morganb

The Service Supervisor just told me that with the heads on and the water system pressurized then water is coming up through the head bolts. At this stage these are still the old head bolts. I am not quite sure how this would let water get into the engine Would there should still be gasket between the head bolt and the combustion chamber? Water was found in both banks of cylinders. This also happened very quickly with the low coolant light to massive amounts of smoke and running really rough over about 45 seconds to 1 minute of car running time. This seems to me to be something that would happen slowly. Next they plan to put new head bolts in (in Australia they also have the note to use the "new" head bolts) and pressurise the coolant system again and see if the water is still coming up through the head bolts. Any suggestions or comments appreciated.

CoolBDPhenom03

Thanks for the update and keeping records of all of this. Maybe you can convince your dealer to push this up to MB HQ and see if we can get some preventative maintenance or replacement of the headbolts. I'd like to see them take care of this before a class action ruling. Extending warranties is fine, but it's really just covering their butts WHEN this happens. I'd rather them try to nip this in the bud BEFORE it becomes an issue.

morganb

I am in Australia so I do not think what happens on our little Island will affect you blokes in the US. After the problem is determined it will go up to MB Aust to ask for assistance, as the car is just out of warranty I am hoping to get them to help or cover all of this. At the same time I will mention to the dealer about others and this could go in the submission.

DuaneC63

There is a head gasket between the deck of each bank of cylinders and the heads. The gaskets seal the combustion chambers and allow coolant and oil to pass between the heads and the block while keeping everything separate. The head bolts on the M156 motor are torque to yield. Each head bolt achieves a specified clamping pressure by being tightened to a specific torque then turned an additional specific number of degrees. All this is done by a robot to get uniform results. The upper section of the bolts are designed to stretch slightly to achieve the specified clamping pressure. It appears that the design of the head bolts (or perhaps the metallurgy) was incorrect. This fault in the design allows the head bolt(s) to stretch further (and in some cases snap). The failure of one head bolt puts additional stress on the other bolts causing additional failures. The loss of clamping pressure allows coolant and oil into the combustion chamber. (Coolant can also be forced up through the failed head bolt locations into the top of the heads.) This is what caused all the smoke and rough idle. In severe cases this will cause hydro lock in one or more of the cylinders, causing the piston(s) to seize and destroying the entire motor. By pressure testing the cooling system, your dealer has determined that the head bolts have failed allowing coolant into the cylinders. MBZ has a revised head bolt design as detailed in a service bulletin. The repair involves removing the heads and checking each piston at top dead center to see if the con rod is not bent. New head gaskets, new revised head bolts and new revised lifters (another issue) are then used when the heads are re-installed. Due to the design of the twin overhead cams in the M156 motor this is a complicated and very time consuming repair. Hopefully you are still underwarranty.

DuaneC63

Although I wish you were correct, the cost to retro fit every suspect M156 motor is cost prohibitive, and since this is not a DOT or EPA issue (they could care less about "rich guys" buying cars with massive hp) I doubt they will force a recall. The best you can hope for the "BMW M3" solution were the warranty on the motor is extended.

morganb

I have been told new style head bolts will be used with new gaskets. I had not asked about the revised lifters and that is a good point for me to follow up on. With regards to warranty I am about 6 months out of warranty.

Bruce

DuaneC63

Bruce,
MBZ is aware of the problem as evidenced by their service bulletin (attached) and revised head bolts. Unfortunately they blocked access to the bulletin text so you only have the reference. I would really press the warranty issue with them. They should cover most if not all the repair.

Sincity

Wouldn't it be an EPA issue if the coolant was to burn and causing white smoke?

morganb

Outside of the car the heads have been put back on the engine block, New head bolts installed, another set of new gaskets and now no water comes out of the head bolts when the cooling system is pressurized.
Seems the old style head bolts are the issue.
Next Step- The Dealer is applying to MB Aust to request them to cover 100% of the repairs. I am sure I have a good case with all the background that some of you have helped me with. Thanks to all those who contributed.

If MB reject the application to cover the repairs I will need to determine how to proceed as it seems there is defintely a fault with the bolts that MB is aware of and possibly should have addressed earlier.

Bruce

DuaneC63

Bruce,
Did they install the new M159 lifters while the engine was apart? It's part of the service bulletin. I know of at least one out of warranty member that got the cost split 75% MBZ 25% owner. While that is not a great result, it beats a sharp stick in the eye. I don't know if they have small claims court in AUS, but its very consumer friendly over here.

morganb

Good Point, I will ask. Its not back in car yet so hoping it can be done as part of the install.

morganb

I had a call from the Dealer, this time the workshop Manager who is doing the application for assistance from MBenz Australia. He asked me how much I was willing to contribute to the repair. I was suprised to get this question. Has anyone else had a similar experience with MBenz (particuarly Australia) and what was the outcome. For the record I said I would contribute some but as the car is low KM, always serviced at main dealer and there is a known fault with the head bolts I would expect MB to foot the majority of it. Note I bought the car second hand not from the main dealer.

bhamg

JMO, no more than 33%.

DuaneC63

Morgan,
The only out of warranty failure I've heard of was split 75/25 MBZ/Owner. You should find out the total cost including the M159 lifters per the service advisory (you also get an oil change and coolant change out of it too). As much as this sucks, I would give this serious consideration.

CoolBDPhenom03

How about none because it's a design flaw?

morganb

I am hoping for this and pushed my case with the change in design of the head bolts and this occurring in many other C63's.

The case for and Against MB paying as I see it:
Personally
Fors: Always service by MB on the dot including 2 weeks before this incident, own 2 other MB carr (though not bought from main dealer)
Against: Not bought new, not bought from MB dealer

Engineering/Data
For: Seems to be commonly occurring (though no data to support this), Design has changed of the head bolts indication that something was not right in the first place.
Against: No data to support failure rates.

Others
For: Good Will, prices for used C63 may drop if this approx $20K repair is not covered upsetting many current owners, avoid possible bad publicity for the AMG/MB Brand
Against: The cost to MB

Feel free to add as if I have an ongoing discussion with them the more "For" points I have the better.

BerBer63

there are no pros or cons...it's a TSB documented within the service system. You pay 0$ or talk to a lawyer.

bhamg

But remember, morganb's car is out of warranty.

BerBer63

Forgot that point, then all I can say is good luck...

I'm starting to get worried myself. About a week ago my car's exhaust smell started to change. Usually it's always very gassy/smoggy.

At first it was kind of a chemical synthetic smell (not like burnt tires, brake pads) and now its kind of almost too pleasant of a chemical smell (not sweet like coolant is described). I can't figure it out just yet... No coolant light, no white smoke. My coolant level is about 3/4 inch below the black tab in the reservoir tank. I guess I'll just keep an eye on it. Even my gf noticed it was changed because she can't stand the exhaust smell at red lights...

DuaneC63

Don't wait to take it in. Things can only get worse.

morganb

Apparently due to the cost of my repair (the dealer said $35K ) it has gone to the Managing Director of MB Australia to make the call tomorrow as to if they will contribute to the repair. This is a full rebuild, piston, rings and all bearings as well as the head bolts and gaskets.

Bruce

Watchbeat

OMG! Hope you don't have to pay a cent.

Good luck!

morganb

Finally I have a response from MB Australia. They have offered to buy all the new parts and rebuild the motor at their cost. I am to pay for the motor installation and testing up to A$ 5K. The Dealer I spoke to was quite aplogetic about the time taken to make this offer and said this was part of the reason for the offer being generous. He expects my contribution will be less than 5K.
There are cases for more MB contribution and some for less however overall I am satisfied with this. Now to get the car fixed and back on the road. It will still take aboot another 4 weeks to get all the parts, rebuild and test.
My co-contribution will result in a 12 month warranty on the engine.

bhamg

Congrats Bruce...it is settled! Everyone will have their own thoughts on this but IMO you made out fine considering the amount of work to be done and parts required. So now we have a benchmark going forward too...

BerBer63

Still don't get why anyone should pay for this factory mnfg defect...I understand you are out of warranty but everyone knows what the problem is. Has nothing to do with owners driving.

I think it may be best to take your car in at least once prior to warranty just stating that your coolant light went off and you refilled it on your own for documentation purposes or someone be low on coolant...(use ur imagination). That way it will be covered even out of warranty or at least it should be. You can point and say "look I brought it into you guys and you did nothing then". And ask them to bring up the TSB...

Just saying you got to do what you have to do sometimes...