Hey All ...

I've read the spec's of both a standard C63 with Performance pack and the new 507 model.

Seems they share many things (Brakes and SLS engine components).

The PP gives an additional 30 hp and the 507 has an extra 20 over PP.

My question is - what additional work was done to the 507 for the extra 20 hp?

 

Most likely better tune...

 

This.

A stock non-PP C63 with a decent tune will make around "507".

 

MB is always conservative with numbers. "507" is more likely 520, since most P31s dynoing make about 490-500hp average base hp. Some even hit 11s on the 1/4 in stock form.

 

That's why I put 507 in quotes. But as relative gains go, my point is that it seems similar to the gains seen from current aftermarket tunes.

 

I understood. Didn't think my last comment would offend you. Sorry. But yes, aftermarket tunes have similar specs. Hope our info is helpful to the OP.

 

From what I was told by someone "in the know" at one of the MB corporate stores in Toronto, the 507 is essentially a 2012/13 Canadian APX car (P31+P30+LSD) with the BS hood, new wheels and different door trim (he had just returned from a training trip at the MB head office in Germany). I was inquiring about the possibility of putting on the 507 ECU tune on my car in order not to void the factory warranty, and he said that even the ECU maps are likely not going to be any different.

While the regular C63 is intentionally de-tuned, the P31 & APX engine horsepower figures are underrated for marketing purposes. Every P31 or APX car actually delivers more than the rated 481 hp (487 in Europe), usually upwards of 500 as numerous dyno tests have shown. The numbers are intentionally misrepresented in order to justify the price premium for the Black Series (delivering the same power), other more expensive cars using the M156 engine at the time (-2008 S63, E63, SL63, CLS63 & CL63) and, more importantly, the SLS AMG which is 2.5 times the price of the P31/APX. While the SLS does have a somewhat reworked motor (M159) with a dry sump and other modified bits that the P31/APX M156 engine does not, the difference needs to exist at least on paper so that the sales of the other more expensive AMG models do not suffer as a result. The 507 will be the last iteration of the M156 engine before the new 2015 force-fed C63, and it's just a face-lift so that MB will still manage to sell some 2014MY C63 cars.

While the gent I spoke to at the dealership knew that I had just bought a loaded 2013 car and it is conceivable that he was just saying this to make me feel good about my purchase, I have no reason to doubt his story as he is very high on the technical side of the corporate ladder if you will. I was told this is the reason why the 507 won't be brought to Canada as it is exactly the same car as a loaded APX vehicle except for the hood, wheels and exterior door trim. In other words, they are not really changing the car - only the *claimed* power rating. If he is right, then the 507 should produce exactly the same power as the current APX, P31 or tuned C63 cars.

 

No... A stock c63 no pp will make roughly 540hp with most of the popular tuners tune for the m156.. eurocharge claims 538hp, OE tuning and MHP about the same. The 507 has the forged lightened internals like the PP cars yes. It is tuned a little more aggressively to put it at its 507 hp. Its all in the tune and allowing to motor to make more of whats capable of that is all. Adjustments in timing, ignition advance, etc.. This is why I didnt care for the PP in my 2011. Hardly any benefits hence there is no suspension difference in 2011 models, and I knew id be tuning my car so its a waste to pay 2k for the extra 30hp when your aftermarket tune would make it obsolete for half the price..

 

The 507 is more likely 507, whereas the APX, P31 and tuned C63s are really around 507 but conservatively rated at 487 (481 in NA).

 

Thanks Diabolis. Your explanation sounds logical.

 

I read up until here and then you lost me. Must be my Friday attention span.

So with my mods and an updated tune, I should probably be close to 550hp at the crank?

 

No again. Tuned c63's as in "aftermarket tunes", ie eurocharged OE tuning MHP etc, are making more like 535-540 crank. The OEM tune on pp and 507 cars are not as aggressive as an all out aftermarket tune.

 

Excellent responses guys - much appreciated !

 

Have you dynod it recently?

p.s. I'm glad this site isn't like facebook with "likes" and popup notifications. I'd get nothing done lol. I already practically live here.

 

Had it dyno'd a few weeks ago before the Velos tune, been too busy with work and all of the CEL madness to take it back. I have an appointment next week.

 

 

The Powerchip tune gave me +43whp so I'm expecting to gain at least 20 more with Velos.

 

No offense taken at all. Just tried to clarify, from a mobile, which makes for a rather brief message

 

Appreciate the intel. Makes perfect sense since some have said the PP / APX / P31 make the same power as a BS.

 

That is not correct.

The aftermarket-tuned cars are producing more or less the same rear-wheel horsepower figures as the P31/APX cars, which is what the dyno actually measures. The RWHP figures are all somewhere in the 420-440 range, and there is quite a lot of variation between the dynamometers themselves, their state of calibration, the atmospheric conditions at the time (namely air temperature and humidity), even whether there is an external fan at the dyno shop blowing air at the front of the car. Now, manufacturers are always rating the engine crank horsepower, not the actual power delivered to the wheels, and there are significant frictional losses between the crank and the rear wheels (from the transmission, clutch or torque converter, differential, etc. - even the temperature of the oil in the LSD for example will affect its viscosity, which in turn will affect the frictional losses). So - the real question then becomes what is the "universally accepted" percentage of power loss from the crank to the wheels. Aftermarket companies will assume the percentage is greater because it boosts their tune claims, yet to the best of my knowledge not one of them has a proper tune where there are significant HP gains to be had from the P31/APX motor. So - if you want to call it 530HP instead of 507, that's fine, but then they're all putting out more or less the same 530 HP.

Unless the engine is in some way restricted - as it is with the non-P31 cars, a tune on a naturally aspirated car will only give minor variations because there is only so much you can do by changing ignition timing. You have to start porting and polishing the engine internals, changing camshafts to modify valve lift duration, putting in bigger throttle bodies and higher flow fuel injectors, high flow exhausts, etc. in order to achieve actual, verifiable gains. 5HP more or 5HP less on a 500HP car is the difference between a clean or dirty air filter or whether your spark plugs have 200 miles or 2,000 miles on them, a two-degree drop in air intake temperature or a cloud covers (higher relative humidity) vs. dry sunny day. Which, BTW, is exactly why the tuners don't really see any significant performance gains on the P31/APX cars.

 

everything youve said does make perfect sense and i am on track with it but why do owners of pp cars always state nice gains from aftermarket tunes as well. it doesnt add up in that sense..

 

Yes and no. While a tune can change the torque and horsepower curves somewhat, the "work product" essentially remains the same. What a tune can do is change the shape of the curves so to speak so that you get the maximum torque or power at a different point (engine RPM) and/or at a different rate, but the net sum remains the same. In other words, by varying the ignition timing and the air/fuel ratio you can have a steeper power curve at a specific point, but it comes at the expense of power at another spot. If the stock (OEM) tune gives you a linear curve where, for example, you have 70% of available power available from 2500 RPM all the way up to 50000 RPM (I am pulling these numbers out of thin air for illustration purposes only), then a tune can change the delivery so that at 2500 you only have 50% of the available power, but it now all comes in a big "lump" between 3500 and 5000 RPM). In other words, the car is going to deliver less power than it did before at engine speeds below 3500 RPM, but them it will deliver more than it did between 3500 and 5000 RPM. You are changing the maximum peak value of the power, but as a result you're also changing the width of the power band. A street car may be (or, rather, is) tuned so that it has a relatively linear power delivery from just above idle to 3/4 of maximum RPM, whereas a race car (with the same engine and all other things being equal) can be tuned to deliver all of the power in one big dollop at high RPMs only. So, while the power delivery and/or peak horsepower at specific RPMs will change, it comes at the expense of everyday driveability if you will. In the example above, the car will pull stronger between 3500 and 5000 RPM (which you can feel), but it be more sluggish at 2000 RPM than the same car with the OEM tune.

Another thing that a tune can do is tweak the performance for the specific gas that you're putting in the car. While the OEM tune is made to use lower octane gas (which burns hotter and detonates more easily but has less energy per litre than premium gas) and is written for the most common denominator (like 89 octane for example), you can write a tune for, say, 94 octane gas that will advance the ignition timing and run a leaner mixture so that you are able to get more power out of the higher calorie premium gas.

 

Yes totally understand and am very familiar with tuning etc and how these things work. Moving more tq lower into the rpm band would elude a power difference for sure as you described. But I suppose id like to see true whp dynos side by side to compare. With what knowledge ive attained on this platform so far and tunes, I presume a difference with the oem tune being more mild. Lets chalk it up to needing real dyno runs.

 

Diabolis, you have confused me with the comment of MB not bringing the 507 cars to Canada. My brother ordered one and as for as I know, they are arriving here in Aug/Sept.

 

The 507 is definately coming to Canada. It's in all the MB Canada press materials already. As for the P31/APX straight line performance compared to a BS, it's close. The only gap in performance really is the facelift MCT gearbox vs the pre-facelift 7G-Tronic, with the MCT putting down more power to the ground. In terms of P31/APX guys butt dyno reporting a much faster car, that's more to do with the throttle curve. I ran a P31 car when they first came out with my Eurocharged non P31, dead even.