oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

You are 100% correct it does create questions and we are ready to answer any of them. To my knowledge I do not think any of the BS owners have been to the track. Feel free to call, PM, post publicly, any other questions or concerns you may have.

Best Regards,

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

Excited about this, see you tomorrow.

rage2

You don't need a track to do 1/4 mile testing. You can pretty much do it anywhere if you have the Performance Media option.

NellyRod

Kaiba, it's clear you're attempting to get a free tune out of this scenario because you feel the product wasn't to your liking, but your approach to the situation is unneccesary. You made it known that you did not know the difference between the acronyms HP, BHP, RWHP. Hopefully you understand that you are on a forum of enthusiast, so your credibility at that point became very questionable as well. This entire situation should have been handled off line.

Kaiba

I'm def. not looking for a free tune. I have been misinformed by Velos on the expected gains ( ie 50-60 hp where I have 12 hp.. )
There is no questions of "likings" in this thread. I've never driven the car with the velos tune so I can't speak about likings !
Its a matter of facts & dyno graphs.
Don't get me wrong. When I first received the tuner from Velos , everything was more than professional with the USB ring , the velos keychain etc... That was cool ! Actually I already started to make a report about my car with MHP headers & Velos tune.....

Knowing the difference between HP BHP & RWHP makes you a car enthusiast ?? LOL.
You sound like Jacob...

I didn't want to make that thread public. The point is that I spoke with Velos multiple times by email. After a week , it was clear to me that they never wanted to find any solutions with me.
Plus , the thread started like how cool the velos tune is. I just posted to advise that my tune never worked as advertised. Then it became a war facts vs imagination.
I can see that me being in France can cause your misunderstanding....

Again , with the video next week , I hope everyone will understand the situation.
Who would pay for a useless tune ?

I am not willing to post email copies but I shall let everyone know that I asked Velos a refund the 1st day the tune didn't worked. Even before my shop made a custom dyno tune. They should have refunded me at that time and I would have sent everything back directly.
They tried to find any possible solutions not to do so. ( sending me a lemon tune for example "just to test" ).

Again , THE TUNE IS NOT IN MY CAR !!!!!!! If I send everything back to Velos , I will not have acces to their tune anymore !!!!!!!!!
Is there something you don't understand in that sentence ?

PS : If I can afford a C63 BS , and maybe a SLS BS in near future , I think I can afford a tune...... I just don't like to be fooled...

Agent_Oorange

Dyno numbers before and after the tune I'll have next weekend - 1/4 mile I'll do what I can with perf media if there are any dry days here (Pacific North West so maybe not haha)

propain

Maybe I am confused, does the site say 50+ HP gain if the car has a PP on it and is already rated at 500whp in its stock form? This is a black series? Pretty much the same HP as a P31 car. We have known for quite some time that a tune doesnt net much at all over a P31 tune. 10whp sounds about right.

How do we know that the tune isnt in your car? Your word?

Send them your ECU and the handheld as well and they can flash it back to stock. THEN it will be clear that your car has no tune on it.

You don't like to be fooled yet you are trying to fool someone. Ironic.

rage2

The site does say 53hp gain for the CBS. From the first page:

http://velosdesignwerks.com/products...es-c63-amg-bs/

Guilty

I don't think a guy that can afford a CBS (plus he lives in France where it's way more expensive) is looking to get a free tune.

I understand his frustration since I don't like to be fooled myself.

Guilty

propain

My mistake then, I thought this was a P31 car or the Kaiba was thinking he would get the gains a non P31 car would get in a P31.


A few things, 53 HP gain is not WHP. So figure 18% less for drive train loss. Also VELOS advertises STD correction, not SAE. So figure at least another 2.6% difference in results in favor of the STD correction.

I have been busting VELOS ***** about this since day one and they always apologize and say it wont happen again yet they continue to use the inflated STD numbers here and on their web site. Thats bad business in my opinion and probably part of this problem here.

All in all the gains of 10whp seems about right going from P31 to Tuned whp. VELOS needs to correct their numbers on their website and refund the guys money as long as he sends back the handheld.

rage2

Yea, at 53hp flywheel gain, you should be seeing at least a 40whp gain. Kaiba saw nowhere near that, and it's with headers. That's why he's understandably upset and wants a refund.

We have a few guys that's purchased the tunes now, so we'll see more numbers in the next week. If the tune does give a 53hp boost, there'll be a lot of BS owners in line wanting the tune.

propain

With headers I can see that gain with a header tune. Without headers no chance gaining 40whp over the already 50whp from the factory tune.

I can see his frustration now, I misunderstood the car he had.

Kaiba

Thank you guys , I was getting crazy lol.

I should add that , being no car expert , I only see "Horsepower gains" on the site. No mention of WHP or RWHP or HP. So basically , its a gain of 53xxxx among anything.

Again , as I'm not an expert , that should be clearly described as WHP or RWHP on the website. Plus , Omar cleary stated that I should gain 50-60 hp with headers installed.

I'm glad we are now understanding each others. I should maybe have been more clear on my car specs.

propain

Nahh it was my fault. I tend to gloss over these drama threads. You seems to have a case this time.

You should see 50-60HP gains with headers, with a header tune.

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

His baseline dyno was done with headers and the initial dyno operator loaded the incorrect file when running the dyno ( he has also left out the fact that the hood was closed at all times except for when custom tune was done, he says he knows this because of the on board dash cam. Anyone that has ever tested this knows it will make a difference of 10+hp ) When he went to the next "tuner" they advised him they needed to open up his ECU (prior to this his email states the tuner was not able to tune M156 cars). Initially we were told the ECU was backed up but then his "tuner" emailed us and advised he made changes to our tune for whatever reason. Let's assume he is 100% correct, this means the tuner used the information in the tuned computer (originated from Velos) along with the stock file we also provided and was now able to tune a car he could not previously tune (Keep in mind there would be no need to open up the computer if they did not need our information) Let's say he threw in X amount of timing and leaned the car out to make X horsepower he would not have been able to do this with the files purchase by the customer. That is where the issue is that even if what he is saying is true the file(s) he purchased from us are still being used to tune his car. I offered a refund on the personal tuner and then he asked me to keep it (which supported my original theory that our software was still in the car since the personal tuner only works with our files).

We are doing a Non PP C63 tomorrow as well as a C63 Black Series, we will educate both customers coming in as well as provide before and after dynos for both cars. We will also answer any questions they may have. At no point will we have to open the ECU of any of their cars.

The individuals story has changed several times and we have said the same thing from the start.... We would have avoided this entire public show but if the customer paid for software and then had (assuming what he said is accurate) another tuner use that information to then create a custom tune there is nothing to refund because it is being used. Software purchased, software used... its really that simple. Personal tuner is still in his possession as well because it is "convenient" which is fine but I can't refund something you still have.

The website has always showed STD and you are correct you have asked for the SAE charts whenever asked. Kenny was not aware because most other communities just go with STD. We honestly just look for the difference but we understand. We are all on the same page regarding the SAE moving forward. Our apologies for any confusion that may have caused.

At the end of the day this is part of the business especially when dealing with client's overseas that go to other tuners/shops that have financial incentives which was clearly the case here. Sorry for the long read.


Best Regards,

propain

Thanks for the reply and for clarifying on some questions. There is always more to the story. I think he should return the handheld if he wants a refund. No question.

And sae correction is the standard in almost every community I know of and I own many different cars. Shops like to use std numbers because of the inflated results to those who dont know better. Anyone looking for results should insist on sae when shopping around. Its pretty much the standard.

What about the claim of 40whp on the black series without headers? That seems high to be honest without headers. What is a good baseline number for the black series in whp? Sae.... lol

Kaiba

Thanks for the answer Omar.

However , I think you are still missing the point.
You are still hidding behind "the tuner opened the ECU". I told you million times , he opened the ECU to backup my original file ( ie stock file ).
Again you are wrong , the base line was done with NO modifications to the car.
Please get your facts right and clear ... I'm fed up...

Stock car : 499 hp
Headers but no software : 512 hp
Headers & Velos software : 523 hp

End of the line... You know about these facts from day 1 so stop trying to confuse everyone !!!

AGAIN , I told you million times I can send you the tuner back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop hidding behind a sentence I said 3 weeks ago... Yes I think the tuner is convinient but I have no use if the tune doesn't work !!
Again , you have no idea if the tune is still in my car !!!!!!!!! I can flash back to stock for you to rest assured and send you back the tuner ...

I honestly don't care about your $400 refund for the tuner ( It works so why shouldn't I pay for it .. ). I want my $1400 for the tune !! I can send you the tuner and still pay $400 for it if that bugs you. But I want the $1400 back !! The tune doesn't work as advertised , no matter how you look at it ...

Coming from a vendor that says he can get +50hp easily just modding the dyno , I'm not ready to believe you anymore...

Yes the hood was closed. So you drive your car with the hood up ??? I don't know about you but in France they use large fans to create a real world environment...
Also , this clearly shows you are somehow "cheating" your dyno results to get extra hp that will not be effective on the road.


Stop being stupid... This story could be over 1 week ago when I sent you the dyno graphs... You are in a tought spot with false HP gains claims... I don't say your tune doesn't work , I say it doesn't work on my car.
Send me my $1400 back , I flash back to stock & I send you the tuner back. End of the discussion & I will not post the recorded results of stock vs velos.

propain

Can you guys please stop posting crank HP. Its confusing me! LOL.

What is the baseline whp of the black series? What was the whp with the headers without the tune and then with the tune.



Ok some problems I see might be adding to this....

You put headers on your car without a tune for it.
You put a tune on the car that isnt a header tune.

Both of the above can hurt your power.

I still call BS on 50+ HP gain on a black series with just a tune. It already comes with most of its power unlocked out of the box. I guess time will tell since a few BS owners have purchased the tune.

Kaiba

With 18% loss , my stock BS made 410whp
Headers installed with STOCK SOFTWARE FOR HEADERS ( provided by Velos in the handheld tuner as per my requests : 421 whp
Headers installed with VELOS PERFORMANCE SOFTWARE FOR HEADERS : 427 whp

Velos provided a stock tune that works with headers. That tune was loaded prior to fire up the car the first time.
Knowing I would install headers in the same time , they gave me that special tune ( that was appreciated a lot ! ) It can also be used to revert to stock tune in case of service and still work with headers
Yes it was a header tune. That was clear from the beginning with Velos.


Definitely ... I should've been aware of that instead of rushing for the higher hp gains availlable... Even the custom tune with headers can "only" get 440 whp ... Very far from what to be expected.

I only hope their dyno results will not be biased ( hood open method , dyno tweaks as advised by Omar etc... )

I should've waited for other customer with BS to show up ....

Guilty

Velos, stop being cheap and refund the guy his money.

propain

Extremely weak results considering that info that the tune was FOR HEADERS.

You should be easily at 450whp with headers and a good header tune. Call OE after you get your money back.

Gremlin9

You can easily juice any dyno by throwing some ultra-fortified canola oil over the engine cover -- this is usually good for an extra 35 whp or so.

Maybe velos pulled the ol canola oil trick?

Or maybe they threw some chilled maple syrup on the engine during the stock dyno, which can lower whp by about 20 whp and make the post-tune dyno run seem even even more impressive?

Couple the stock maple syrup run with the tuned canola dyno run and we're talking about some pretty impressive gains...

HoozyerdaddyC63

Velos has dyno showing 465 rwhp with just a tune and an x-pipe. Every time I read that I have to wonder why other tuners are only getting 470 rwhp with tune, filters, LTH's, mids, and x-pipe.

If it's really that strong without headers I'd like to see what their tune does when headers are included. It should be pushing 500 rwhp, no?

propain

Xpipe adds Ougotts. Better flowing filter adds a few. 465rwhp even using STD is quite high.

Someone with the tune got an 11.8@117 on street tires with a 1.8 60'. While it was a great time on streets and probably an 11.7 with drags and a 1.7 60' its nowhere near what 465rwhp is getting. The trap is also quite low considering the DA was good.