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Performance Pack vs. 507 Edition

 
Old 06-23-2013, 01:34 AM
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In that case, I stand corrected. I may have been reading about the estate and made the wrong connection. My apologies.

The somewhat intriguing bit is that the ROW cars have 457 & 487 bhp for the regular / P31 engines respectively, hence the 507 has the claimed 50 (or 20) bhp upgrade to those. Is it still going to be called the 507 edition in NA where the cars are rated at 451 / 481 bhp because of our emission requirements?

I think that the APX package actually became called APX at the 2012 facelift when the car got the MCT tranny, hence the APX really is the same car as the NA 507 if/when it comes here, with the obvious exception of the cosmetic differences.
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:46 AM
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I am just curious - I have been googling the 507 for the last hour but am still unable to find anything about it being brought to Canada. 1st amg & rage2 - are you guys by any chance able to point me in the right direction? I know that the 507 car was on display at the New York auto show, but I found nothing in terms of press releases from MB (unlike Australia for example, where even the pricing has already been announced). Are the 2014 Canadian (or even US) cars going to be officially called the "Edition 507" or is it the same spec as ROW but without the badge if you will?
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:03 AM
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Accidently came across this video while at work this morning. Here is a back to back oem pp tune vs OE tuned pp car. 20whp and tq increase across nearly entire rpm band. Perhaps we shall agree to disagree my friend lol.

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Old 06-23-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by plague View Post
Accidently came across this video while at work this morning. Here is a back to back oem pp tune vs OE tuned pp car. 20whp and tq increase across nearly entire rpm band. Perhaps we shall agree to disagree my friend lol.

2013 C63 AMG P31 Dyno Results - Before vs. After Tuning - YouTube

We're not really disagreeing - it says right in the title that it's a 91 octane tune. And, for what it's worth, I have seen back-to-back dyno runs (two pulls in succession) by same car without ANYTHING being changed on the vehicle that have varied as much as 30 hp (it was a Z06 'vette, I think at JRP in Etobicoke).
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Old 06-23-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Diabolis View Post
In that case, I stand corrected. I may have been reading about the estate and made the wrong connection. My apologies.

The somewhat intriguing bit is that the ROW cars have 457 & 487 bhp for the regular / P31 engines respectively, hence the 507 has the claimed 50 (or 20) bhp upgrade to those. Is it still going to be called the 507 edition in NA where the cars are rated at 451 / 481 bhp because of our emission requirements?

I think that the APX package actually became called APX at the 2012 facelift when the car got the MCT tranny, hence the APX really is the same car as the NA 507 if/when it comes here, with the obvious exception of the cosmetic differences.
My sales contract for my 2010 shows as APX, Canada's code for P30/P31 listed under factory options.

I too thought the difference in HP ratings was because of the row air box, but it was pointed out in an old thread I found that it is how MB rates the engine HP in Europe vs NA

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...stified-3.html

I posed the question to AMG on Facebook when they announced the 507, if I can have my car flashed with the 507 tune seeing the engines appear to be the same, they responded that they are not, how? I don't know.
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Old 06-23-2013, 10:51 AM
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Loving how much feedback you guys are giving ... keep it coming - its a very interesting debate.

So, I am very new to both MB and my AMG C63 Coupe (pp) which I picked up on Saturday. I see some new terms you guys are using that I've not seen on any UK forums:
P31, P31 and APX. Can anybody give me a real quick summary please?

Thanks...

Last edited by andymc; 06-23-2013 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 06-23-2013, 11:18 AM
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Why would a 507 have more hp then my p31? As a car fanatic and a diehard amg fan. It would be respectfully for a amg rep to enlighten us on this great forum of ours. I know that when I had a e 92 m3 and a m5 The forum had a lot of help from a rep on the m3 post forum. Insider spy shots and actual tips on upcoming BMW cars in a form of a riddle. Which kept the members glued.
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Old 06-23-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mvagusta View Post
Why would a 507 have more hp then my p31? As a car fanatic and a diehard amg fan. It would be respectfully for a amg rep to enlighten us on this great forum of ours. I know that when I had a e 92 m3 and a m5 The forum had a lot of help from a rep on the m3 post forum. Insider spy shots and actual tips on upcoming BMW cars in a form of a riddle. Which kept the members glued.
Id assume that the 507 has just a few extra hp over the p31.. just an alteration in tuning. Why? Well to give the 507 edition a bit of distiguishment and have it be the highest factory output of the 6.2L being it is the last year for it coming equipped in the c63.. makes sense..
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:16 PM
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I finally got a chance to dyno my stock 2013 P31 and it put down 413whp, I think the P31 and 507 are very close in hp.
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:55 PM
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A tune will give us 25 hp over a p31? Do we have any tuners that guarantee the 25 hp ?
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Old 06-23-2013, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by andymc View Post
Loving how much feedback you guys are giving ... keep it coming - its a very interesting debate.

So, I am very new to both MB and my AMG C63 Coupe (pp) which I picked up on Saturday. I see some new terms you guys are using that I've not seen on any UK forums:
P31, P31 and APX. Can anybody give me a real quick summary please?

Thanks...
P30/P31 are MB's code names for the performance package which is also known as the development package.
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Diabolis View Post
We're not really disagreeing - it says right in the title that it's a 91 octane tune. And, for what it's worth, I have seen back-to-back dyno runs (two pulls in succession) by same car without ANYTHING being changed on the vehicle that have varied as much as 30 hp (it was a Z06 'vette, I think at JRP in Etobicoke).
But a 91 octane tune is not anything. 91 is low, atleast for me as im used to 93 and 94 in jersey. What im saying is its not like thr c63 comes tuned from the factory for 89. it is tuned for more the less a 91~ octane fuel. If it were a 94 octane tune in the video there might be some ground to the octane being the dominant variable..

Last edited by plague; 06-23-2013 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 06-23-2013, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaygee3 View Post
I finally got a chance to dyno my stock 2013 P31 and it put down 413whp, I think the P31 and 507 are very close in hp.
It would be good to put a B.S. on the same dyno at the same time to see what it made.
In any event, I believe that there would be small differences between P31, Edition 507, & B.S.,....and that difference would be simply...in the ECU.....and yes, I would like my Dealer to be able to "upgrade" my ECU (P31) to B.S.....but I know it ain't gonna happen.....'cause M.B. will NOT do it.
Cheers, Pickles.
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Diabolis View Post
I am just curious - I have been googling the 507 for the last hour but am still unable to find anything about it being brought to Canada. 1st amg & rage2 - are you guys by any chance able to point me in the right direction? I know that the 507 car was on display at the New York auto show, but I found nothing in terms of press releases from MB (unlike Australia for example, where even the pricing has already been announced). Are the 2014 Canadian (or even US) cars going to be officially called the "Edition 507" or is it the same spec as ROW but without the badge if you will?
I received an email from the dealer for my brothers order and it was the DOG or Dealer Ordering Guide, so if you ask your dealer he should know about it. If he doesnt, go to another dealer.
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Pickles View Post
It would be good to put a B.S. on the same dyno at the same time to see what it made.
In any event, I believe that there would be small differences between P31, Edition 507, & B.S.,....and that difference would be simply...in the ECU.....and yes, I would like my Dealer to be able to "upgrade" my ECU (P31) to B.S.....but I know it ain't gonna happen.....'cause M.B. will NOT do it.
Cheers, Pickles.
???? Get an aftermarket tune and youre there.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by plague View Post
But a 91 octane tune is not anything. 91 is low, atleast for me as im used to 93 and 94 in jersey. What im saying is its not like thr c63 comes tuned from the factory for 89. it is tuned for more the less a 91~ octane fuel. If it were a 94 octane tune in the video there might be some ground to the octane being the dominant variable..
It is not the dominant variable, but it is about it being able to compensate for you putting in even 87 octane gas in a car that normally requires 91. The OEM tune will allow you to make that mistake (your putting in regular instead of premium) and will retard the timing sufficiently and run the A/F ratio at a point where there will be no damage to your engine. I am not sure if an aftermarket tune can retard the timing to the point where you won't experience any pinging/knocking if you put in 87 octane gas. It's about having an allowable margin of error.

Again, keep in mind that that the OEM tunes are always written for maximum driveability under all conditions, whereas the "tuner" tunes are about top numbers. As I said earlier, you may be able to squeeze out an extra 10 or 15 HP out of a 500 HP motor, but (a) there is no way that you could even feel that, and (b) it usually comes at the expense of something else. More than half of the tunes out there for n/a Porsche cars won't let you pass your emissions check at the tailpipe in places like California or Ontario.

Lastly, Daimler's annual R&D budget is over 5 BILLION EUROS. The tuners out there are playing with a few cars on a trial-and-error basis and coming up with miracles. Unless you (a) either modify the engine or (b) the car is artificially restricted, there is no way that you can get more power out of a given motor without sacrificing something else, whether it's the margin of error, every-day driveability, emissions or engine reliability. Period.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:46 AM
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Plague, I think I may have found something that will give you even more horsepower - check out the Automotive section at http://www.shakti-innovations.com/index.html.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by crazy1eye View Post
P30/P31 are MB's code names for the performance package which is also known as the development package.
P31 Package
. lightweight AMG forged pistons
. lightweight connecting rods
. revised crankshaft
. revised ECU
. red-painted brake calipers
. CF trunk spoiler
. exclusive engine intake runners in titanium grey finish
. top speed increased to 174 mph
. power increase (+30 hp)
. AMG performance steering wheel in black premium leather with Alcantara side grips
. AMG high-performance braking system with compound front rotors 14.2" with 6-piston fixed calipers at front axle, perforated and internally ventilated for optimum weight and enhanced fatigue strength

The P30 package was a predecessor to the P31, and while it lacked a number of the upgrades in the P31, it had a proper limited-slip differential and an AMG track-tuned suspension (which were subsequently removed from the P31 cars in the US). While the LSD could be optioned separately, the AMG track-tuned suspension was completely removed because of ride-quality complaints by US customers.

The Canadian APX package car has all of the above (including the AMG stiffer suspension) fitted as standard.

EDIT:
The spec sheet also lists it as being completely de-restricted speed-wise (instead of it being raised to the higher limit) and people have reported hitting top speeds just shy of 300 km/h in the 2012/2013 MCT-equipped cars, although some literature still mentions the raised speed limiter as opposed to it being completely removed.

Last edited by Diabolis; 06-24-2013 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:18 PM
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Nevermind...
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Diabolis View Post
P31 Package
. lightweight AMG forged pistons
. lightweight connecting rods
. revised crankshaft
. revised ECU
. red-painted brake calipers
. CF trunk spoiler
. exclusive engine intake runners in titanium grey finish
. top speed increased to 174 mph
. power increase (+30 hp)
. AMG performance steering wheel in black premium leather with Alcantara side grips
. AMG high-performance braking system with compound front rotors 14.2" with 6-piston fixed calipers at front axle, perforated and internally ventilated for optimum weight and enhanced fatigue strength

The P30 package was a predecessor to the P31, and while it lacked a number of the upgrades in the P31, it had a proper limited-slip differential and an AMG track-tuned suspension (which were subsequently removed from the P31 cars in the US). While the LSD could be optioned separately, the AMG track-tuned suspension was completely removed because of ride-quality complaints by US customers.

The Canadian APX package car has all of the above (including the AMG stiffer suspension) fitted as standard.

EDIT:
The spec sheet also lists it as being completely de-restricted speed-wise (instead of it being raised to the higher limit) and people have reported hitting top speeds just shy of 300 km/h in the 2012/2013 MCT-equipped cars, although some literature still mentions the raised speed limiter as opposed to it being completely removed.
The P31 has lightweight AMG forged pistons, but my understanding is the 507 has forged internals of the SLS, which explains why the AMG rep on Facebook stated that they are not the same engine...
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Old 10-03-2013, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by coladin View Post
The P31 has lightweight AMG forged pistons, but my understanding is the 507 has forged internals of the SLS, which explains why the AMG rep on Facebook stated that they are not the same engine...
The P31, 507, and BS all have the exact same forged internals from the SLS. Pistons, connecting rods, and a lightweight crankshaft.
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Old 10-03-2013, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonymckay View Post
The P31, 507, and BS all have the exact same forged internals from the SLS. Pistons, connecting rods, and a lightweight crankshaft.
I guess it all boils down to more aggressive mapping then. Either way, I am lucky to have gone from a 451bhp C63 to the 507 as it sure feels noticeable!
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Old 10-03-2013, 03:46 PM
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I don't suppose anyone in the bay area with a stock 507 would like to meetup and dyno our cars? I would like to see an actual real world graph of the P31 vs the 507. Even better would be if we could also get someone with a stock Black Series to do a comparison of all three? (paging Neoprufrok)
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by anthonymckay View Post
I don't suppose anyone in the bay area with a stock 507 would like to meetup and dyno our cars? I would like to see an actual real world graph of the P31 vs the 507. Even better would be if we could also get someone with a stock Black Series to do a comparison of all three? (paging Neoprufrok)
EXCELLENT idea,,,3 cars,(incl a B.S.!) on the same dyno, on the same day.
Cheers, Pickles.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:44 PM
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