbers. FWIW. Also, there have been some spectacularly good UOA's on this oil with gas engines (but not ours). I'll be the guinea pig...

The additive pack (if it's at this level) + better base stock + 5w weight = winner in my book.

Originally Posted by 220S

I've never had Blackstone do a VOA for me from my own virgin oil. I've based my UOAs on the TBNs that they have already tested with different oils. Then I just base my UOA numbers compared to that. I use both Blackstone and Wear Check. I've also used LN Engineering. Since I use 0W-40 in my P-car, I'm going to go ahead and pour some out of a bottle from a case I have and get them to do a VOA with it. Then I'll do the same with some Formula M ESP and send in both. If I can get a sample of the Formula M (non ESP) from the Mercedes dealership, I'll send that in, too.

Originally Posted by 220S

It's odd that the ESP would have that high of a phosphorus ppm since it's design to protect the cats. My UOAs have been excellent with the OW-40 and always with good zinc and phosphorous numbers. But that's compared to the published TBNs from Mobil and not a random sample from my own stock of oil. So, it'll be interesting to see what Blackstone or Wear Check get for ppm numbers from my own personal virgin oil samples.

Originally Posted by 220S

One thing I'd be always alert about with the M156 motor (in light of the concern over premature cam lobe wear) is the amount of Fe in the UOAs. If it's high (and increases over time) it would definitely start to be concerning.

Originally Posted by 220S

btw, do you know exactly how the base stock between Formula M (non ESP) and Formula M ESP differ? Are there any API publications that discuss this? I know the OW-40 is a full PAO and cat IV syn oil. And I'm certain the Formula M (non ESP) is also. Thanks!

Originally Posted by bhamg

One strength of ESP that I've seen in some UOA's is very low Fe. M1 0w-40 was criticized for years as yielding high Fe numbers but I think that concern has been alleviated, if not debunked entirely, over time.

Originally Posted by bhamg

That's what has been speculated about by some who know a lot more than the casual observer such as myself. Isn't a analysis that identifies the base stock components quite expensive? I'm thinking $250-400 expensive? Short of that no one can say with certainty. Although Mobil 1 is well known for their PAO formulations they have always stated they use esters also.

Originally Posted by Pit-Pony

Good news

Cases of 6x1L of 599602 Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40 is in stock for $44.06 + tax, that's 30% cheaper than buying from the dealer and is available over the counter no problem.

Originally Posted by Pit-Pony

Good news

Cases of 6x1L of 599602 Mobil 1 Formula M 5W-40 is in stock for $44.06 + tax, that's 30% cheaper than buying from the dealer and is available over the counter no problem.

Originally Posted by Mort

Here is some data from an UOA I had done on the factory fill (Mobil 1 0W40 ? guessing). The oil had 6500 Km (4062.5m) with 1.5L added.

Iron 50
Copper 30
Tin 0
Lead 2
Chrom 2
Nickel 0
Alum 28
Titan 0
Silver 0
Calc 1136
Magn 106
Zinc 826
Phos 683
Bariu 0
Molyb 71
Antim 0
Silicon 24
Sodiu 14
Boron 127
Potas 0
Vanad 0
V40C 64.1
V100C 11.1
TAN 2.85
Flash 290
Oxid 32
NIT 10
KF 901
TBN 2.6
Fuel 1.55

Notes:
The oil sheared to a 0W30.
"Wear-In" levels are high.
M1 0W40 is OK allowing more wear than needed.
Tan outran TBN so it is good I changed the oil at this mileage.
On advice received I switched to RLI 5W40 (Renewable Lubricants Inc). It is not MB approved so I am going to Total as mentioned above for the next interval. I will have a UOA on the RLI when I change it and see how it does. Probably go back to RLI once the warranty is up.

Originally Posted by Pit-Pony

So, how do you interpret that data?

In particular, please explain does this statement

"Tan outran TBN so it is good I changed the oil at this mileage."

Originally Posted by bhamg

Mort's sample (thx for posting) is also strange in the respect that at 4k miles and particularly with 1.5L makeup oil added, I would have expected a TBN of above 6. That is very poor performance for this fill, alarming really.

Originally Posted by 220S

It appears to potentially be more of a motor issue than an oil issue, imho. Maybe the oil is getting contaminated. I haven't yet seen that sort of poor performance with the M156 and Mobil 1.

Originally Posted by Pit-Pony

So, how do you interpret that data?

In particular, please explain does this statement

"Tan outran TBN so it is good I changed the oil at this mileage."

Originally Posted by 220S

That's good news (for Canadians.) It looks like it's not going to be a retail product in the US though. As I mentioned before it may have to do with the difference of the dealership network here, etc..



Interesting. Your wear numbers seem really high. And your phosphorous and zinc counts are much lower than I've ever had recorded. Plus your V100C is at 11.1 Did you have any indication of some fuel or water in your oil? What kind of driving do you do and in what conditions?

When I had my car I changed the factory fill very early and the wear levels were good (but the oil had very little time on it.) The next change with the same mileage as you just mentioned also had excellent wear in light of the low time on the motor, and my V40C was 71.2 and the V100C was 12.72 (both right where they should be.) Iron was at 13. Aluminum was at 3, and the same with copper. Zinc was 1160 and phosphorus at 976. It was also Mobil 1 0W 40. Each consecutive UOA after those still had similar numbers and the iron went down to 9. Aluminum has always been low at 3-5, along with copper.

btw, I personally think changing the factory fill much early on (1k to 1.5k miles) is a really good idea. Some people agree and some don't. But it's always served me well.

Originally Posted by Mort

As 220S mentioned the TAN (Total Acid Number) is greater than the TBN (Total Base Number) and therefore the TBN components (alkalies) are no longer able to neutralize the acid in the oil and the acid will wear/etch internal engine components such as aluminum parts and not sure what else. Either way that is not good and this oil is not even at half of a full drain interval. That means the acid will have an extended duration of time to cause internal engine wear if run for a full scheduled interval.

I drive pretty normally I think. I drove the car from May to Nov so no extreme weather conditions and the car is always stored in a heated basement garage and spent only one day a week parked outside. I ran it to high speeds a few times and once to the limiter. I also did a dozen or so burn outs to red line in S1 but it would not spin through the 1-2 shift. Other than that I drove it in C most of the time at relatively low rpm but never lugging. When it dropped to 1500 rpm I would down shift and bring the revs up to 2000-3000. I did one road trip to Mount Tremblant of about 2500km of highway miles. I drive very few city miles and mostly rural/highway miles. I live in New Brunswick close to the Bay Of Fundy and our ambient temps are never too high in the summer.